BA and Project Columbus
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Interesting times indeed!
A few facts.
Comparing the salary and terms with flt crew will get you nowhere
BA would have already worked out that any strike would be illegal, therefore this will not happen as it will bankrupt BASSA.
The lack of effort toward LGW SF a few yrs back will seal the fate of LHR
BA loved the lack of unity between bases, see previous point
Ex GLA base, ex call centre staff, etc as mentioned. No relevance on seniority as BA will do what they like as its a 'volunteer' new fleet.
There will be more than enough new people who will go for the fleet.
Enjoy the prem trips while you can! Hkg,JNb etc will become min rest under national CAA law, not BASSA's rules
Finally, I dont want this to happen either, but ignoring the facts and talking about other groups T and C's will just speed up the process and be a gift to BA. It may not happen, but get your head out of the sand and take a practical approach and be prepared in advance.
A few facts.
Comparing the salary and terms with flt crew will get you nowhere
BA would have already worked out that any strike would be illegal, therefore this will not happen as it will bankrupt BASSA.
The lack of effort toward LGW SF a few yrs back will seal the fate of LHR
BA loved the lack of unity between bases, see previous point
Ex GLA base, ex call centre staff, etc as mentioned. No relevance on seniority as BA will do what they like as its a 'volunteer' new fleet.
There will be more than enough new people who will go for the fleet.
Enjoy the prem trips while you can! Hkg,JNb etc will become min rest under national CAA law, not BASSA's rules
Finally, I dont want this to happen either, but ignoring the facts and talking about other groups T and C's will just speed up the process and be a gift to BA. It may not happen, but get your head out of the sand and take a practical approach and be prepared in advance.
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Which ever side of the door "1000 to go" works he has listed some quite realistic points which are the basis of what BA are pushing..
Trying to compare pilots and cabin crew T & C's is the same as the Nurse wanting the surgeons T & C's...
Lets concentrate on the arguable issues and not ones we cant win ......
Trying to compare pilots and cabin crew T & C's is the same as the Nurse wanting the surgeons T & C's...
Lets concentrate on the arguable issues and not ones we cant win ......
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For the second time...
Comparing (and squabbling about) T's & C's or anything between Flight and Cabin crew is a pointless task, and serves the interests of nobody - except, of course, your employer, who will always benefit from "Divide & Rule".
Please try and raise your game above this bickering - it is very dull.
Comparing (and squabbling about) T's & C's or anything between Flight and Cabin crew is a pointless task, and serves the interests of nobody - except, of course, your employer, who will always benefit from "Divide & Rule".
Please try and raise your game above this bickering - it is very dull.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Top Bunk. I get the impression that you are either BA flight deck crew or senior BA cabin crew close to retirement. Why? because your post suggests that cabin crew will have to work for peanuts in order to protect your pension. Teamwork? Your attitude is that of a, (fortunately), dying breed. I'm open to change, properly reasoned and negotiated change, not change to save somebody elses financial requirements or indeed to cover the cost of senior managements acculimation of international fines.
Last year BA made an unprecedented profit - with my supposedly expensive terms and conditions. This year, despite the worst crisis ever faced by airlines, BA is still set to make a profit, (after settling fines). Project Columbus, or as now know FOC (Focus On Costs), is a long term project. The current economic market is perfect for announcing the requirement to change terms and conditions. After 9/11 the British goverment saw the opportunity to bury bad news. It seems BA see the opportunity to announce it.
Last year BA made an unprecedented profit - with my supposedly expensive terms and conditions. This year, despite the worst crisis ever faced by airlines, BA is still set to make a profit, (after settling fines). Project Columbus, or as now know FOC (Focus On Costs), is a long term project. The current economic market is perfect for announcing the requirement to change terms and conditions. After 9/11 the British goverment saw the opportunity to bury bad news. It seems BA see the opportunity to announce it.
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PC
You seem to have read my posts in the wrong way.
I am playing devils advocate here, trying to outline some facts, rather than play any smoke and mirrors type of game that Bassa/Unite are playing.
I am merely pointing out a different view, I express no view as to the the result of negotiations over which I have no influence.
I am only saying that in the current economic climate (forget last years 'manipulated' results) that all sections within the company need to deliver industry standard levels of the measurable parameters. The BA leaked document would suggest that in terms of cost per unit, BA Cabin Crew are far from industry benchmark.
I am likewise sure that many other BA areas are similarly inefficient.
As to my position, it is irrelevant, but visible....
You seem to have read my posts in the wrong way.
I am playing devils advocate here, trying to outline some facts, rather than play any smoke and mirrors type of game that Bassa/Unite are playing.
I am merely pointing out a different view, I express no view as to the the result of negotiations over which I have no influence.
I am only saying that in the current economic climate (forget last years 'manipulated' results) that all sections within the company need to deliver industry standard levels of the measurable parameters. The BA leaked document would suggest that in terms of cost per unit, BA Cabin Crew are far from industry benchmark.
I am likewise sure that many other BA areas are similarly inefficient.
As to my position, it is irrelevant, but visible....
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Last year BA made an unprecedented profit - with my supposedly expensive terms and conditions. This year, despite the worst crisis ever faced by airlines, BA is still set to make a profit, (after settling fines).
A profit is the shareholder's compensation for putting up their capital: at present, they have had no dividend for a stretch of 7 years until 2008, and (if investing in 1999) had a halving of their capital value. Having a profit does not mean it is available for the taking by the employee group - the financial backers have a return to make as well!
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I've put on my tin hat and kevlar vest...
Regardless of anyone's feelings, CC on some contracts are paid way above what is industry standard. I'm not wanting people to lose money, but we have to look at this without emotions.
Both WW and EF t&c's make for ineffective work, ie being inflexible. What we need is more flexibility. An example being the long turn-around at LHR for EF during trips. Do you really need a 2,5 hour break? I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a break, but if your inbound aircraft is delayed and you only have 2 hrs 15min for your break you lose the rest of the trip (I know, not all the time), or the flight is delayed.
We can't survive as a company by making our customers wait. It's as simple as that.
Bassa has said "no way" to the hourly rate, without even knowing what the rate would be, if there would be an increase in basic, night stop allowance, etc. I personally think the hourly pay could be a good thing, as WW could then get the bidding system, same as the other fleets. The company save a heck of a lot of money on not paying destination payment (seriously, I've never understood that one - the company having to pay you extra for turning up for work), as all routes would earn the same.
Bidding would be less complicated for EF as well (on hourly rate), as crew could bid for places they'd like to go instead of bidding for the trips with the most box payments just to earn the money.
Bassa uses emotive language at every turn and sometimes stretches the truth. This is very unfortunate, as it makes them look ridiculous when the truth comes out (I've seen it a few times in the last few years).
Some crew are saying that they shouldn't be forced to change contracts, and it's the company's fault for wasting money on this that and the other. That is now irrelevant. It's done, dusted, and although remembered, we can't do anything about it. We're in the middle of a rescession, whether you want to believe it or not. Billions are being given in aid to the banks as I write. The problem for us is that the goverment will not bail us out if it comes to it. Companies are going bust right, left and centre, and we're not immune, no matter how healthy we look on paper.
Do you think that the crew from Zoom et al thought they'd lose their job when they did? Probably not. A company would never publish if they were in financial difficulties, as that would send investors running for the hills and the banks sweating and demanding their money asap.
Basically, what I'm trying to say (in a long winded way) is to look at this with a business head on your shoulders. I don't necessarily agree with what the company wants to do, but I understand why they want to do it.
It's not all bad. As to what I said earlier, there are positive aspects to this draft, you just have to dig through the emotions and predictions of doom to find it.
I personally think that if Bassa wants to be taken seriously (by company, crew and outside world), they need to grow up and put facts on the table. They stamp their feet too soon too often. They walk out of meetings when they don't agree with something. How can you discuss issues when you're not there? I'm not saying lay down and say "yes, ok, fine" to whatever the company wants, but at least stay and discuss it. It will give you respect.
Incoming......
Gg
Sorry for spelling mistakes
Ps. To save anyone accusing me, no I'm not management
Regardless of anyone's feelings, CC on some contracts are paid way above what is industry standard. I'm not wanting people to lose money, but we have to look at this without emotions.
Both WW and EF t&c's make for ineffective work, ie being inflexible. What we need is more flexibility. An example being the long turn-around at LHR for EF during trips. Do you really need a 2,5 hour break? I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a break, but if your inbound aircraft is delayed and you only have 2 hrs 15min for your break you lose the rest of the trip (I know, not all the time), or the flight is delayed.
We can't survive as a company by making our customers wait. It's as simple as that.
Bassa has said "no way" to the hourly rate, without even knowing what the rate would be, if there would be an increase in basic, night stop allowance, etc. I personally think the hourly pay could be a good thing, as WW could then get the bidding system, same as the other fleets. The company save a heck of a lot of money on not paying destination payment (seriously, I've never understood that one - the company having to pay you extra for turning up for work), as all routes would earn the same.
Bidding would be less complicated for EF as well (on hourly rate), as crew could bid for places they'd like to go instead of bidding for the trips with the most box payments just to earn the money.
Bassa uses emotive language at every turn and sometimes stretches the truth. This is very unfortunate, as it makes them look ridiculous when the truth comes out (I've seen it a few times in the last few years).
Some crew are saying that they shouldn't be forced to change contracts, and it's the company's fault for wasting money on this that and the other. That is now irrelevant. It's done, dusted, and although remembered, we can't do anything about it. We're in the middle of a rescession, whether you want to believe it or not. Billions are being given in aid to the banks as I write. The problem for us is that the goverment will not bail us out if it comes to it. Companies are going bust right, left and centre, and we're not immune, no matter how healthy we look on paper.
Do you think that the crew from Zoom et al thought they'd lose their job when they did? Probably not. A company would never publish if they were in financial difficulties, as that would send investors running for the hills and the banks sweating and demanding their money asap.
Basically, what I'm trying to say (in a long winded way) is to look at this with a business head on your shoulders. I don't necessarily agree with what the company wants to do, but I understand why they want to do it.
It's not all bad. As to what I said earlier, there are positive aspects to this draft, you just have to dig through the emotions and predictions of doom to find it.
I personally think that if Bassa wants to be taken seriously (by company, crew and outside world), they need to grow up and put facts on the table. They stamp their feet too soon too often. They walk out of meetings when they don't agree with something. How can you discuss issues when you're not there? I'm not saying lay down and say "yes, ok, fine" to whatever the company wants, but at least stay and discuss it. It will give you respect.
Incoming......
Gg
Sorry for spelling mistakes
Ps. To save anyone accusing me, no I'm not management
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I was going to ask something similar Ozzie.
Glamgirl,
You mentioned bidding on shorthaul, they already do bid.
Then, you mentioned box payments in the same sentence.
There's no such thing on shorthaul.
And nothing is "done and dusted". Not quite sure what you meant by that.
(Apologies for not being able to work out how to copy posts yet.!
)
Glamgirl,
You mentioned bidding on shorthaul, they already do bid.
Then, you mentioned box payments in the same sentence.
There's no such thing on shorthaul.
And nothing is "done and dusted". Not quite sure what you meant by that.
(Apologies for not being able to work out how to copy posts yet.!
)
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13,
I'm fully aware that EF has a bidding system. Apologies for calling the allowances by the wrong name. Breakfast/lunch/dinner allowance or whatever they're called is what I meant. Hope this clarifies.
Gg
I'm fully aware that EF has a bidding system. Apologies for calling the allowances by the wrong name. Breakfast/lunch/dinner allowance or whatever they're called is what I meant. Hope this clarifies.
Gg
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Box payments, meal allowances, completely different ..!!!
You can't possibly be crew, so don't, please, tell us what we should accept.
People have lives, whichever fleet they're on, for god's sake.!!
Most people I know would like to have more control over WHEN they work.
It's not all about the money, despite what people think.
You can't possibly be crew, so don't, please, tell us what we should accept.
People have lives, whichever fleet they're on, for god's sake.!!
Most people I know would like to have more control over WHEN they work.
It's not all about the money, despite what people think.
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13,
I am actually CC, believe it or not. I know everyone has lives to live and not everyone is in it for the money. I do, however have friends on EF who purely bid to get as many meal allowances as possible to earn as much money as possible. Nothing wrong with that as such, but they have uttered a wish to feel able to go to other destinations which may not have as "high" value as what they're bidding for now.
To keep it clear, I'm not trying to tell you or anyone what to choose and accept. All I'm doing is putting it in a different light, to allow for individuals to think for themselves instead of listening to Galley FM and/or unions alone. I wouldn't dream of telling yourself or anyone in this position what to do, as that would be ridiculous.
Gg
I am actually CC, believe it or not. I know everyone has lives to live and not everyone is in it for the money. I do, however have friends on EF who purely bid to get as many meal allowances as possible to earn as much money as possible. Nothing wrong with that as such, but they have uttered a wish to feel able to go to other destinations which may not have as "high" value as what they're bidding for now.
To keep it clear, I'm not trying to tell you or anyone what to choose and accept. All I'm doing is putting it in a different light, to allow for individuals to think for themselves instead of listening to Galley FM and/or unions alone. I wouldn't dream of telling yourself or anyone in this position what to do, as that would be ridiculous.
Gg
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It could become more efficient and sometimes crew do bend their T&C's to suit them.
I have seen crew begging over the desk to let them keep the rest of their trip (I believe it was to GVA) even though the inbound flight had been delayed and it meant they had to go straight to the aircraft. No problem for them! On another occassion, the crew refused to do it because it was "only a there and back to MAN", and the inbound trip had been delayed with only a few minutes.
Still, these allowances and payments do make up a HUGE amount of the pay check, and some months are a real struggle (spare me the comment of going shopping and using the crew card). If you get a month of DEL, BLR, MIA and IAH, it's not that easy!
I have seen crew begging over the desk to let them keep the rest of their trip (I believe it was to GVA) even though the inbound flight had been delayed and it meant they had to go straight to the aircraft. No problem for them! On another occassion, the crew refused to do it because it was "only a there and back to MAN", and the inbound trip had been delayed with only a few minutes.
Still, these allowances and payments do make up a HUGE amount of the pay check, and some months are a real struggle (spare me the comment of going shopping and using the crew card). If you get a month of DEL, BLR, MIA and IAH, it's not that easy!
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um glamgirl, another correction. whilst we no longer have the CAT lounge, we still do have CAT payments. I know, I have 5 of them on my Feb roster! may I ask what fleet you're on, you seem to have little idea about how LHR works