BA and Project Columbus
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wrong!
There should be some discretion available, to the crew themselves depending on the circumstances. eg. no of pax , time of day, hotel facilities etc.
But is there really a need for 2 local nights after a diversion........ ffs
There should be some discretion available, to the crew themselves depending on the circumstances. eg. no of pax , time of day, hotel facilities etc.
But is there really a need for 2 local nights after a diversion........ ffs
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Between a rock & a hard place.
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 15 Likes
on
7 Posts
LU17.
Can I say it has been a pleasure to work with the temps on WW and I do hope you are re-employed as soon as possible. You are clearly dedicated to BA because I believe your treatment thus far has been well below what should be expected. For instance you and your colleagues not knowing if you will be re-employed whilst new people are being recruited and new courses are starting in March.
Unfortunately this is the low disregard our current ICE management have for cabin crew. And unless BA and BASSA can bang heads and rebuild some form of trust it is likely to continue. Many of the views you will see on here and on the crew forum are from the extremeties. A small handful of contributors out of the 13000 or so employed.
My hope is that you do return and that you return with decent conditions of employment. That is where BASSA are involved.
Can I say it has been a pleasure to work with the temps on WW and I do hope you are re-employed as soon as possible. You are clearly dedicated to BA because I believe your treatment thus far has been well below what should be expected. For instance you and your colleagues not knowing if you will be re-employed whilst new people are being recruited and new courses are starting in March.
Unfortunately this is the low disregard our current ICE management have for cabin crew. And unless BA and BASSA can bang heads and rebuild some form of trust it is likely to continue. Many of the views you will see on here and on the crew forum are from the extremeties. A small handful of contributors out of the 13000 or so employed.
My hope is that you do return and that you return with decent conditions of employment. That is where BASSA are involved.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: job centre
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wrong!
There should be some discretion available, to the crew themselves depending on the circumstances. eg. no of pax , time of day, hotel facilities etc.
There should be some discretion available, to the crew themselves depending on the circumstances. eg. no of pax , time of day, hotel facilities etc.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: north of heathrow
Age: 55
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glamgirl,
I know of one crew who were due to operate home from AAA, a longhaul flight due to have a box payment. They were diverted to BBB somewhere in europe, so obviously they lost their box payment 'cos their duty was not long enough. No complaining, just a fact. They then spent quite a few hours at the airport helping the groundstaff and pax, doing what they could.They haven't got sny extra for that, another fact. They eventually got to an hotel, when one could be found for them, long after they would have arrived back at LHR. Please don't begrudge them a few drinks and some high spirits in the bar, that's a way of winding down after what would have been a long, day. It would have been a long day anyway, but the disruption, the not knowing what's going on would all make it feel a lot longer.
They may have been in a city they hadn't been in before, that's a bit exciting, for some of us that's why we joined up.
By the way they didn't have 2 local nights, and also I'm not in BASSA.
So three crews spent all evening going on about how much money the disruption has earnt them..?? What a boring conversation that must have been!!
Yeah right...!!
I know of one crew who were due to operate home from AAA, a longhaul flight due to have a box payment. They were diverted to BBB somewhere in europe, so obviously they lost their box payment 'cos their duty was not long enough. No complaining, just a fact. They then spent quite a few hours at the airport helping the groundstaff and pax, doing what they could.They haven't got sny extra for that, another fact. They eventually got to an hotel, when one could be found for them, long after they would have arrived back at LHR. Please don't begrudge them a few drinks and some high spirits in the bar, that's a way of winding down after what would have been a long, day. It would have been a long day anyway, but the disruption, the not knowing what's going on would all make it feel a lot longer.
They may have been in a city they hadn't been in before, that's a bit exciting, for some of us that's why we joined up.
By the way they didn't have 2 local nights, and also I'm not in BASSA.
So three crews spent all evening going on about how much money the disruption has earnt them..?? What a boring conversation that must have been!!
Yeah right...!!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
13,
Good for the crew you're talking about, well done to them.
The crews I was talking about were drunk, boasting, swearing and being a pain in the back side to hotel staff and us crew who were sober and operating (by giving us stick for where we're based to name one). Some of them said "no way are we flying back until xxhours, the company can $%*& off".
How is that representing the company? Being professional?
I'm no kill joy, far from it, but there's a limit as to how much "fun" and "winding down" you can do. You're still on duty and have a responsibility towards the company.
To the person who said about making up agreements on the day. I don't believe in making new rules on an hourly basis. I agree with using common sense and discretion (not necessarily as defined in moa). Bring the aircraft back after a local night (minimum rest achieved - at least as long as preceding duty). Then have another day off in lieu. No cabin service, how hard can it be? Doing this ONE day doesn't mean you'll be doing it forever. It would be "going the extra mile". Can you imagine being the ground staff member who has to tell hundreds of pax "sorry, you can't fly home/to your meeting etc because the crew needs 2 local nights?
Remember, we're in the middle of a recession. We need as many customers as possible. End of story.
Gg
Good for the crew you're talking about, well done to them.
The crews I was talking about were drunk, boasting, swearing and being a pain in the back side to hotel staff and us crew who were sober and operating (by giving us stick for where we're based to name one). Some of them said "no way are we flying back until xxhours, the company can $%*& off".
How is that representing the company? Being professional?
I'm no kill joy, far from it, but there's a limit as to how much "fun" and "winding down" you can do. You're still on duty and have a responsibility towards the company.
To the person who said about making up agreements on the day. I don't believe in making new rules on an hourly basis. I agree with using common sense and discretion (not necessarily as defined in moa). Bring the aircraft back after a local night (minimum rest achieved - at least as long as preceding duty). Then have another day off in lieu. No cabin service, how hard can it be? Doing this ONE day doesn't mean you'll be doing it forever. It would be "going the extra mile". Can you imagine being the ground staff member who has to tell hundreds of pax "sorry, you can't fly home/to your meeting etc because the crew needs 2 local nights?
Remember, we're in the middle of a recession. We need as many customers as possible. End of story.
Gg
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glamgirl,
Do you believe that the crew members in question were bringing the Company's name into disrepute in a hotel where their stay was paid for by their employer? Do you believe they were being foul and abusive to a fellow employee? There are actions you can take if you were offended by this and it appears that you clearly were.
Do you believe that the crew members in question were bringing the Company's name into disrepute in a hotel where their stay was paid for by their employer? Do you believe they were being foul and abusive to a fellow employee? There are actions you can take if you were offended by this and it appears that you clearly were.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I've followed this thread from a distance and am aghast at the attitude of some of the militants who wouldn't last five minutes in our/my sector of the industry (bizjets). I've been accused of being too picky when choosing crew and sometimes felt guilty for being so demanding but if that spared me from the likes of the dinosaurs described here I feel vindicated.
Take a good look at industrial relations history particularly that of the 70's. British Leyland, the shipyards, coal mines. Wonder why they don't exist any more?
You're digging your own graves.
Take a good look at industrial relations history particularly that of the 70's. British Leyland, the shipyards, coal mines. Wonder why they don't exist any more?
You're digging your own graves.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 553
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're aghast at it Flinters??
I have to work in it!
Serves them bloody well right if BA sack the lot of them and then invite them to re-apply for their old jobs on new T's & C's, with each application based on past performance and conduct.
That's what happens in the REAL world kiddies.
I have to work in it!
Serves them bloody well right if BA sack the lot of them and then invite them to re-apply for their old jobs on new T's & C's, with each application based on past performance and conduct.
That's what happens in the REAL world kiddies.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: job centre
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glamgirl, well done. 101/2 hour minimum rest and you've witnessed all that going on in the hotel.
Your absolutely right though, inappropriate behaviour needs to be addressed and it's good to see that you've helped the process on it's way.
That would be me. As an employer I would not want people working for me that believe they can work outside of their contracted agreement legal or otherwise. Make up your mind. Working outside the MOA is unacceptable.
Yes I can actually as I have done it. I remember not blaming other parts of the airline however culpable they may be. I would hope that whatever situation you're dealing with Glamgirl, you would behave in the same professional manner.
Ten West wrote:
That's a well reasoned arguement. Not much different from some of the more militant posts on this thread. By your rationale all managers should be sacked as well, based on several £100 million in fines and the sheer lunacy of illegally getting in to bed with the bearded one.
There is no doubt that there are radical changes coming BA crew's way.
they are long overdue. There have been many attempts at ripping up long standing agreements and starting from scratch and that's exactly what will happen. Anybody thinking otherwise is deluding themselves.
Your absolutely right though, inappropriate behaviour needs to be addressed and it's good to see that you've helped the process on it's way.
To the person who said about making up agreements on the day. I don't believe in making new rules on an hourly basis. I agree with using common sense and discretion (not necessarily as defined in moa).
Can you imagine being the ground staff member who has to tell hundreds of pax "sorry, you can't fly home/to your meeting etc because the crew needs 2 local nights?
Ten West wrote:
Serves them bloody well right if BA sack the lot of them and then invite them to re-apply for their old jobs on new T's & C's, with each application based on past performance and conduct.
There is no doubt that there are radical changes coming BA crew's way.
they are long overdue. There have been many attempts at ripping up long standing agreements and starting from scratch and that's exactly what will happen. Anybody thinking otherwise is deluding themselves.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you understand the difference between what is legally req'd and the industrial agreements between BA and BASSA?
It is not, for example, a legal reqt to have 2 local nights off after a longe range diversion. The law reqs 12 hrs or at least the time of preceding duty.
And why not make alleviations during times of mass disruption?
BA crew work to very outdated and restrictive practices dating from the 70s.
These need to change to allow BA to respond to a crisis more quickly, and to operate more cost-effectively.
It is not, for example, a legal reqt to have 2 local nights off after a longe range diversion. The law reqs 12 hrs or at least the time of preceding duty.
And why not make alleviations during times of mass disruption?
BA crew work to very outdated and restrictive practices dating from the 70s.
These need to change to allow BA to respond to a crisis more quickly, and to operate more cost-effectively.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: job centre
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Blue Riband - Of course I understand the difference. I also recognise that 2 nights appears excessive. What I am arguing is that it is not up to any individual, certainly not an operating crew member, to exercise discretion as they see fit. Project Columbus will see to it that outdated 1970s working agreements are a thing of the past.
A new agreement will replace the old one and both BA and Cabin Crew will be expected to adhere to it.
Alleviations are given during times of mass disruption. They are agreed between the Unions and BA as necessary. They are not given for inept management as has been requested in the past.
A new agreement will replace the old one and both BA and Cabin Crew will be expected to adhere to it.
Alleviations are given during times of mass disruption. They are agreed between the Unions and BA as necessary. They are not given for inept management as has been requested in the past.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: job centre
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Incidentally, I can reveal that BA are 'not expecting crew to be paid the same as VS. We are prepared to pay a little bit more.'
(source: BA Manager Transformational Change In Flight Customer Experience).
Based on the above manager's contribution on a course I recently attended, I imagine the salary will not be a pay scale as such. Too many increments encourage crew to stay on which is not cost efficient. Crew turnover is currently 1% at LHR compared to 9% at LGW.
Burn out is the target here. Work your crew as hard as you can, that would be high productivity, recruit and replace as required.
Incredibly, there are some crew that don't believe any of this will happen.
Get used to it and start thinking ahead. If you cannot deal with a huge reduction in pay and terms and conditions, what are you going to do?
There will be more than tears. BA will not be shedding a single one.
(source: BA Manager Transformational Change In Flight Customer Experience).
Based on the above manager's contribution on a course I recently attended, I imagine the salary will not be a pay scale as such. Too many increments encourage crew to stay on which is not cost efficient. Crew turnover is currently 1% at LHR compared to 9% at LGW.
Burn out is the target here. Work your crew as hard as you can, that would be high productivity, recruit and replace as required.
Incredibly, there are some crew that don't believe any of this will happen.
Get used to it and start thinking ahead. If you cannot deal with a huge reduction in pay and terms and conditions, what are you going to do?
There will be more than tears. BA will not be shedding a single one.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dublin
Posts: 1,806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To those of you not employed as cabin crew for BA and have little if any understanding of T&C's within the company...
Take everything you have read here with a pinch of salt!
I can assure you that those who shout the loudest here on this forum are probably the ones that are afraid to blink wrong!!!!
I can assure you that the vast VAST majority of us (BA cabin crew, BASSA members etc) are actually very easy going and understanding people!
Take everything you have read here with a pinch of salt!
I can assure you that those who shout the loudest here on this forum are probably the ones that are afraid to blink wrong!!!!
I can assure you that the vast VAST majority of us (BA cabin crew, BASSA members etc) are actually very easy going and understanding people!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: north of heathrow
Age: 55
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here Here..!!
We know there are some bad apples amongst us. I've been flying 17 years and I've met a whole spectrum of people.
But like apddyinuk says the vast majority of us are very nice people.
Glamgirl, By discussing what you saw in a bar, (i know how loud and brash crew can be, I've been embarrassed in the past, and I remember apologising to a barmaid in BOS on behalf of a colleague), you're actually helping to generalise us, whether you think you are or not. You may be at LHR one day, does that mean you'll be exactly like them..?? 'Cos I know I'm not.
PS, I hope you were on soft drinks with only the 10.5 hrs rest you had..!!
PPS. my "hear hear" was to paddyinuk....!
We know there are some bad apples amongst us. I've been flying 17 years and I've met a whole spectrum of people.
But like apddyinuk says the vast majority of us are very nice people.
Glamgirl, By discussing what you saw in a bar, (i know how loud and brash crew can be, I've been embarrassed in the past, and I remember apologising to a barmaid in BOS on behalf of a colleague), you're actually helping to generalise us, whether you think you are or not. You may be at LHR one day, does that mean you'll be exactly like them..?? 'Cos I know I'm not.
PS, I hope you were on soft drinks with only the 10.5 hrs rest you had..!!
PPS. my "hear hear" was to paddyinuk....!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Uk
Age: 48
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really do sympathise with you guys in some respects but in others just think you have had it too easy for far too long!!! You are lucky to have a great union but you have to remember that the current times are really hard - and have broken many companies already!!! I'm not saying that BA are going down but they have to protect themselves.
I do not work for BA, I actually work for a charter and have seen so many changes that have had to be made to stay competative within the market. I have many friends flying for BA and have to say you guys have it so easy and really do not stop moaning (ok some of you). I'm sure to the crew that work with you who used to be charter will tell you how hard we actually work. Do you hear us continually complaining??? Look whats going on around you in every industry right now - this should be a wake up call in its self!!! Sorry if this offends - But just have a wee little think!
I do not work for BA, I actually work for a charter and have seen so many changes that have had to be made to stay competative within the market. I have many friends flying for BA and have to say you guys have it so easy and really do not stop moaning (ok some of you). I'm sure to the crew that work with you who used to be charter will tell you how hard we actually work. Do you hear us continually complaining??? Look whats going on around you in every industry right now - this should be a wake up call in its self!!! Sorry if this offends - But just have a wee little think!