British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Flyer
Isn't that why BA proposed rostering the working positions, to (1) reduce time at he briefing and (2) to ensure everyone experienced all positions rather than what happens now, where the senior peoples in the grade only ever work 1 or at the most 2, positions? Plans scuppered by BASSA, iirc?
To have a full discussion to find out the depth of 13 other cabin crew's experience and still include the mandatory elements of the briefing with in 13 mins isn't practical.
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Ancient Observer
You didn't expect a response, did you?
As per a previous post, I have today sent a cheque for £50 to the RAF Benevolent Fund.
I think you were far too quick giving up on that bet Fincastle84, but you certainly erred on the side of gentlemanly. Perhaps you know, like many others, that BASSA cannot answer that question. It has never been part of the 'strategy' (this latter term is meant in the loosest possible sense, of course).
As for the donation to the RAF Benevolent fund, good on you! As a former serviceman myself, I know that will go where it really is needed.
As for the donation to the RAF Benevolent fund, good on you! As a former serviceman myself, I know that will go where it really is needed.
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As far as I'm aware BA have never seriously proposed rostering working positions, the subject was briefly brought up in 1997, but was never pushed.
Rather than BASSA scuppering this, it was more of a case of investing enough money in the software.
The complexity of rostering the huge operation that is BA and it's cabin crew without throwing in the complexity of allocating positions too.
Rather than BASSA scuppering this, it was more of a case of investing enough money in the software.
The complexity of rostering the huge operation that is BA and it's cabin crew without throwing in the complexity of allocating positions too.
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FlyerUK69
Yes, as I was typing I was aware that what the hypothetical manager would have expected from you would have been impractical from a time point of view.
I'm sure you're equally aware that this would make no difference to said manager at all. In his/her view you would have been expected to make the time.( I know, I know!)
I am merely highlighting how strong the custom & practice of choosing working positions is amongst cabin crew.
I can just imagine the stunned silence greeting a CSD who suggests that today you, Mr Grade 1 Bloggs will be working No.7.
As pointed out by Alexandraa, it just never happens - even when customer service would clearly benefit.
I know that you as CSD have to balance crew morale, team building etc. with theoretical 'best practice', and both of those things would go through the floor if you stood up & started allocating positions to an aghast crew.
You & I live in the real world.
How confident are you that your manager does?
I'm sure you're equally aware that this would make no difference to said manager at all. In his/her view you would have been expected to make the time.( I know, I know!)
I am merely highlighting how strong the custom & practice of choosing working positions is amongst cabin crew.
I can just imagine the stunned silence greeting a CSD who suggests that today you, Mr Grade 1 Bloggs will be working No.7.
As pointed out by Alexandraa, it just never happens - even when customer service would clearly benefit.
I know that you as CSD have to balance crew morale, team building etc. with theoretical 'best practice', and both of those things would go through the floor if you stood up & started allocating positions to an aghast crew.
You & I live in the real world.
How confident are you that your manager does?
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Fincastle, Desertia et all,
Your posts are welcome on this 'cabin crew' thread, actually I enjoy reading your contributions. No one has the right to stop anyone from posting except the Moderators.
What some 'precious' individuals forget is that without the passengers, we wouldn't have an airline.
Moderators, apologies for going off topic.
Your posts are welcome on this 'cabin crew' thread, actually I enjoy reading your contributions. No one has the right to stop anyone from posting except the Moderators.
What some 'precious' individuals forget is that without the passengers, we wouldn't have an airline.
Moderators, apologies for going off topic.
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Thankfully my manager lives in the real world, used to be crew so has some idea !!
Luckily my manager also trusts me to do the best I can on the day given the resources available
Luckily my manager also trusts me to do the best I can on the day given the resources available
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and crew wonder why...........
Still crew are insisting that after a JNB diverted from LHR to LGW on Friday morning, that the crew should have been put up at LGW for 2 local nights
I'll give a tenner to the charity of the ops manager choice that made the decision to bus the poor luvvies round to LHR
I'll give a tenner to the charity of the ops manager choice that made the decision to bus the poor luvvies round to LHR
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FLEXSRS wrote.....
I think there is one crucial question that needs to be asked of the BASSA supporters that no one really seems to be asking, and as far as I can tell, the whole scenario depends upon.
Do you accept the need for IFCE to make permanent cost savings?
If you do, then it is just a case of deciding what you want to give up. Work a bit harder, or a bit less pay, or fewer days off, or allow New Fleet for new joiners, or some combination of the above.
If you don't agree, and you think that IFCE should be the only department that don't have to make any savings, and you should keep your Ts&Cs untouched, then that is fine, that is your opinion, and it would be refreshing if you just came out and admitted to that.
Do you accept the need for IFCE to make permanent cost savings?
If you do, then it is just a case of deciding what you want to give up. Work a bit harder, or a bit less pay, or fewer days off, or allow New Fleet for new joiners, or some combination of the above.
If you don't agree, and you think that IFCE should be the only department that don't have to make any savings, and you should keep your Ts&Cs untouched, then that is fine, that is your opinion, and it would be refreshing if you just came out and admitted to that.
Anyone???????????
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Da Dog
It is possible you know the full story on this diversion, but likely that you do not.
Personally I would be quite surprised if it were the crew that 'insisted' on two local nights!
Far more likely to have been due to BASSA intervention. This will not have gone unnoticed at the very highest levels in BA.
This company cannot survive when the lunatics are running the asylum.
It is possible you know the full story on this diversion, but likely that you do not.
Personally I would be quite surprised if it were the crew that 'insisted' on two local nights!
Far more likely to have been due to BASSA intervention. This will not have gone unnoticed at the very highest levels in BA.
This company cannot survive when the lunatics are running the asylum.
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FlyerUK69
Regarding CSD's not allocating the most experienced crew to the most pressurised positions:
FlyerUK69 wrote:
Would it be unfair of me to suggest, though, that as you never allocate the No.7 position, you are merely leaving it to chance?
Is this really "finding a happy medium"?
If there was a high-profile Customer Service disaster on a flight, and the CSD had allowed the most inexperienced crew member to operate No7, I do not think it would be unreasonable of BA to start asking some pretty searching questions of the CSD.
FlyerUK69 wrote:
It's a fine balance for CSD's to find a happy medium getting the "want" and the "skill" right to benefit all
Is this really "finding a happy medium"?
If there was a high-profile Customer Service disaster on a flight, and the CSD had allowed the most inexperienced crew member to operate No7, I do not think it would be unreasonable of BA to start asking some pretty searching questions of the CSD.
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flyeruk69
Luckily my manager also trusts me to do the best I can on the day given the resources available
This is why I am so disappointed by the threat that all this could be ruined by some union numpties.
Last edited by fincastle84; 8th Dec 2009 at 18:54. Reason: punc.
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I personally think it's good for everyone to have a go at doing a variety of roles onboard. Otherwise for example, junior crew are more experienced in doing duty frees and senior crew might be more experienced in doing PAs/galleys. If a senior crew then has to do duty frees for whatever reason they panic.... and then a poor more junior member of crew may want some experience doing a certain position and never gets the oppurtunity.
Tiramisu as you are an EF SCCM, how is the 767 going if you have been on it with no PSR down the back, haven't been on anything but Airbus varients since the changes!!
Tiramisu as you are an EF SCCM, how is the 767 going if you have been on it with no PSR down the back, haven't been on anything but Airbus varients since the changes!!
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Fincastle84
FlyerUK69 said:
Fincastle84 replied:
One view would be that, on this hypothetical day, the CSD hasn't made the best use of the resources available...
Surely there must be times every now and again where certain crew members would be best placed in certain positions (for whatever reason).
But it never happens for customer service reasons. Never. Ever. It is unheard of.
CSD's should be free to get the best out of their crew - if this was happening there would occasionally be crew allocated a position. Random surely cannot always be optimum?
But CSDs, as we all do, operate within the straightjacket of BASSA/BA agreements - and the straightjacket has been there for so long that that they can't even see it any more.
Allocate crew positions occasionally to improve customer service? Don't be ridiculous - it's impossible.
Burn the Heretic!!!
Luckily my manager also trusts me to do the best I can on the day given the resources available
That is all that is expected from we SLF
Surely there must be times every now and again where certain crew members would be best placed in certain positions (for whatever reason).
But it never happens for customer service reasons. Never. Ever. It is unheard of.
CSD's should be free to get the best out of their crew - if this was happening there would occasionally be crew allocated a position. Random surely cannot always be optimum?
But CSDs, as we all do, operate within the straightjacket of BASSA/BA agreements - and the straightjacket has been there for so long that that they can't even see it any more.
Allocate crew positions occasionally to improve customer service? Don't be ridiculous - it's impossible.
Burn the Heretic!!!
Last edited by dave747436; 8th Dec 2009 at 19:22.
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Dave
One view would be that, on this hypothetical day, the CSD hasn't made the best use of the resources available... Today 19:56
Obviously I never had to pander to the unions! Equally I had to work around some pretty average senior officers.
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dave747436
The Law as it stands in England (by the way the piece of legislation you quoted was 1992 - need to check for updates)
"Collective agreements are made between employers and Trade Unions. They are not intended to be legally enforceable unless in writing and stated to be so but this is rare. Collective agreements may be binding as between the workers and an employer if incorporated into the workers' contracts by express reference or implied by custom and practice."
And...
"Usually, collective agreements are not in themselves legally enforceable. However, parts of collective agreements such as pay rates, or references to agreements, may be inserted into the employment contracts of individual employees. Because individual employment contracts are legally enforceable, many collective agreements are indirectly underpinned by law."
Oh dear........
"Collective agreements are made between employers and Trade Unions. They are not intended to be legally enforceable unless in writing and stated to be so but this is rare. Collective agreements may be binding as between the workers and an employer if incorporated into the workers' contracts by express reference or implied by custom and practice."
And...
"Usually, collective agreements are not in themselves legally enforceable. However, parts of collective agreements such as pay rates, or references to agreements, may be inserted into the employment contracts of individual employees. Because individual employment contracts are legally enforceable, many collective agreements are indirectly underpinned by law."
Oh dear........
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A Lurker, your at it again........... playing the armchair legal expert, when you have by your own admission admitted that you know nothing about the Law.
I would leave it up to the Judge in February, that way at least you won't get egg on your face.
4468, I'm with you I doubt the crew wanted to stay at LGW but I can assure you the very fact that they were bussed around to LHR has caused uproar
I would leave it up to the Judge in February, that way at least you won't get egg on your face.
4468, I'm with you I doubt the crew wanted to stay at LGW but I can assure you the very fact that they were bussed around to LHR has caused uproar
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Da Dog
You know absolutely nothing of me, of what I know and what I don't know - so please spare me your immature remarks.
You now say 'leave it to the Judge in February' best you trawl back through the countless posts on here from many of your 'colleagues' and remind them of the same.
All I will say is that I have brought something to this argument which is valid, relevant and worth debating...
You now say 'leave it to the Judge in February' best you trawl back through the countless posts on here from many of your 'colleagues' and remind them of the same.
All I will say is that I have brought something to this argument which is valid, relevant and worth debating...
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fincastle84
What will IA achieve?
I personally hope it will achieve a mutually acceptable settlement between both parties.
In fact I personally hope this will be achieved prior to any IA taking place
Right I'm off to watch X Factor - hope Danyl wins through....
I personally hope it will achieve a mutually acceptable settlement between both parties.
In fact I personally hope this will be achieved prior to any IA taking place
Right I'm off to watch X Factor - hope Danyl wins through....