British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Perhaps it's because your diversionary tactics invariably involve breaching the moderators clearly stated rules by trying to shift the focus of the debate onto the pilots. If you answered some of the questions actually put to you you could stay on track, but we all know thats far too difficult, so in your desperation to say something you throw in some entirely spurious and irrelevant comments.
Maybe your time would be spent more productively over on CF, where support is waning fast. Especially from the guy who has just read his contract and found it says:
"Changes to the Terms of your Employment
The Company reserves the right to make reasonable changes to any of your terms of employment from time to time. Such changes may be made by way of a general notice applicable to all employees or by way of specific notice to you."
Oops! Hows that gonna look in court?
Tiramisu - sadly I've flown with a few recently, though they are in a minority.
Maybe your time would be spent more productively over on CF, where support is waning fast. Especially from the guy who has just read his contract and found it says:
"Changes to the Terms of your Employment
The Company reserves the right to make reasonable changes to any of your terms of employment from time to time. Such changes may be made by way of a general notice applicable to all employees or by way of specific notice to you."
Oops! Hows that gonna look in court?
Tiramisu - sadly I've flown with a few recently, though they are in a minority.
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Don't you mean the Anti-BASSA thread... much more appropriate!
So, not having received an answer to my previous question... how does flying 1 down but getting a one-down payment not compromise safety, but working one-down for free does..... I really would like to know.... As will the Judge in Feb.
Unless of course "safety" is only being mentioned to try and scaremonger the public, generate headlines, and try and generate sympathy.
Unless someone comes up with a logical reasoned answer to the above, we can assume it will be laughed out of court....can anyone else speculate on what arguments might be used in court? It's not safety, it's not contractual, it may be a breach of an agreement, but I believe BASSA has been breaking these agreements as well, so all is fair in love and war and all that... It's not about hot towels, surely?!?!?
CB
So, not having received an answer to my previous question... how does flying 1 down but getting a one-down payment not compromise safety, but working one-down for free does..... I really would like to know.... As will the Judge in Feb.
Unless of course "safety" is only being mentioned to try and scaremonger the public, generate headlines, and try and generate sympathy.
Unless someone comes up with a logical reasoned answer to the above, we can assume it will be laughed out of court....can anyone else speculate on what arguments might be used in court? It's not safety, it's not contractual, it may be a breach of an agreement, but I believe BASSA has been breaking these agreements as well, so all is fair in love and war and all that... It's not about hot towels, surely?!?!?
CB
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Fume event:
It's not anti cabin crew, it's people trying to suggest a solution to this stupid plan to have a strike which will lose BA a lot of money & result in even more redundancies for ALL categories of BA employees. Your work colleagues are worried about being unemployed & your pax are worried about the loss of a great airline.
It's not anti cabin crew, it's people trying to suggest a solution to this stupid plan to have a strike which will lose BA a lot of money & result in even more redundancies for ALL categories of BA employees. Your work colleagues are worried about being unemployed & your pax are worried about the loss of a great airline.
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Carnage,
You are right, they are in a minority.
I have experienced it myself and sad to say, they give the rest of us a bad name.
Let's look forward to flying with more A's then!
Vote No to Strike action please!
You are right, they are in a minority.
I have experienced it myself and sad to say, they give the rest of us a bad name.
Let's look forward to flying with more A's then!
Vote No to Strike action please!
Could I add (just for balance) that I have operated about 6 sectors out of LHR in the last month or so, and the relations between the FC and CC have been normal, even with the reduced CC matrix on board.
I think it'll just take a while for it to settle down. I think the old 90/10 rule applies here.Or is it 80/20?
I think it'll just take a while for it to settle down. I think the old 90/10 rule applies here.Or is it 80/20?
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Tomkins & Fume, we do not moderate attitude and we do not moderate opinions.
We moderate post content according to PPRuNe rules.
Posts that comply with the rules => stay.
Posts that don´t => deleted.
Simple, transparent and verifiable.
It might (or might not) interest you that posts deleted are roughly 50-50 pro and contra BASSA´s current stance.
As for Travelling Public´s latest post; no need for anybody to start frothing at the mouth.
He merely describes, with a bit of help from Carnage , the basic tenets of situational leadership as taught to Pursers and CSDs in many airlines.
We moderate post content according to PPRuNe rules.
Posts that comply with the rules => stay.
Posts that don´t => deleted.
Simple, transparent and verifiable.
It might (or might not) interest you that posts deleted are roughly 50-50 pro and contra BASSA´s current stance.
As for Travelling Public´s latest post; no need for anybody to start frothing at the mouth.
He merely describes, with a bit of help from Carnage
, the basic tenets of situational leadership as taught to Pursers and CSDs in many airlines.
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Originally posted by Fume Event
That should be the name of this thread: The Anti-BA Cabin Crew thread
That should be the name of this thread: The Anti-BA Cabin Crew thread
I have learnt more on this thread from our Flight Crew colleagues about the legalities of strike action than from UNITE. I have no qualms about discussing it on board with them either and have always maintained good CRM.
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Well said Tira'
..and I have learnt a great deal about how to best handle/serve/persuade/cajole/praise/correct people by watching the excellence of the vast majority of our CC as they go about their day to day BA duties.
..my only real beef is the unfortunate stance taken by BASSA' s leadership in driving their members towards, IMHO, the abyss. I feel sorry for those who, for whatever reason, choose to believe and follow BASSA's mis-managed lead. Those members deserve better.
GF
..and I have learnt a great deal about how to best handle/serve/persuade/cajole/praise/correct people by watching the excellence of the vast majority of our CC as they go about their day to day BA duties.
..my only real beef is the unfortunate stance taken by BASSA' s leadership in driving their members towards, IMHO, the abyss. I feel sorry for those who, for whatever reason, choose to believe and follow BASSA's mis-managed lead. Those members deserve better.
GF
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I see that a few of my posts have been censored off but a certain strain of thinking is allowed to permeate this thread ie anti BA cabin crew.
That should be the name of this thread: The Anti-BA Cabin Crew thread
That should be the name of this thread: The Anti-BA Cabin Crew thread
I can almost hear you shouting "Infamy, Infamy..."
I think, far from being an anti-CC thread, there is general bewilderment amongst other company staff, the travelling public and other people within the trade, over what this is really all about. These people don't buy the BASSA spin and distasteful war analogies because they simply don't add up.
Those same people have come on here and have put questions to BASSA members and IA supporters for clarification and to give you an opportunity to help us understand your cause.
All they have got back in return is silence, more BASSA soundbites, contradicting "facts" and vicious tongue-lagging.
Stop ignoring the awkward questions and give a straight answer!
It leaves the impression that BASSA is a creaking, self-depracating dinosaur, kicking and screaming itself into extinction, dragging down a company and many other of its employees into a dark era of uncertainty and financial disaster.
BASSA OUT - Common sense & negotiation IN.
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Just answer the questions Fume....pretty please
Tiramisu, don't pander to him!
Fume Event has been asked some very simple but important questions on this thread that we all know he SHOULD know the answers to...and he YET AGAIN refuses to answer!
Is it that he blindly peddles his incredibly blinkered union line to his colleagues even though he knows he cannot back it up or justify it?......
Or is it that he knows that the answers would so obviously illuminate BASSA's deplorable and unjustifiable position.....a position that it would appear is deliberately asking (or is it telling?) the hard-working cabin crew majority to risk their jobs, their livelihoods, their futures and indeed those of ALL of their BA colleagues, TO PROTECT THE CUSHY NUMBER OF JUST A FEW SENIOR HEATHROW BASSA REPS' LIFESTYLES?!
What I find most incredible in this sorry affair is that no-one dares to ask BASSA to justify to its members why it can't answer these simple questions....'you only need to know that you don't need to know, trust no-one but us, we've got your best interests at heart, like we did with the regions, and with Gatwick' etc etc! -
Why has Fume Event refused to post my shortlist of questions on the BASSA forum or on CF? It's not as if anyone's victimised for difference of opinion on that shining beacon of honest & fair discussion.....why not ask your Reps to justify why they are threatening to bankrupt your and my company by answering some basic questions? What have they/you got to hide?
If BALPA couldn't answer even ONE of these questions satisfactorily, the ballot would be off, pure and simple. How can I vote on what is demonstrably rotten information?
I have asked Fume on this thread numerous times for clarification of his and BASSAs untenable position, yet he either goes quiet for a couple of days, or more recently tries to deflect attention from his glaring ignorance by accusing other work groups of anti-cabin-crew sentiment.....like I said last time, save that sort of behaviour for the playground/BASSA forum. Over here, we want reasoned, justified,open and frank adult discussion. This isn't about one work group having a problem with another (although the other fora tell a different story!), it is now, and always has been about BASSA, and its stranglehold on our mutual employer, British Airways and perhaps even more importantly its stranglehold on the individual Cabin-Crew members within BA.
Please do yourself (and your credibility as a poster) a favour by making the next thing that you post here a list of answers to the basic questions that people have directly asked you on this thread....either that or at least an acknowledgement that you cannot answer those important questions, and by implication, that your union, BASSA also cannot, but more importantly WILL NOT answer these questions.......see you in two days time
Fume Event has been asked some very simple but important questions on this thread that we all know he SHOULD know the answers to...and he YET AGAIN refuses to answer!
Is it that he blindly peddles his incredibly blinkered union line to his colleagues even though he knows he cannot back it up or justify it?......
Or is it that he knows that the answers would so obviously illuminate BASSA's deplorable and unjustifiable position.....a position that it would appear is deliberately asking (or is it telling?) the hard-working cabin crew majority to risk their jobs, their livelihoods, their futures and indeed those of ALL of their BA colleagues, TO PROTECT THE CUSHY NUMBER OF JUST A FEW SENIOR HEATHROW BASSA REPS' LIFESTYLES?!
What I find most incredible in this sorry affair is that no-one dares to ask BASSA to justify to its members why it can't answer these simple questions....'you only need to know that you don't need to know, trust no-one but us, we've got your best interests at heart, like we did with the regions, and with Gatwick' etc etc! -
Why has Fume Event refused to post my shortlist of questions on the BASSA forum or on CF? It's not as if anyone's victimised for difference of opinion on that shining beacon of honest & fair discussion.....why not ask your Reps to justify why they are threatening to bankrupt your and my company by answering some basic questions? What have they/you got to hide?
If BALPA couldn't answer even ONE of these questions satisfactorily, the ballot would be off, pure and simple. How can I vote on what is demonstrably rotten information?
I have asked Fume on this thread numerous times for clarification of his and BASSAs untenable position, yet he either goes quiet for a couple of days, or more recently tries to deflect attention from his glaring ignorance by accusing other work groups of anti-cabin-crew sentiment.....like I said last time, save that sort of behaviour for the playground/BASSA forum. Over here, we want reasoned, justified,open and frank adult discussion. This isn't about one work group having a problem with another (although the other fora tell a different story!), it is now, and always has been about BASSA, and its stranglehold on our mutual employer, British Airways and perhaps even more importantly its stranglehold on the individual Cabin-Crew members within BA.
Please do yourself (and your credibility as a poster) a favour by making the next thing that you post here a list of answers to the basic questions that people have directly asked you on this thread....either that or at least an acknowledgement that you cannot answer those important questions, and by implication, that your union, BASSA also cannot, but more importantly WILL NOT answer these questions.......see you in two days time
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just a selection of some of the many unanswered questions....
Flybymerchant keeps asking......
"Why have BASSA....
-refused to look at the BA financial books
-denied the recession
-not consulted the electorate on proposed changes
-not admitted the need for change
-refused to negotiate with the company
-disseminated clearly false information to its members
-not informed the members about the share option that the company offered to the Cabin Crew
-negligently allowed crew to believe they will STILL get paid in a strike
-GROSSLY negligently assured them they CANNOT get fired during a strike
-not educated the members about S.O.S.R....the thing that allows BA, (from any point now on) to send any crew members (i.e. all CSDs if they like) a '90 day letter of termination' whenever it feels like it. Look it up. The only reason it hasn't is because it hasn't been provoked enough yet to justify such draconian measures...something tells me the ogre is starting to get riled (court, strike etc)
-lied to the members about the pilot's paydeal, pilots VR party, WW trying to position BA as a lowcost carrier (?!) etc, etc,
-withheld clearly true/valid information that would allow crew to formulate a rounded and well-informed opinion on matters
-offered a PAYCUT that was not voted for or wanted by cabin crew (or BA!)
etc,etc, I mean, how they expect not to be sued by the members for gross misconduct I don't know. I'm sorry to go on but the list does.....go on...and on....and on"
GOOD LUCK BA CABIN CREW- SAVE OUR COMPANY!!!"
...but never gets any answers
"Why have BASSA....
-refused to look at the BA financial books
-denied the recession
-not consulted the electorate on proposed changes
-not admitted the need for change
-refused to negotiate with the company
-disseminated clearly false information to its members
-not informed the members about the share option that the company offered to the Cabin Crew
-negligently allowed crew to believe they will STILL get paid in a strike
-GROSSLY negligently assured them they CANNOT get fired during a strike
-not educated the members about S.O.S.R....the thing that allows BA, (from any point now on) to send any crew members (i.e. all CSDs if they like) a '90 day letter of termination' whenever it feels like it. Look it up. The only reason it hasn't is because it hasn't been provoked enough yet to justify such draconian measures...something tells me the ogre is starting to get riled (court, strike etc)
-lied to the members about the pilot's paydeal, pilots VR party, WW trying to position BA as a lowcost carrier (?!) etc, etc,
-withheld clearly true/valid information that would allow crew to formulate a rounded and well-informed opinion on matters
-offered a PAYCUT that was not voted for or wanted by cabin crew (or BA!)
etc,etc, I mean, how they expect not to be sued by the members for gross misconduct I don't know. I'm sorry to go on but the list does.....go on...and on....and on"
GOOD LUCK BA CABIN CREW- SAVE OUR COMPANY!!!"
...but never gets any answers
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The big turn off for me and proof of loss of perspective by the union was the quoting of the New England Holocaust Memorial in the paperwork which came with the ballot. The fact that they even think the two things are even remotely near comparison says a lot for the union leadership.
That show of judgement pretty much brings into question the whole union leadership and it's delusional behaviour. Others I've spoken to felt the same.
I think a change of union leadership then a return to the negotiating table is in order.
That show of judgement pretty much brings into question the whole union leadership and it's delusional behaviour. Others I've spoken to felt the same.
I think a change of union leadership then a return to the negotiating table is in order.
Last edited by Golden Ticket; 24th Nov 2009 at 15:54.
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..and for completeness, BASSA (UNITE) have used , in one form or another, references that have links with, Iwo Jima, The Holocaust as well as Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour. 
..and is you rightly point out GT..
..that show of judgement pretty much brings into question the whole union leadership and it's delusional behaviour..
That's it. I'm really going back to lurking.
GF says....no more.
..and is you rightly point out GT....that show of judgement pretty much brings into question the whole union leadership and it's delusional behaviour..
That's it. I'm really going back to lurking.
GF says....no more.
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On my last trip the crew were of mixed views. Some had already voted no
, some thought they should vote yes, but after a discussion with me and the realities of what could happen, decided to vote no
. Unfortunately one remained resolute and could only spout off the BASSA rhetoric "I can't afford to pay my mortgage on the imposed terms..." etc.
So I asked the following questions:
"Why not? Where will you lose money?" Unable to answer
"What do you hope to achieve with a strike?" Unable to answer
"Do you honestly believe WW will back down?" Unable to answer
If you have a vote please USE IT WISELY.
If you vote yes, be prepared to strike. Be prepared to sign a new contract before returning to work. And be prepared to lose your job.
If you abstain, or don't vote, you are contributing to the likelihood of losing your job because only the returned votes count.
If you VOTE NO, then you will enable this company to go on to become the once great and proud airline it has been. And of course you will retain your current contract, and your job.
VOTE WISELY. VOTE NO.
, some thought they should vote yes, but after a discussion with me and the realities of what could happen, decided to vote no. Unfortunately one remained resolute and could only spout off the BASSA rhetoric "I can't afford to pay my mortgage on the imposed terms..." etc.So I asked the following questions:
"Why not? Where will you lose money?" Unable to answer
"What do you hope to achieve with a strike?" Unable to answer
"Do you honestly believe WW will back down?" Unable to answer
If you have a vote please USE IT WISELY.
If you vote yes, be prepared to strike. Be prepared to sign a new contract before returning to work. And be prepared to lose your job.
If you abstain, or don't vote, you are contributing to the likelihood of losing your job because only the returned votes count.
If you VOTE NO, then you will enable this company to go on to become the once great and proud airline it has been. And of course you will retain your current contract, and your job.
VOTE WISELY. VOTE NO.
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Highflyer,
Sadly on my last trip A321 out yesterday and return 767 this morning, all crew were voting YES with the exception of my Purser.
When I tried to talk to a couple of them, there was confusion as to what they were striking for. One of my crew even said that the Monthly Travel Payment was replacing allowances. It just shows that a lot of crew are following sheep and not making an informed decision not having read any of the emails or letters from BF.
Please UNITE and BASSA supporters, quit while you are ahead.
This is your last chance saloon and you won't get another opportunity to talk again. The only option if you strike will be to sign a new contract on new terms and conditions.
Vote NO to Strike Action.
Sadly on my last trip A321 out yesterday and return 767 this morning, all crew were voting YES with the exception of my Purser.
When I tried to talk to a couple of them, there was confusion as to what they were striking for. One of my crew even said that the Monthly Travel Payment was replacing allowances. It just shows that a lot of crew are following sheep and not making an informed decision not having read any of the emails or letters from BF.
Please UNITE and BASSA supporters, quit while you are ahead.
This is your last chance saloon and you won't get another opportunity to talk again. The only option if you strike will be to sign a new contract on new terms and conditions.
Vote NO to Strike Action.
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HiFlyer14
even if all the cabin crew voted no to strike action,the way things are going,I find it highly improbable that BA will ever return to the proud company that it used to be.
even if all the cabin crew voted no to strike action,the way things are going,I find it highly improbable that BA will ever return to the proud company that it used to be.
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Originally posted by Tomkins
even if all the cabin crew voted no to strike action,the way things are going,I find it highly improbable that BA will ever return to the proud company that it used to be.
even if all the cabin crew voted no to strike action,the way things are going,I find it highly improbable that BA will ever return to the proud company that it used to be.
With the reduced product that we serve it would seem so, but you know what, it's not what you serve, but how you serve it. For me it's all in the delivery.
An example was this morning's arrival of the flight I operated to T5 on a 767,off pier (minimal product in-flight). The weather as you know was dreadful, we had several wheelchair user passengers, lots of families with small children on board needing assistance, but with the Flight Crew, Cabin Crew, TRM and ground staff all working together, it was BA at it's Best. I was proud.
So as Highflyer says we can still be the Best, all's not lost yet.
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Could I add (just for balance) that I have operated about 6 sectors out of LHR in the last month or so, and the relations between the FC and CC have been normal, even with the reduced CC matrix on board.
I think it'll just take a while for it to settle down. I think the old 90/10 rule applies here.Or is it 80/20?
I think it'll just take a while for it to settle down. I think the old 90/10 rule applies here.Or is it 80/20?
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If only that was the case Tiramisu
the way I see it c/c do their ultimate best ,and in my oppinion far to often,in product recovery.It is not their primary or secondary role on board,and although we often manage to turn a bad situation around ,the passenger will remember the good service but for them the reason they are paying several thousand pounds for an upgraded experience (in club or first) is to get exactly that.No short- commings.The product is severly lacking and we have and will loose much business in the comming months if things don,t change .
the way I see it c/c do their ultimate best ,and in my oppinion far to often,in product recovery.It is not their primary or secondary role on board,and although we often manage to turn a bad situation around ,the passenger will remember the good service but for them the reason they are paying several thousand pounds for an upgraded experience (in club or first) is to get exactly that.No short- commings.The product is severly lacking and we have and will loose much business in the comming months if things don,t change .
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Marty112 decribes exactly the way Bassa run the operation in BA regarding crewing and disruptions. As an ex BA Capt., on a number of occasions I was unable to continue a legal operation after disruption to get my pax to their destination. This was soley due to BASSA imposed restrictions which BA Management were, and probably still are unwilling to overule.
Luckily, our operation is more robust since we moved to T5 and disruption less frequent. (The good old British weather is still out to get us and dear old LHR can't cope with a gust of wind or a flake of snow so I am sure I am in for an unpleasant week now I have said that!)