BA and Project Columbus

[The Moo]

PC. obviously can't read prop. My figs are net as stated many times. I'm on 13,000

[frontcheck]

Do any crew actually work 37.5 hours a week?
£10356/900 = £11.50 per hr

[Glamgirl]

So if we take £13k as an example.

Take away minimum days off and leave days. Average the rest on a 37.5 hour week, it comes to 1140.75 hours a year, which we can't do due to EU legislation. That leaves 900 hours as per legislation, which then gives you £14.44 per hour (before tax). Yes, I know not all duty hours are flying hours (SEP, ITF, PST etc), so let's say £12/hour. Bear in mind that this is using just the basic salary, and allowances (however much or little) comes on top of that.

Minimum wage is never calculated after tax, always before. So I think you'll find that you're well above minimum wage. Also, keep in mind the tax break we get...

Not critisising your wage, I'm sure you deserve every penny, but please don't say you earn less than minimum wage.

Going sick means statutory sick pay, ie basic salary.

I'd like to see us get paid holidays, but that's still but a dream, unfortunately.

Gg

[Cough]

G/Girl....

The 900 hours are purely flying hours - from leaving the gate until arrival. So take a typical 3 sector day - AMS there and back followed by AGP n/s. You would probably only do 5 hours flying but your duty hours would probably be around 9. We are only allowed to do 900 flying hours per year, but believe it or not, 2000 is the max duty hour restriction.

So when you are doing your hourly rate calculation, bear in mind that its the duty hours that count...

[stormin norman]

Rumour has it some ex Flight engineers are on £80K + allowances working as cabin crew.

[Re-Heat]

PC. obviously can't read prop. My figs are net as stated many times. I'm on 13,000

Hence the confusion. Nobody in their right mind compares salaries on a net basis!

[EYXW]

Nobody earns less than minimum wage at BA - period. To suggest so is quite ridiculous as it would be illegal and they wouldn't get away with it - The current minimum wage is £5.73 an hour BA employ us on the basis of working 1200 hours per year (900 flying hours) legally we could work up to 2000 so worse case scenario 2000 x £5.73 = £11,460 p.a. If you are telling me you earn less than this as CC then may I suggest you are doing your sums wrong!

On the basis they work on 1200 x £5.73 = £6876 - well below even a new joiners base rate - and most new joiners being in EF will struggle to achieve even 1200 hours per year.

All this said - do I want to see CC pay reduced - hell no - it is unreasonable to expect someone who has been employed on the understanding they will receive X amount remuneration to then be told they will now get less. HOWEVER do I think the ancient and restrictive terms and conditions need to be changed to be more productive - certainly - £200 per crew member per sector for a one light payment (WW) is, I am sorry, insane.

Hitting anything less than 900 a year flying time on EF is equally unproductive, as are CAT payments for having a break that means getting back to compass would take to long, these were bizarre before T5 now they are just silly.

Box Payments/Over Time Rates/Destination Payments on WW - er why?

How about if allowances were based on the work you put in and how productive it is. Hourly rate doesn't have to be your enemy - but playing with the suggestion of an hourly rate the same way the American's played with the metric system will leave you behind, whilst everyone else gets involved, adapts, moves forward and has an improved system.

I don't think people should earn less, but working harder has been a long time coming at BA. No it's not a charter airline, but nor can it continue to work to the legacy carrier model.

Blame Loco's, blame the financial climate, blame Willy Walsh - I don't care! but we all have to realise that air transportation has changed (for a long time now) and we need to catch up.

Sorry If I seem blunt, or you disagree, but I find it hard to see anything in the document which isn't routed in fact......

[PC767]

EYXW. The one light payment may seem insane but the point of the payment is not to reward crew, but to ensure correct and agreed crew levels on flights. The problem with BA, as with other large UK companies - so it seems, is that if they can get away with less than agreed they will. Without the payment clause it is not unreasonable to expect BA to start routinely under-rostering flights to save cash. In previous employment it was routine to under-roster flights because the payment/fine to crew was far less than employing another crew member and thus it was cost effect, though not passenger friendly, to do so.

[EYXW]

may I take it then you agree with the rest?

But seriously if flights were intentionally rostered one light - this payment as a stick for BA is fine - but it rarely/never is intentional (the company can't afford for it to be) occasionally it is even another crew members fault, or, an unavoidable operational reason yet with a crew of 15 on a 747 on a simple round trip the extra costs are £6000 - this money doesn't come from nowhere - and that effects our colleagues beyond the CRC.

Careful and effective IR could achieve the same goal as this carte blanche allowance - and then there are diversion payments...... These unusual one offs don't form part of our regular or predicted pay packets so they are non-painful ways the crew community could bargain..

[Human Factor]

Rumour has it some ex Flight engineers are on £80K + allowances working as cabin crew.

Great rumour! Some ex-Flight Engineers remain with BA in several operational roles including as pilots, although not as cabin crew. Their salary was frozen at the point at which their role ended and they have not continued up the incremental FE pay structure. Where they have taken on a position which has a lower pay grade, their final FE basic pay was retained. Clearly no allowances were payable. Where they joined a different scale (such as pilot), their pay was fixed at their final FE grade until the equivalent pilot grade exceeded it.

Obviously there were no directly equivalent positions for them to be moved to (other than pilot, which would require expensive re-training) so I don't consider it unfair that they continue to receive an element of their original package. Not sure any were on £80k + allowances in the first place. Even if there were, they would all have retired long ago.

Not sure how any of the above is related to the Columbus debate though? The cabin crew role is not ending. It's just proposed to alter some terms and conditions.

[yaletown]

Glamgirl, a duty day can be 16 hours, so it would actually break down to less than 11.75. Not to mention, try spending 21 days in LUN as a forgotten crew (back in the 90's) where you just want to kill yourself. Some the trips we did and they still do are so bloody horrid in third world countries where you can barely leave the hotel facility, staying at a hotel, mind you, that is 4 stars in Africa, but like a one star in the UK. In Africa dear, you cannot get shower water in your eyes, have to brush your teeth with bottled water, cannot eat any salad, and avoid vegatables. Try sitting in blighty for half a month only eating beef and potatoes. Most of Africa is not like South Africa. I could go on and on...I used to love how I would always get Delhi bellie each time in India..oh and my fave was when I got Hep A in HRE! Did I mention you live on anti malarial tablets? TRY DOING THIS EVERY MONTH!! There were months where I was home literally 8 days only. The pay should compensate people for being away for so long, not to mention the many many health hazards you get exposed to. In my estimation, cabin crew are not paid enough these days, but our execs bonuses and salaries just keep getting bigger and bigger....

[1000 to go]

Its good to see that the majority here are taking a practical approach to the yet unproposed changes. To the minority, with quotes like 'over my dead body', Im afraid youll have no choice.

No one here wants to lose any money, and I sincerely hope that is not what happens.

Any changes BA wants are to eliminate the box payments, CATS's, destination payments and uneven allowances across similar pay grades. A practical approach to helping ourselves and BA to achieve its goals must be a priority.

This may ultimately be to our advantage. No more worry about not getting SIN,SYD,NRT,HKG,GVA,ZRH to bump up the pay. One pay structure will stop this, decrease sickness levels and stop the unseen rostering to certain peoples advantage.

BASSA have not helped but blurting out 'NO' at every chance over the last 5 yrs. BA want us to be more productive offering them savings, lets get what we can on a realistic basis.

Sitting back and saying 'No' and worrying about Pilots/Willie Walsh and everyone else will achieve precisely zero for our futures.

(or just continue being personal and unrealistic and ultimately lose out more)

[Hotel Mode]

Wow!

Glamgirl, a duty day can be 16 hours, so it would actually break down to less than 11.75. Not to mention,

Only on longhaul (and then rarely) and longhaul crew never do 2000 duty hr years.

staying at a hotel, mind you, that is 4 stars in Africa, but like a one star in the UK.

Having fairly intimate knowledge of many BA african hotels thats simply rubbish.

Did I mention you live on anti malarial tablets?

No you dont, they are only recommended under very specific circumstances and not in any crew hotels we stay at.

There were months where I was home literally 8 days only.

Again, simply not possible on any BA roster. Especially with the 900hr limit.

[Human Factor]

Having spent several years on longhaul as a decidedly junior FO at one stage, I've seen quite a lot of Africa, including the delights of LUN (Lusaka for anyone who doesn't speak IATA). Great place FWIW.

...you cannot get shower water in your eyes...

... is no more of a problem in LUN as it is in LON. Having spent time in LAD (not to be confused with IAD as a few people did ), I can vouch for the fact that it wasn't a problem there either. Granted, I brushed my teeth with bottled water (good advice) but I can still see ok.

As for malaria tablets, you pays your money you takes your choice. Taking them for long-term use (including Malarone) can potentially cause more of a problem than getting malaria (non-BA medical advice).



PS: Never had Delhi belly either but then I never ate in the hotels.

[sevenforeseven]

CARNAGE MATEY, Do you ever work? You seem to spend a lot of time on PPrune. You must have a "good" job.

[Carnage Matey!]

I work plenty. Still on the 900 hour list in my airline. Whats your excuse?

[Maus]

Gosh! I have been away from this site for years, it seems - and now I remember why. Same old 'faces' (hi CarnageMatey!) with clearly nothing better to do than to comment on the t&cs of other departments- to what end, I always wonder? No social life then? Answer: "Oh, I lead a robust and exciting social life". hmmmmmm...
I am LHR WW crew on the new contract. I used to love my job, but sadly, the job has changed so much so I am organising myself to leave. I know I am good at my job, I (almost without exception) love the passengers and I would want to be served by me! (putting trumpet away now) I work a lot on the upper deck and enjoy a good relationship (almost without exception) with the Flight Crew. I try and keep them happy and do whatever I can to help them out. The few times I have been on this site, have made me so mad with the self-righteous posts from Flight Crew, that I have battled to keep muttering the mantra, "It's only a few who are like that..."
I used to work for other big organisations (Marks & Spencer's Head Office amongst others) and have been privy to what is on the chopping block when the chips are down. I am no Communist, but funny how when pay cuts are bandied about, they rarely seem to be across the board. Those at the bottom of the pile that have the most to lose, are targeted first.
I have worked for BA for almost 12 years now, with many upsets along the way, but overall, it has been good. Changes to my T&cs have taught me not to trust the management. They are there to cut costs at any price and then move on. Quite how a customer-service oriented business and shareholders can work together, is beyond me. It seems all very pyramidal to me: cut costs repeatedly to make a profit in order to pay shareholders dividends, until there is no more blood to be wrung from the stone. Then what? I'm guessing sub-contracting to third-world countries? Oooh paranoia. I can't pretend to be an Economics graduate, though, so maybe I'll keep my mouth shut on that...
My (rather long-winded) point (apologies) is that nothing was ever suggested to us by the management to do anything but cut my wages or my t&cs. What fool would believe that although BA needs to cut costs in IFS, we would hardly notice the difference in our pay packet? I am open to discussion and I am realistic. But when I see what cuts management are taking in order that we all shoulder this burden, I might feel even more open to negotiation.
I am off now to pursue MY hectic social life so happy flying one and all! Peace and all that....

[Ten West]

Observation:

Every time I read most any cabin Crew forum thread, it's comprised almost entirely of CC's moaning and whingeing about what a tough life it is, how poorly paid, what martyrs they are, etc. etc.

Quick solution:

Why not go and do something else then?

It's not like it's a vocation, is it? Like being a Nurse or a Missionary. Nobody has an inbuilt desire to make the world a better place for humanity by serving coffee and biscuits. It's a JOB. A way of EARNING A LIVING and doing a bit of travelling for free at the same time.

I had a job I hated. I realised that I was working for w****rs and that nothing would ever change, so...
I kept my mouth shut, saved up some money to live on, left my job, retrained and got the one I wanted.

"If you do what you've always done then you'll get what you've always got".

Standing by for flaming.

[Ten West]

Originally Posted by Darkstar

...The question is how low can BA dare go with their knife to CC's T & C's before people refuse to keep knocking at the CC door.

Plenty low. That's the inescapable truth. Look how many people out there want work.
maybe the T's and C's aren't what they were in the "Good Old Days" but to someone looking to get out of burger-flipping and arguing with Chavs in Maccy D's it'll seem like the promised land.

There will always be someone out there who will be willing to do your job for less money. I think in a case of playing "Chicken" with a major employer from a position of little or no advantage it isn't going to take a genius to work out who's going to blink first.

[Ludo]

So, basically any management who wants to slash my T&C (BA or else, I'm not BA) is entitled to do that, and all I'd have to do is find another job?
Who says that management is right in wanting to slash and I'm wrong wanting to keep my T&C?
Why should I go and they stay? That would be easy, huh?It is obvious that the more we let them get away with slashing anything they want, they'll be back for more next round.
I'll tell you something: I'm staying, I'm talking and discussing about what doesn't seem right, and I'm prepared to take action if necessary. They can always change job if they don't like it that way