BA and Project Columbus
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Perhaps because if things don't adapt everyone will have to go? When you're just about the only department in the company that hasn't dragged it's working practices into this century (and we're 8 years into it now) it can hardy be a surprise when everyone else starts to ask why they are carrying you.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Please! 
That's the stupidest excuse on earth, BA is hardly on the verge of bankruptcy, and crew salaries are only a small portion of an airline's expenses anyway. It is not by saving on our salaries that the company will avoid losses. There are better ways to save/make money like, say, good management? It is easy to mismanage an airline then blaming it on the CC because they earn too much.
When management want to save money, it is always our way they are looking, because they know it is relatively easy. Let's say no for once, and let them look another way.
That's the stupidest excuse on earth, BA is hardly on the verge of bankruptcy, and crew salaries are only a small portion of an airline's expenses anyway. It is not by saving on our salaries that the company will avoid losses. There are better ways to save/make money like, say, good management? It is easy to mismanage an airline then blaming it on the CC because they earn too much.
When management want to save money, it is always our way they are looking, because they know it is relatively easy. Let's say no for once, and let them look another way.
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So, to continue playing "Devil's Avocado" for a few minutes:
Look up "management" in a dictionary and then tell me who runs the company. Fair has nothing to do with it.
Market forces, that's who. Again, Right and Wrong has no bearing on it. I had a job once where I used to make double what I do now. The market changed and I had to move on and accept that the good times were over. Reality rearing its ugly head I'm afraid.
Because in spite of what BASSA may want to beieve, Cabin Crews do not run airlines. Again, an easy answer.
Way of the world mate. British Leyland workers made the same demands all through the '70s. They were still demanding them when the company failed as the competition overtook them and left them for dead.
Inserting your fingers in your ears and saying "La La La, I'm not listening" won't help.
Good. That's the way it should be. I really hope you get a favourable resolution. But all I'm saying is, have a back-up plan in case it goes the way of the pear.
I bet they're quaking in their boots at the prospect of that. Take a look at the queues of wannabes behind you who have never known the good times. They see the current deals on the table and they'll happily take a slice of it if you don't want it. You can train new starters to become competent Cabin Crew very quickly.
Yep. I can really see that happening too.
Originally Posted by Ludo
...So, basically any management who wants to slash my T&C (BA or else, I'm not BA) is entitled to do that, and all I'd have to do is find another job?
... Who says that management is right in wanting to slash and I'm wrong wanting to keep my T&C?
Why should I go and they stay? That would be easy, huh?
It is obvious that the more we let them get away with slashing anything they want, they'll be back for more next round.
Inserting your fingers in your ears and saying "La La La, I'm not listening" won't help.
I'll tell you something: I'm staying, I'm talking and discussing about what doesn't seem right
..and I'm prepared to take action if necessary.
They can always change job if they don't like it that way 
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So are you saying cabin crew should be exempted from all cost saving measures? Lets look at who's changed their work practices in BA in the last 5 years:
Terminal staff: major reforms to work practices prior and post T5.
GTS drivers: Major reforms prior T5 and outsourcing of some work to 3rd party operators:
Ramp staff: New work practices and removal of old T4/T1 procedures.
TRMs: New work practices for T5.
Pilots: Switch to hourly rate prior T5, major reform to work practices last year and ongoing.
Managers: one third of all senior managers axed. A further 400+ given severance on 31st Dec 08. Junior managers required to reapply for their own jobs.
Customer Service: Jobs cut, call centres closed and relocated to Newcastle.
Everyones been chipping in so you can hardly say they are only coming after cabin crew for savings. It's not crew salaries that cripple the BA operation, it's their rigid inflexibility. It's that inflexibility which means we fly empty jumbos back from Singapore stranding our passengers when BKK airport was occupied. It's that which means we can't make more money by putting a 777 on the Moscow route because the crew won't do a there and back without 2 days off. It's that which means we have to cancel flights every time there's disruption on the East coast of the US because BASSA won't let flights leave LHR one crew member down. The idea of 'just saying no for once' is ludicrous as thats been BASSAs stock answer for the last decade.
Terminal staff: major reforms to work practices prior and post T5.
GTS drivers: Major reforms prior T5 and outsourcing of some work to 3rd party operators:
Ramp staff: New work practices and removal of old T4/T1 procedures.
TRMs: New work practices for T5.
Pilots: Switch to hourly rate prior T5, major reform to work practices last year and ongoing.
Managers: one third of all senior managers axed. A further 400+ given severance on 31st Dec 08. Junior managers required to reapply for their own jobs.
Customer Service: Jobs cut, call centres closed and relocated to Newcastle.
Everyones been chipping in so you can hardly say they are only coming after cabin crew for savings. It's not crew salaries that cripple the BA operation, it's their rigid inflexibility. It's that inflexibility which means we fly empty jumbos back from Singapore stranding our passengers when BKK airport was occupied. It's that which means we can't make more money by putting a 777 on the Moscow route because the crew won't do a there and back without 2 days off. It's that which means we have to cancel flights every time there's disruption on the East coast of the US because BASSA won't let flights leave LHR one crew member down. The idea of 'just saying no for once' is ludicrous as thats been BASSAs stock answer for the last decade.
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Im afraid some here saying, BA can afford it so why should I, over my dead body, not in my lifetime, go for another dept first. You are all amazingly naive!
Nobody wants to lose their jobs or take a pay cut. We all agree there.
Its about savings by increasing flexibility and reducing complexity. The losers will be CC with 'nice' monied rosters and CC who say 'its not in the agreement' etc.
Years of No No No will ensure a swift correction to CC agreements by introducing the new fleet. No one is forcing you to change over so just stay as you are! The money routes will go to new aircraft/routes and there is nothing you can do about it.
The profitability of BA is key for all our survival and everyone has to chip in. If you are not going to change fleets, why worry!!
Just wait a few years until you are in the minority having 'low money' trips and you move over.
Please keep saying to the realists, blah blah blah, or just go stick your head in the sand, or both............Good luck
Im not flight crew before the mud starts being slung by the clever ones
Nobody wants to lose their jobs or take a pay cut. We all agree there.
Its about savings by increasing flexibility and reducing complexity. The losers will be CC with 'nice' monied rosters and CC who say 'its not in the agreement' etc.
Years of No No No will ensure a swift correction to CC agreements by introducing the new fleet. No one is forcing you to change over so just stay as you are! The money routes will go to new aircraft/routes and there is nothing you can do about it.
The profitability of BA is key for all our survival and everyone has to chip in. If you are not going to change fleets, why worry!!
Just wait a few years until you are in the minority having 'low money' trips and you move over.
Please keep saying to the realists, blah blah blah, or just go stick your head in the sand, or both............Good luck
Im not flight crew before the mud starts being slung by the clever ones
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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I am no Communist, but funny how when pay cuts are bandied about, they rarely seem to be across the board. Those at the bottom of the pile that have the most to lose, are targeted first.
Rightly or wrongly, those at the bottom of the pile will always be targeted first as they are the easiest to replace if they leave because the new terms and conditions don't suit them.
This is not unique to airlines. A person working on a checkout is easier to replace than a qualified accountant hence gets a lower salary.
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what is coming is coming I suppose. personally I am more than willing to work harder and be more flexible to maintain my salary. what disappoints me are some of the almost gleeful attitudes out there that we might lose our benefits and T+Cs. and as a new contract crew member on eurofleet, trust me the cash aint that great, friends in different airlines earn more. and yes I know I can go and find a new job (and thanks for that particularly transparent piece of advice by the way!) but I actually like working for BA for all sorts of reasons. but I have to say that enjoyment is gradually being eroded and not just because of the managments determination to downgrade our pay. as a cabin crew community we are supportive of each other and still, as the front line staff, offer great customer service. 16 years in the business and having worked for a few different airlines I can honestly say that the BA cabin crew are the best I have worked with. what always disappoints me is our relationship (or lack of) with the flight crew. at every other airline I've worked for we have all been one big team, always got along and always supported each other no matter what side of the door we worked on. not so at BA and I will never understand that
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Oh... Ten West ...
Now... let it be said (by me) this person has the right idea...As I look out of my window (nice view) I see a BIG change coming. NO, not change...BUT SHAKE-UP.. and those members of the CC community who can not or will not accept change, had better take a very long good look at themselves. Cos in this area CCc (cabin crew costs) are higher for BA than any other comparable airline. It's got to be said... the gavey train is coming to an end.
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Well, we can only hope that reason prevails and everyone compromises to some degree so that no-one loses out more than they have to.
And "Compromise" is another new word that BASSA are going to have to learn unfortunately for them.
Still, added to "No" it means they'll have doubled their vocabulary.
And "Compromise" is another new word that BASSA are going to have to learn unfortunately for them.
Still, added to "No" it means they'll have doubled their vocabulary.
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A lot of people here seem to think along the lines that if other airlines don't pay as much for their cabin crew, why should BA? It's not really fair to compare BA to other airlines as the nature of our flying and service is very different to many airlines. The pay is broken down into:
Basic: starts low but increases with increments (nothing wrong with rewarding your staff for loyal service)
Box payments: payments for long duties (nothing wrong with that, if I did a 14 hour shift at Sainsburys, I'd expect to be financially compensated. because of our geographic location, we fly more longer routes. bunk rest does not count, this is often allocated when you least need it)
Destination payment: payment for acknowledged 'difficult' flights (on a get-what-you're-given roster, if two crew are reporting for flights, one to Miami and one to Houston, two VERY different passenger profiles, it's fair enough to financially reward the crew member going to Miami as they are going to be working a lot harder).
Back to back payment: doing two trips in a row to increase crew productivity (these are awfully tiring, mentally and physically, so crew are financially compensated for this and given hotac)
Meal allowances: common among most long haul airlines and are paid in local currency to cover the cost of eating and drinking in the hotel downroute (fair enough, how many employers send their staff away on company duties without covering their expenses in some way)
Our closest competitor for crew patterns and routes would probably be Virgin Atlantic. From experience, their top complaints are pay and fatigue. The way I see it, if Virgin choose not to look after their crew as well as they could, why should BA crew suffer for it?
You could compare our patterns to the likes of EK and EY but their crew are given a tax free salary and housing or housing allowance, so it pretty much balances out.
Where we DO need to compromise however is on issues of flexibility. Having spent time in customer relations (ironically, one of the lowest paid jobs in the company) I have seen time and again where a cancellation could have been avoided. Lack of flexibility also cuts at crew pay and disrupts rosters, not to mention the havoc it wreaks in the operation and the costs involved. This is definitely an area where we have to be more competitive. It's not so much paying crew less but using crew better. That has to come from both sides.
Basic: starts low but increases with increments (nothing wrong with rewarding your staff for loyal service)
Box payments: payments for long duties (nothing wrong with that, if I did a 14 hour shift at Sainsburys, I'd expect to be financially compensated. because of our geographic location, we fly more longer routes. bunk rest does not count, this is often allocated when you least need it)
Destination payment: payment for acknowledged 'difficult' flights (on a get-what-you're-given roster, if two crew are reporting for flights, one to Miami and one to Houston, two VERY different passenger profiles, it's fair enough to financially reward the crew member going to Miami as they are going to be working a lot harder).
Back to back payment: doing two trips in a row to increase crew productivity (these are awfully tiring, mentally and physically, so crew are financially compensated for this and given hotac)
Meal allowances: common among most long haul airlines and are paid in local currency to cover the cost of eating and drinking in the hotel downroute (fair enough, how many employers send their staff away on company duties without covering their expenses in some way)
Our closest competitor for crew patterns and routes would probably be Virgin Atlantic. From experience, their top complaints are pay and fatigue. The way I see it, if Virgin choose not to look after their crew as well as they could, why should BA crew suffer for it?
You could compare our patterns to the likes of EK and EY but their crew are given a tax free salary and housing or housing allowance, so it pretty much balances out.
Where we DO need to compromise however is on issues of flexibility. Having spent time in customer relations (ironically, one of the lowest paid jobs in the company) I have seen time and again where a cancellation could have been avoided. Lack of flexibility also cuts at crew pay and disrupts rosters, not to mention the havoc it wreaks in the operation and the costs involved. This is definitely an area where we have to be more competitive. It's not so much paying crew less but using crew better. That has to come from both sides.
Last edited by VS-LHRCSA; 21st Jan 2009 at 20:45.
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Very succinctly put. Keep the money for sure, but be more flexible. Come to work with an attitude of "Can Do" rather than "The agreement says No" and things will be better for everyone.
I've met CC who have openly told me that they hate flying and will do everything they can to get out of a duty. Why the Hell become cabin crew if that is your mindset?? Because they've been allowed to, that's why.
So we're agreed then folks. Pay everyone fairly, look after everyone and in return benefit from some flexibility and a workforce that wants to work so that the company succeeds and guarantees eveyone's future (Well, as much as you ever can in this industry).
Excellent.
Now, are you going to tell the dinosaurs or am I?
I've met CC who have openly told me that they hate flying and will do everything they can to get out of a duty. Why the Hell become cabin crew if that is your mindset?? Because they've been allowed to, that's why.
So we're agreed then folks. Pay everyone fairly, look after everyone and in return benefit from some flexibility and a workforce that wants to work so that the company succeeds and guarantees eveyone's future (Well, as much as you ever can in this industry).
Excellent.
Now, are you going to tell the dinosaurs or am I?
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Yes ! you may ask ...
Yes, of course you may ask... but will I tell you. NO. ! ... Why .. Because, does it help.. No, on this site I can put over my own options/views (informed or other wise) on this matter. Ok, I am gonner say it. CC (some) are paid way over the odds, in the current market. And I think it's way over due that a correction is made. Time to cut the wheat form the chaff..
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On the Wrong Side of the Door !
DA...that's cos it takes six (give or take a bit of faffing around) weeks to train a dolly .. (F.O.C) and oh, let me guess how long to train to be a Nigel !.. and ya want the same pay..look 16 years ... and ya love it great. You've got mates working for other airlines, getting more dosh...Oh I wold love to know WHY .. or WHAT your other reasons for working for BA are .. Did ya ... did ya jion up for the dosh... NA,, ?
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VH-LHRCSA: IAH and MIA are probably not the best examples as both of them are entitled to Des Payment. Also take into consideration that the MIA flights are compensated with having an additional cabin crew member on those flights.
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Since when does IAH get a destination payment? Bloody typical, never got one at WW LGW.
OK, MIA vs DFW, then. Failing that, ATL. You get my point. I've used the US flights because:
1. They are in the same country (for sake of comparison) and the argument can't be clouded by down-route issues.
2. They are less controversial than others, the thread can't be distored down the whole 'racism' track.
I am well aware of the 'extra' crew member. We reliquished the Number 16 after 9/11, except on the 'destination payment' routes. It can still be a bun-fight on these routes and the necessity for the 16 just proves my point. Off the top of my head, I would say we get the most complaints (relevant to crew issues) from MIA and probably MRU but don't quote me on that. The 'extra' crew member is a commercial decision for the sake of customer service.
OK, MIA vs DFW, then. Failing that, ATL. You get my point. I've used the US flights because:
1. They are in the same country (for sake of comparison) and the argument can't be clouded by down-route issues.
2. They are less controversial than others, the thread can't be distored down the whole 'racism' track.
I am well aware of the 'extra' crew member. We reliquished the Number 16 after 9/11, except on the 'destination payment' routes. It can still be a bun-fight on these routes and the necessity for the 16 just proves my point. Off the top of my head, I would say we get the most complaints (relevant to crew issues) from MIA and probably MRU but don't quote me on that. The 'extra' crew member is a commercial decision for the sake of customer service.
Last edited by VS-LHRCSA; 21st Jan 2009 at 22:11.
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The destination payment and your arguements for it are frankly absurd. Payment for harder flights indeed! Flt crew will want a payment for a harder approach under your logic.
Get rid of all the this and that payments, add it all up, divide it into an hourly flying rate and thats it. More flexiblility, less sickness, and an even share for all. Destinations therefore become equal.
BA will save due to the focus away from 'where am I going/how much' and everyones a winner. Surely you can see this! Your list of payments and rationale behind it show you as a BA CC ostrich
I guess the issue is BA will try to reduce the overall 'pot'......
Get rid of all the this and that payments, add it all up, divide it into an hourly flying rate and thats it. More flexiblility, less sickness, and an even share for all. Destinations therefore become equal.
BA will save due to the focus away from 'where am I going/how much' and everyones a winner. Surely you can see this! Your list of payments and rationale behind it show you as a BA CC ostrich
I guess the issue is BA will try to reduce the overall 'pot'......
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1000 to go. I think you've got me wrong. I am far from a 'head in the sand, over my dead body' crew member, I'm just explaining the payment types and the rationale behind them. I'm doing this in good humour, not having a go, or being on the defensive, just explaing the facts as I see them.
The point of my previous posts was to question the claim that just because Airline X and Airline Y don't pay certain payments, why should BA? Most airlines have some sort of basic plus benefits scheme, many of them different to BA. QFUK pay sector pay, BA don't. Other airlines pay grooming allowances, BA don't. Some airlines give you a taxi home after a long duty, BA don't. Some crew earn significant commissions from their buy-on-board product. At BA, with some exceptions, commission are generally neither here nor there. Some airlines pay you extra to work in the premium cabins, BA don't.
In a nutshell, this is what works for us. These payments are relative to type of flying we do. Who else does enforced back to backs. Apart from Virgin, who else does 4 sector Australias?
It's the type of flying. When I was on charter, I would earn £30 for a TFS night return, around USD$800 for a 9 day CUN and up to £3000 for 28 day round-the-world trip. Some charter companies didn't do round the world charter, should I be begrudged my allowances just because we got that contract instead of Airtours? We got an extra day off for doing a TLV return because they were so hard going. Should I be penalised for that? Jetstar crew do MEL-DPS-MEL in a single day trip, back of the clock, no crew rest. Should BA crew be forced to do LHR-BOS-LHR because JQ do something similar?
I do take your point about the destination payments, however, they can make up for a very low allowance on some of these flights. We all remember the 6 day HRE, with £62 in allowances. With an hourly rate, it would probably come out in the wash anyway.
I can see your point of view and once I get the all clear to fly again, I will consider joining a new 'mid-fleet' if it means flexibility for me but you can't expect someone to do, say, a 9 day 4 sector SYD, or a 5 day JKF/JFK without being appropriately compensated, whether it be by allowances or an hourly rate. No matter what the airline.
The point of my previous posts was to question the claim that just because Airline X and Airline Y don't pay certain payments, why should BA? Most airlines have some sort of basic plus benefits scheme, many of them different to BA. QFUK pay sector pay, BA don't. Other airlines pay grooming allowances, BA don't. Some airlines give you a taxi home after a long duty, BA don't. Some crew earn significant commissions from their buy-on-board product. At BA, with some exceptions, commission are generally neither here nor there. Some airlines pay you extra to work in the premium cabins, BA don't.
In a nutshell, this is what works for us. These payments are relative to type of flying we do. Who else does enforced back to backs. Apart from Virgin, who else does 4 sector Australias?
It's the type of flying. When I was on charter, I would earn £30 for a TFS night return, around USD$800 for a 9 day CUN and up to £3000 for 28 day round-the-world trip. Some charter companies didn't do round the world charter, should I be begrudged my allowances just because we got that contract instead of Airtours? We got an extra day off for doing a TLV return because they were so hard going. Should I be penalised for that? Jetstar crew do MEL-DPS-MEL in a single day trip, back of the clock, no crew rest. Should BA crew be forced to do LHR-BOS-LHR because JQ do something similar?
I do take your point about the destination payments, however, they can make up for a very low allowance on some of these flights. We all remember the 6 day HRE, with £62 in allowances. With an hourly rate, it would probably come out in the wash anyway.
I can see your point of view and once I get the all clear to fly again, I will consider joining a new 'mid-fleet' if it means flexibility for me but you can't expect someone to do, say, a 9 day 4 sector SYD, or a 5 day JKF/JFK without being appropriately compensated, whether it be by allowances or an hourly rate. No matter what the airline.
Last edited by VS-LHRCSA; 22nd Jan 2009 at 03:08.