BA and Project Columbus
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Why do so many contributors to this forum seem to want BA cabin crew to have their terms and conditions of employment reduced to the slave labour levels of other operators? Just because employment benefits have been destroyed by many of the locost airlines doesn't mean that all companies have to follow by example.Different markets require different products and related costs,that is proved by many industries.If cost was the only consideration everyone would drive korean cars and not german ones,clearly this is not the case. BA's revenues are far greater per passenger than those of airlines,whose salaries and benefits are being compared,surely not a logical comparison. In difficult times,companies ask employees to make temporary concessions in pay or working practices.Sadly,when business conditions improve,these concessions are never re-instated,the staff concessions become permanent.In contrast,as a result of these cost savings,board members see their bonuses and share option packages soar,leaving the employees as the loosers.Change in any business is a necessity,what seems to be the pretext of any change at BA is that the employees bare the pain and the leadership team take the gain.Far from gloating at reduced living standards for thousands of employees,emphasis should be given to realistic ideas for improving productivity and finding real cost savings,which must be available in such a huge operation.Remember,even when times were good and profits flowed in year on year,corporate greed continued to erode employees terms and conditions,just look at new contracts,introduced when the airline was flourishing,eroding workers pay and rewarding those at the top.Share driven companies will never stop attempting to find ever cheaper ways of providing their products and services,the main purpose to reward share holders and directors.Be under no illusion that anything is ever done to the benefit of humble employees.Enough from me and good luck to all BA cabin crew in what will be a tough time ahead.
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Cabin crew agreements
Me again,regarding crew adhering to so called "outdated and 1970's style agreements".In times of disruption,all sensible individuals,both crew and management would use common sense and reason to minimise inconvenience to customers,the operation and themselves.Where flexibility is possible,but witheld due to some agreement as opposed to an operational directive,there must be an underlying reason.Maybe the alleged instances in previous posts are a direct result of crew/management relations being at such an appalling level.Given that cabin crew are awaiting the columbus announcements,supposedly attacking pay and conditions,it comes as no surprise that cooperation is not forthcoming.Companies waving the stick and threatening employees is no way to treat them,then expecting them to pull out all the stops when the operation is crumbling.Management should think long and hard and reflect on the consequences of any proposals.A contented workforce makes a company,demoralise them and the consequences will be dire.
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The events of the last few days seem at odds with the friendly,professional and easy going group of staff whom I have worked with over the years.
What is such a shame about this is how the poor old customer gets royally stuffed ! The vast majority of crew do the job reliably and with really good grace . To go down the road of what the job is worth would put many of us on a very sticky wicket indeed( cancel seniority lists anyone?!).
The bad apples are really few and far between and to be found in all walks of life,certainly either side of the flight deck door.
What is such a shame about this is how the poor old customer gets royally stuffed ! The vast majority of crew do the job reliably and with really good grace . To go down the road of what the job is worth would put many of us on a very sticky wicket indeed( cancel seniority lists anyone?!).
The bad apples are really few and far between and to be found in all walks of life,certainly either side of the flight deck door.
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BA crew are on the best deal in the industry any they're not content?
- perhaps they have,and they can't wait?
Management should think long and hard and reflect on the consequences of any proposals
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Bermudatriangle. You are quite correct.
BA has lost legal credibility, bags, premium passengers and now income. But of most importance is the loss of good will. And across most departments, which partly explains why ground staff left when their shifts finished during the height of the recent disruption. In times of crisis any company relies on the good will of their employees.
Overstress. Wrong. I may be on the best deal in the industry but I'm still content. It is the fact that the company are considering relegating my deal to a lower league which is causing discontent.
BA has lost legal credibility, bags, premium passengers and now income. But of most importance is the loss of good will. And across most departments, which partly explains why ground staff left when their shifts finished during the height of the recent disruption. In times of crisis any company relies on the good will of their employees.
Overstress. Wrong. I may be on the best deal in the industry but I'm still content. It is the fact that the company are considering relegating my deal to a lower league which is causing discontent.
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I see from another 'crewforum' that Bassa members are complaining that they were brought home after just one night at the diversion, rather than 2MBTs as per their agreement.
One crewmember who says that's what they wanted to do, and didn't feel the need for 2 nights is being lectured that if they don't take those 2 nights in every case, then BA will start planning LAs, SFOs, JNBs etc with only one night stop!
The 2 situations are so clearly different - disruption costs the company massively in cash and customer satisfaction terms, so the priority for us all is to resurrect the operation asap. The priority is not the employee!!!
That's why the pilots, who have very similar industrial agreements take min rest then fly. And without the fear that the company would use such exceptional circumstances as a precedent to impose changes on our agreement. We still have 2 nights in LA and SFO!
Cabin crew need to start taking charge of their own destiny, establish from the top (WW) that no alleviation during disruption would be used to justify changes to planned schedules, then tell Bassa that's what they want to do.
They need to behave and be treated as adults, not children.
One crewmember who says that's what they wanted to do, and didn't feel the need for 2 nights is being lectured that if they don't take those 2 nights in every case, then BA will start planning LAs, SFOs, JNBs etc with only one night stop!
The 2 situations are so clearly different - disruption costs the company massively in cash and customer satisfaction terms, so the priority for us all is to resurrect the operation asap. The priority is not the employee!!!
That's why the pilots, who have very similar industrial agreements take min rest then fly. And without the fear that the company would use such exceptional circumstances as a precedent to impose changes on our agreement. We still have 2 nights in LA and SFO!
Cabin crew need to start taking charge of their own destiny, establish from the top (WW) that no alleviation during disruption would be used to justify changes to planned schedules, then tell Bassa that's what they want to do.
They need to behave and be treated as adults, not children.
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restrictive work practises. Really???
Having been caught up in the snow/delays, I was once again asked by my Captain to work out our (cabin crews that is) hours. The outcome was that even with a 4 man flt. crew, the cabin crew had more flexibility & the ability to go longer than our tech crew, even using full Captains discretion.
Now PLEASE don't take this as an attack on my tech crew colleagues. They have their terms/conditions/rules/regulations to work to, & I fully support them. I assume after all that the rules are based around safety & fatigue limits, & I'd much rather have tech crew who are awake to fly me around.
In fact, the last 3 or 4 times I've had to work out our hours, the tech crew has always been more limited than the cabin crew.
Also, come about midnight on Sunday, when we were trying to get out of LHR, after about 3+ hrs of waiting, we were informed that now the tug drivers/bus drivers & other ground staffs shift had finished & we were effectively down to a "skeleton shift". This caused much frustration to my Captain, who was doing everything possible to keep things moving.
So then, in timeline order, so to speak, first the ground staff went home, then the tech crew woulde have been next on their limits, & LASTLY the cabin crew would have gone out of hours. OK yes, if we had managed to depart LHR (we didn't), the cabin crew would have been paid some extra for it, but surely thats better for the customers and the airline than the other depts who all hit their limits BEFORE the cabin crew.
Just to re-state, the purpose of my post is NOT to have a pop at other depts, but rather to highlight the fact that cabin crews working practises & agreements are nowhere near as restrictive as some here believe.
Matt.
Now PLEASE don't take this as an attack on my tech crew colleagues. They have their terms/conditions/rules/regulations to work to, & I fully support them. I assume after all that the rules are based around safety & fatigue limits, & I'd much rather have tech crew who are awake to fly me around.
In fact, the last 3 or 4 times I've had to work out our hours, the tech crew has always been more limited than the cabin crew.
Also, come about midnight on Sunday, when we were trying to get out of LHR, after about 3+ hrs of waiting, we were informed that now the tug drivers/bus drivers & other ground staffs shift had finished & we were effectively down to a "skeleton shift". This caused much frustration to my Captain, who was doing everything possible to keep things moving.
So then, in timeline order, so to speak, first the ground staff went home, then the tech crew woulde have been next on their limits, & LASTLY the cabin crew would have gone out of hours. OK yes, if we had managed to depart LHR (we didn't), the cabin crew would have been paid some extra for it, but surely thats better for the customers and the airline than the other depts who all hit their limits BEFORE the cabin crew.
Just to re-state, the purpose of my post is NOT to have a pop at other depts, but rather to highlight the fact that cabin crews working practises & agreements are nowhere near as restrictive as some here believe.
Matt.
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In fact, the last 3 or 4 times I've had to work out our hours, the tech crew has always been more limited than the cabin crew.
The concern with industrial practises over the last few days has not been about your duty day, but was regarding disruption after diverting, with cabin crew insisting on the same 2 nights off that they would have had if the diversion had been a scheduled destination.
The agreement is not fit for purpose as mass diversions strand cabin crews and passengers for days in remote airports. Nightmare!
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You're aghast at it Flinters??
I have to work in it!
Serves them bloody well right if BA sack the lot of them and then invite them to re-apply for their old jobs on new T's & C's, with each application based on past performance and conduct.
That's what happens in the REAL world kiddies
I have to work in it!
Serves them bloody well right if BA sack the lot of them and then invite them to re-apply for their old jobs on new T's & C's, with each application based on past performance and conduct.
That's what happens in the REAL world kiddies
Mate,, Why don't you Stick to Thomson Air ( That is what they call you these days, isn't it??? ) You know very little of what is and has been going on within BA for a long time now. I'm been ivolved in it for the last 11 years now and although there are 0NE or TWO outdated agreements, we are not the over-paid primadonnas everyone on this thread thinks we are. I challenge ANYONE to accept a 40 % pay cut any not be shouting and screaming about it!!!!
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If BA does "sack the lot of them" your be paying for them though your tax as unemployment benefit!
Blah Blah 1970`s British Leyland, Coal Mines etc
You may have been annoyed or not in the best frame of mind, but the industrial unrest during this period is slightly more than the unions fault.
BL was a poor amalgamation of several of the UK`s car manufactors, which produced the same model, ie Austin amd Morris and a model such as the Cambridge Oxford A60 range, Triumph, Rover etc. It was plagued and the cars weren`t much cop either. Harvest Gold was so popular not only on the cars but the front doors I believe.
Coal Mines. You wanna try that for a job? The strikes were due to the closure of the mines during the 80`s.
Something now days perhaps in hindsight should have stayed open (with talk of UK power supplies in a fine balance).
Whilst modernisation would not have been a bad thing perhaps the ways it was done was.
Maggie closed anything with a union during the 80`s. Hence way there is so little manufacturing in the UK. One surving thing was the railways, although little was spent on it. Private railways a good thing?
IF and only if in years to come what has happen in the last year or so it comes out that the 1980`s policys have help fuel the Global mess with Banker greed will you be blaming them?
Blah Blah 1970`s British Leyland, Coal Mines etc
You may have been annoyed or not in the best frame of mind, but the industrial unrest during this period is slightly more than the unions fault.
BL was a poor amalgamation of several of the UK`s car manufactors, which produced the same model, ie Austin amd Morris and a model such as the Cambridge Oxford A60 range, Triumph, Rover etc. It was plagued and the cars weren`t much cop either. Harvest Gold was so popular not only on the cars but the front doors I believe.
Coal Mines. You wanna try that for a job? The strikes were due to the closure of the mines during the 80`s.
Something now days perhaps in hindsight should have stayed open (with talk of UK power supplies in a fine balance).
Whilst modernisation would not have been a bad thing perhaps the ways it was done was.
Maggie closed anything with a union during the 80`s. Hence way there is so little manufacturing in the UK. One surving thing was the railways, although little was spent on it. Private railways a good thing?
IF and only if in years to come what has happen in the last year or so it comes out that the 1980`s policys have help fuel the Global mess with Banker greed will you be blaming them?
