BA and Project Columbus
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Please try and raise your game a little, preferably above the level of the previous post. Anecdotal evidence of why people either side of the flight deck door are *!%^^&*'s of some kind is not really helpful to anybody. Any group of people will contain both good and bad - generalizing about the group based on either one end of the spectrum, or the other, is a waste of time.
BA crew should have more interesting contributions to make than grumbling about pilot pay - I look forward to reading it here...
BA crew should have more interesting contributions to make than grumbling about pilot pay - I look forward to reading it here...
Join Date: Jul 2006
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I'm not after any sympathy. Certainly not from individuals (these were pilots) that for no reason at all, at a restaurant, open their mouth and say that cabin crew are overpaid and underworked. That's it.
Junior trash
Join Date: Nov 1999
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I dont think any of us want any of our crew to suffer financially or otherwise. When this eventually is over I hope some of the crew will look at their union and ask if they actually did them any favours.
You cant say no to everything for so long whilst peddling half truths and some very definite lies to bolster your case without putting yourselves firmly in the sights of any CEO worth their salt. A gradual top down streamlining would almost certainly have prevented this full on attack. The costs of the meal/box allowance system and the insane restrictions on short haul productivity could have been gently removed over the last 10 years. Instead WW now has the opportunity to not just fix these issues but massively cut average T+Cs too.
You cant say no to everything for so long whilst peddling half truths and some very definite lies to bolster your case without putting yourselves firmly in the sights of any CEO worth their salt. A gradual top down streamlining would almost certainly have prevented this full on attack. The costs of the meal/box allowance system and the insane restrictions on short haul productivity could have been gently removed over the last 10 years. Instead WW now has the opportunity to not just fix these issues but massively cut average T+Cs too.
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Yes shorthaul should/could be more productive.
Average Shorthaul crew member flies an average of 600 - 680 hrs pa.
Average longhaul crew member 880.
I don't thinkwe should be paid any less. I don't know any other job where your t and c and take home pay decrease every few years.
I also believe that if this does go through the pilots will be next. Why pay the higher end of the industry standard.
99 % of UK carriers have well trained high calibre pilots. And most of those would like to earn BA pilot salaries. Esp if they are young and would have the op to reach the higher end of the BA Capt scales.
But at the end of the day I don't think and dept in BA is currently safe.
Average Shorthaul crew member flies an average of 600 - 680 hrs pa.
Average longhaul crew member 880.
I don't thinkwe should be paid any less. I don't know any other job where your t and c and take home pay decrease every few years.
I also believe that if this does go through the pilots will be next. Why pay the higher end of the industry standard.
99 % of UK carriers have well trained high calibre pilots. And most of those would like to earn BA pilot salaries. Esp if they are young and would have the op to reach the higher end of the BA Capt scales.
But at the end of the day I don't think and dept in BA is currently safe.
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They'd need to be young because they'd be waiting 15+ years for a command now. Which is why BA actually have quite a hard time finding suitable experienced candidates in the numbers they required before the slowdown. And remember a BA salary doesn't go as far if you have to live in the South East or commute 200+ miles from your home for a short haul job. Thats why they can barely get anyone experienced to accept a short haul contract.
Junior trash
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I also believe that if this does go through the pilots will be next. Why pay the higher end of the industry standard.
99 % of UK carriers have well trained high calibre pilots. And most of those would like to earn BA pilot salaries. Esp if they are young and would have the op to reach the higher end of the BA Capt scales.
99 % of UK carriers have well trained high calibre pilots. And most of those would like to earn BA pilot salaries. Esp if they are young and would have the op to reach the higher end of the BA Capt scales.
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Moo
My italics.
My sources are at considerable variance from yours. The longhaul figure is in the ballpark, but the shorthaul number is much closer to 500 hours per annum.
Average Shorthaul [cabin]crew member flies an average of 600 - 680 hrs pa.
Average longhaul crew member 880.
Average longhaul crew member 880.
My sources are at considerable variance from yours. The longhaul figure is in the ballpark, but the shorthaul number is much closer to 500 hours per annum.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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It is no good to keep going back to what FC earn. It has nothing to do with CC or anyone else for that matter. CC can be recruited with great ease and they are still queuing up to join. NECC course started today at CBK and another next Monday with a couple penciled in for March. It seems to matter little to new starters about T and C's in fact few have a clue that such things exist?
Join Date: Nov 2007
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And therein, HZ123, lies a problem for current cabin crew. There is an illusion about the role of cabin crew in general and a high attrition rate. Those who have a real insight into the role, who find the reality to their liking will stay flying whilst it suits there lifestyles and in many cases will become new recruits at BA. A quick census onboard and a majority of crew have worked for another airline before moving to BA. They stay. Those without previous flying experince have a steep learning curve and often move on. And it is these people BA seem happy to recruit from now on. Staying a couple of years, not becoming a pension liability, no graduating to higher pay increments. From a business point of view the books look good. And there is a queue to join.
Loyalty costs. Walsh is happy to gamble that long term the executive club will be happy to see the demise of the long serving, all knowing, reliable and second natured crew member. He may well be right and therein lies my problem. My experience counts for nothing.
Loyalty costs. Walsh is happy to gamble that long term the executive club will be happy to see the demise of the long serving, all knowing, reliable and second natured crew member. He may well be right and therein lies my problem. My experience counts for nothing.
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Not sure where the figure of 500 hours for Eurofleet cabin crew might come from. I'm full time, do an average of 3 x 3 days trips a month, the rest there and backs, and my planned hours to end of Jan are 669.40. I know there are those who would bring the average down (the early MAN club for example), but equally, there are those who work more than me (those who do 8 sector 3 day, and 6 sector 2 day trips).
I know that doesn't add much to this debate, but just wanted to point this out.
I know that doesn't add much to this debate, but just wanted to point this out.
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those who do 8 sector 3 day, and 6 sector 2 day trips
If the crews are being made more efficient then the head count can be lowered and BA have to pay fewer people.
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Well I guess that's what Columbus is out to achieve. Personally, and I know of quite a few crew who agree with me, I'm prepared to work harder. But I'm not prepared to take a pay cut.
Just out of interest, how do you do a 4 day 14 sector trip? As far as I know, BA pilots don't do that. I'll double check that with my friend who's an Airbus SFO though. Certainly the pilots on the BUD/TXL 3 day trip I did the other day weren't doing anything like that. It was 4 sectors for them too!
Just out of interest, how do you do a 4 day 14 sector trip? As far as I know, BA pilots don't do that. I'll double check that with my friend who's an Airbus SFO though. Certainly the pilots on the BUD/TXL 3 day trip I did the other day weren't doing anything like that. It was 4 sectors for them too!
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We work differently and are rewarded differently, so end of really.
I am Short Haul crew, and my hours are almost spot on with Moo's upper estimate of the 680 Hours
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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As far as I know, BA pilots don't do that.
HF (Airbus Capt)
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Used to 5 sector days out of Birmingham, and nothing theoretically to stop them ex LGW or LHR.
Now, remind me, why can cabin crew do a LHR-ARN-LHR with a 45 minute turnaround (for example) but not an ARN-LHR-ARN on the same aircraft?
Good luck, but BASSA, I feel, are about to be hung out to dry by their historical intransigence coming home to roost.
Now, remind me, why can cabin crew do a LHR-ARN-LHR with a 45 minute turnaround (for example) but not an ARN-LHR-ARN on the same aircraft?
Good luck, but BASSA, I feel, are about to be hung out to dry by their historical intransigence coming home to roost.
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F55
Natch, of course.. You aren't gonna do 5 two hour sectors with an 0600 start! But a 1200 start with 5 x 45 min sectors would probably work (unless you are LHR SH cabin crew! - in which case 3 sectors (without a 3 hour rest) would be just too much).
Just to say, I understand the desire of current crew to maintain he status quo re earnings etc, but that I understand (and agree with) the company's desire to have a competative product to protect our future pensions!
Anyway, what I say will not change things; but apparently there is someone (ex-senior CC manager, now VP American Ops) travelling around upsettin gcrews saying that it is a done deal and that a matter of weekd will see it in. He is also reported as saying that the temp LH crews have been told to 'hang on to their uniforms for abother 2-3 months'.
Read into that what you wish/or not.
All I can say is that we live in interesting times.
What is now may not well be so in mid 2009, be you cabin crew or flight crew!
Natch, of course.. You aren't gonna do 5 two hour sectors with an 0600 start! But a 1200 start with 5 x 45 min sectors would probably work (unless you are LHR SH cabin crew! - in which case 3 sectors (without a 3 hour rest) would be just too much).
Just to say, I understand the desire of current crew to maintain he status quo re earnings etc, but that I understand (and agree with) the company's desire to have a competative product to protect our future pensions!
Anyway, what I say will not change things; but apparently there is someone (ex-senior CC manager, now VP American Ops) travelling around upsettin gcrews saying that it is a done deal and that a matter of weekd will see it in. He is also reported as saying that the temp LH crews have been told to 'hang on to their uniforms for abother 2-3 months'.
Read into that what you wish/or not.
All I can say is that we live in interesting times.
What is now may not well be so in mid 2009, be you cabin crew or flight crew!