Virgin - Crew Discussions II

[sign-it-to-your-room]

I'm with Virgin 89.
The thought of a strike scares me somewhat, but i take comfort in that I dont believe the cfrew will have the balls to do it. Why? Because this is just a big drama to a lot of them, most dont even understand what is going on! I keep hearing the same old story of we want our pay in line with other airlines, but no-one (except scoobs) has actually stipulated what they want. Do they even know what they want? I guess the thought of losing a few days pay will be enough to make most not vote.
As a guideline, here are the salaries (per day) of what crew stand to lose:
JNR £55
SNR £63
CSS £76
FSM £89
Those are just off the top of my head, I do have the actual figures in my house but not about to look at this hour.
Add on top of this trip pay/commission/allowances and there is quite a significant loss.
I've no idea what would happen down route. If I ruled the airline and my crew refused to board a plane I certainly wouldnt pay for accomodation or extra allowances, so not sure what would happen in these circumstances.

I'm all for getting extra pay as a manager, sorting out this crew down situation (which is not down to crew sickness, if that were the case why is it a comparatively new thing?), but not at the expense of a strike and the possibility of job losses.
I dont think it is scare tactics, I think it is called real life; I am not a union member now and apparantly I am the most vulnerable to lose my job because of this!
I do believe that I am underpaid as a Manager and that the 4.8% wont really bring me in line with other Managers (airline or within VAA); however I do believe that this will eventually be addressed, and for what its worth I'm hardly overworked! Okay, I'll probably get lynched for that last comment, but its true. For the hours that I work and the lifestyle that I lead, I think I'm in a win win situation. Of course I get pissed off with the company at times, but like Grease 7 said "I just grit my teeth and get on with it hoping that the weather will be good down-route"!

This whole situation has saddened me. I've swayed to and fro seeing the argument from both sides. Now I just want us to accept thye 4.8% on the table and get back to normality. This is going to sound awful, and i do apologise, but I feel that the airline I work for has been invaded by a group of people who just dont care or listen. I sometimes think "How dare you ask for such an increase after such a short service". I feel that I can ask for an increase as I joined so many years ago and worked my way up, but if you knew that salary in the last couple of years then why the big fuss?

Off to bed now and I await the barrage of abuse I'll recieve for that last comment

[Fournier Boy]

"I would keep your thoughts to yourself . You do yourself & colleagues a disservice by going down the line of "them and us"! BTW I think your assistance is the least you could do for all the breakfasts the crews left you guys!"

As a matter of fact, I think he actually explains the current feeling in the engineering department very well. You've done yourselves no favours.

You, the crew, are the ones you have isolated yourselves from the rest of the company, not Tom/Grease 7/whoever it is.

[Tom Sawyer]

I know I shouldn't reply as I will only get flamed............
However a few pages back somebody asked about input from other departments, not just engineering and obviously this is a hot topic at the momment around the company. I do not want to turn this into an "us and them", I just reported some feelings and instances around the company that I have picked up on. As I said I get on very well with a number of crew and reckon in general you do a great job. As for your levels of pay, as I previously stated in an earlier post, I really don't know what the going rate is around the world. I know I can get more elsewhere, but it isn't always as clear cut as has been pointed out numerous times in this discussion. I'm sure that is the same for all of us.
To answer a few of Raffles' points.
1. I can't help the fact that payrises are % based. Yes I may get paid more but my training and such like puts me and others such as pilots, accounts etc in that position. An old can of worms that has been discussed many a time. Maybe if they company offered everyone a £500 a year payrise instead it would appear fairer, but can't see it coming about.
2. Allowances. I wasn't complaining. I think what I get per night is more than adequate. So how come crew find their higher allowances inadequate? Hence the story about the crew drinks. Of course I don't begrudge anyone having a few on their allowances. However it is pretty contradictory to read one thing and hear another in the current climate.
3. Spice Girls etc. It is called free advertising and publicity. Yes it may cost the comapny a bit to transport them and their crew around the world, but I'm sure it is more than offset by the product exposure and brand awareness.
4. Lack of service if I'm in J on staff travel. A great example of how this whole affair could go on an us & them basis. Nobody wants it, so why provoke it with an unwanted strike?
5. A346 engineering "dispute". (Convienently) I can't remember the full details, but pretty sure it wasn't pay related as the eng Tier System was being implemented around that time. More to do with lack of training / exposure to the type. There was a lot of politics and lies going on as well that muddied the water. Certainly would not have led to industrial action as we are non-unionised, and under the conditions of engineers licenses we should not sign out an aircraft under such circumstances. But overall I guess you may have a valid point.

No matter what I guess this will easily turn into an slanging match between CC and any other departments. My main aim was to report what is / could happen if things do descend any further, and back it up with examples. However for one of mine there is always one of yours and our individual entrenchments will never meet.
As I said; Think long. Think hard............and thanks for the breakfasts

[scoobydooo]

After a cracking night out I have come in only to be saddened by the them us posts that are ongoing. Unfortunately this is a bi-product of any strike scenario regardless of the company/industry especially when there are other departments who do not have adequate representation to ensure they get what they deserve.

A lot has been said regarding us poo-poo'ing a deal 2-2.5x more than other departments have received. You must remember though that the cabin crew are attempting to bring themselves in line with counterparts in other airlines. This will seem like a large % initially, once this initial correction has been made I would imagine many crew would be happy with raises in line with RPI. (look back to the initial % increase the pilots received - it was modest to say the least, but now any changes are relatively minor)

I am saddened it has come to this, I can honestly say though hand on heart that if engineering or checking or base admin and their unions (if they were adequately represented) felt that the only way left to pursue a fair deal in their respective departments was by striking then I would fully support you. I might not be able to join in, secondary action being illegal etc but if I was on a day off I would certainly bring bacon rolls and tea & coffee to your line, but that's just me, the way I am, I dont believe anyone should be getting "shafted". When I read all the information relating to how virgin is doing financially, sales revenue, turnover, everything is on the up yet other departments were offered a poor 2% that sucks - as said before, the two departments that are heavily represented by unions do not stand for this, please please please get yourselves represented - it is your right and will benefit you in the long run

I agree with the comments regarding sickness, there are some who make it worse for others, I have been sick 3 days in the last year due to blocked ears and there are many who are also proud to have low sickness.

Regarding the comment I've no idea what would happen down route. If I ruled the airline and my crew refused to board a plane I certainly wouldn't pay for accommodation or extra allowances, so not sure what would happen in these circumstances.

I believe when this can potentially happen the outbound is basically not operated, if it was there would be a fuss regarding an employees duty of care for the crew and not allowing the crew to carry out their legal right to strike on an organised strike day - I think that's why the airlines try to avoid this scenario (please note this paragraph is all think - I do not know 100% for sure) but I would expect the union to provide answers to such questions with an accompanying leaflet with the strike ballot.

11% more votes is all that is required, I strongly urge the company to hold immediate talks with the union, change something that you think will cater for 11% of those votes and offer a new deal which can be sent out with the strike ballots.

I cant think of one crew member I know who wants to strike, we would rather this was resolved amicably however my hand (I say "I" as I cant speak for others but I think it's a "we") is being forced into this situation.

When other departments have been forced to use the threat of strike and to strike as a last resort they have been supported by other departments - why are we different ?

[Right Way Up]

VS_LHR,
Apologies. What I meant to say is that VS can afford an increase in crew wages. Funny how comms are not so good after going down the pub.
Fournier Boy

As a matter of fact, I think he actually explains the current feeling in the engineering department very well. You've done yourselves no favours

FB. My issue is not the fact that other departments are against the crew striking. I would feel the same, but it is the little comments against the crew e.g. the cocktails, withdrawing all "your" help that to be frank is ridiculous and puts your department in a bad light. Sure state your objection & reasons to the crews actions but leave it at that!
I also reiterate I am not cabin crew. I was with with VS for 10 years. I am now at a company that pays the industry rate for my profession and am about to receive shares equivalent to 1/3 of my wage. VS have always pleaded poverty during wage negotiations, and historically apart from one years pilot negotiations the workforce have bent over! These paytalks are not about rpi + x %, they are about redressing the balance as VS are paying the lowest rates in the industry.
Overall this will be a scary time for all at VS and I would agree with VS_LHR that VS cannot afford a strike. I would suggest that the crew will very soon receive a new deal which will allow both sides to withdraw with everything intact. The fact is that VS "mismanagement" have allowed this situation to escalate when it shouldn't have.
BTW out of interest would you guys in ENG consider yourselves paid the industry rate?

[Grease 7]

BTW out of interest would you guys in ENG consider yourselves paid the industry rate?

Honestly - No. BUT - most of us have moved around a bit, mostly due to redundancy, and when you have worked elsewhere you realise that pay is not everything. In general Virgin is a much better place to work than pretty much all the places I have worked. There is nowhere near as much whinging etc as you get elsewhere, we actually have decent equipment etc to work with and the management are, in general, much more sensible than a lot of other places. So as I said, pay isn't always everything.

As they can afford to pay the groundstaff a decent wage

How many time do I have to say this? The hourly rates for CC are not that different to Technicians. And Technicians are pretty well paid compared to other ground staff. That means that your rates are well up there and certainly above a lot of ground and office staff.

[warkman]

So,
to get this in perspective of the 4.8% deal on the table, a crew member earning £55 a day, on strike for two weeks, negates the increase for the whole year.
Those advocating strike action must have either
a) someone else paying the bills
b) savings they can pizz away
c) not thought out how they are going to pay the bills or don't care they are going to be worse off in the long run.
Madness.

Strikertworedshoes,
You haven't got the backing for a strike.
Only 41% of the union crew voted no, then rest, some 59% either voted yes, or did not return their ballot papers. none of them will vote for a strike. as a group, some of the 41% won't want to take it the next level, they have bills to pay regardless.

You are only 30% of the total crew who voted no, some 1,000 odd only, if you go on strike with such a small portion of the crew, you aint gonna win.
Just remember that when redundancies do come they have 1,000 odd to choose first.

Forget union solidaritry, when you have a mortgage payment, that goes out the window. I expect the people who did not send back their ballot papers to vote no to a strike, why should they vote for a strike when they have showed they don't really care about the dispute one way or another?

[vs_lhr]

Overall this will be a scary time for all at VS and I would agree with VS_LHR that VS cannot afford a strike. I would suggest that the crew will very soon receive a new deal which will allow both sides to withdraw with everything intact. The fact is that VS "mismanagement" have allowed this situation to escalate when it shouldn't have.

I'm afraid I disagree; firstly with your putting the blame at the feet of management (because they were negotiating with a union who didn't actually know what cc wanted, so where probably told that 4.8% was the payrise the crew were fighting for), and secondly I don't think there is going to be any further offers. Both crew and management are painted into a corner. If management crack, they will be screwed for future pay negotiations.
If it comes to a strike, and assuming it's only about 30% of the crew that cause it (because of the percentage of the crew that are in the union, and then the percentage of them that actually vote), that would seriously effect flights - but it wouldn't ground them all. The company would certainly have better resources to battle through than a JNR losing £55 a day, or an FSM at £89. Are you really prepared for a fight? It will be a bloody battle if you really want to go through with it, and it'll only cause more polarisation between staff than a few comments on internet forums. You think, after the strike is over, you'll be able to flounce into the airport with a smile (assuming you've kept your head above water after all that time without pay), and the colleagues you'd been calling scabs will welcome you back with open arms? Get real. No-one is going to win in the event of a strike.

[scoobydooo]

Those advocating strike action must have either
a) someone else paying the bills
b) savings they can pizz away
c) not thought out how

Or be looking for a fair deal ! When you buy a lottery ticket are you down with misery because you have lost £1 or are you focused on the end result ?

Walkman - you keep going on about the % of the crew and the non votes. It really doesn't matter if in the next round 50% of people dont return the votes and of the remaining 50% 30% votes Yes and the remainder vote no that 30% of the 3200 is enough to carry a 60-40% in favour of action. So... clearly 30% is strong enough. The numbers do not mater - it is a "snapshot" of the crew. You can argue till you are blue in the face about the actual number of votes but it makes no difference.

Just remember that when redundancies do come they have 1,000 odd to choose first.

Not that I think it;s relevant but you will find there are strict criteria as to who goes first, not selective criteria - that's illegal.

I expect the people who did not send back their ballot papers to vote no to a strike

And others I have spoken to who did vote yes now believe they have to unite with the striking crew. example - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=357

We shall just have to wait and see.

Edited to add - Walkman do you actually work for Virgin ? Just wondered as it would appear from searching all of your posting you spend a lot of time on PPRuNe having lots to say about lots of discussions ? I did chuckle at this quote of yours

Let's not forget Virgin Atlantic's role in this rip off of their passengers, especially as they have tried to sell themselves as ethically superior to BA when all along they are no different.

[Right Way Up]

VS_LHR don't be afraid its only your point of view!
The management cock-up imho is not from this pay talk, it is the years of not redressing the balance of wages. They are now reaping what they have sown. Historically VS has been financially raped by the hierachy. How else do you explain the ridiculous lease costs of the Alitalia -400s which were bought, then sold to a third party then leased back at high profit to individuals without much idea where they were going to fly them. The powerpoint presentation made up by the pilot council a few years back was very enlightening to where all the cash was going!

[vs_lhr]

The management cock-up imho is not from this pay talk, it is the years of not redressing the balance of wages. They are now reaping what they have sown. Historically VS has been financially raped by the hierachy.

I can't disagree with that

But the union has been less than hopeless during this dispute in letting it get this far because they didn't know what they were asking for, and recommending offers without realising the temperature of the people the supposedly represent.

[Right Way Up]

But the union has been less than hopeless during this dispute in letting it get this far because they didn't know what they were asking for, and recommending offers without realising the temperature of the people the supposedly represent.

I do not know the ins & outs of the union participation but I agree that is the impression being given.

I am going to bow out now as its not my fight. I would like to wish all the great guys & gals in all departments at Virgin good luck. IMO the people are the strength of the company. I hope that VS can get back to where it should be, although I fear it won't be with the present board!

[scoobydooo]

vs lhr whole heartedly agree with your post above, a new leader needed to be put in charge of the cc talks and one with a finger on the pulse (where do I sign) - do you think the other side of the table requires a change too ?

p.s. even though I agree with you I am still dubious of your new arrival here

[vs_lhr]

p.s. even though I agree with you I am still dubious of your new arrival here

Perfectly ok to be suspicious. It's only recently that I felt I had something to say - normally I'm more of a passive participant.

[Grease 7]

Also, for instance a crew member who communtes and has been rostered a JFK 3 on the proposed strike day will probably be better of financially aupporting the strike than .... paying for a commuter ticket, overnight accomodation for perhaps 2 nights and only recieving $144 in allowances plus a days money!!!!

This is what I don't understand. I hear these complaints time and time again. I have worked at various airports all over the world and I have always lived near the airports. Even if that has meant renting out my property while I was away. This is simply because I could never afford to pay for an air/rail/bus ticket to work each day or pay for accommodation locally on top of living expenses elsewhere. The cost of getting to work is a personal cost that has to be met by everyone who works, where you live and the level of those costs is down to personal choice it is not something that can be introduced into a disagreement about terms and conditions. If it costs you more to get to work than you get paid that is not the employers problem.

[scoobydooo]

If it costs you more to get to work than you get paid that is not the employers problem.

If employer offered London weighting then the commute to work would not be as expensive, so london weighting could be an argument of T&C e.g. crew who are Manchester based should they be on same Basic as crew who are London Based ? It's just another for the melting pot.

Not a pop at Manchester crew just an alternate view point for Grease 7

[warkman]

warkman - the strike will be for 3 days not 2 weeks.

Where has the 3 days come from? Iv'e not heard that timescale before?

[warkman]

Edited to add - Walkman do you actually work for Virgin ? Just wondered as it would appear from searching all of your posting you spend a lot of time on PPRuNe having lots to say about lots of discussions ? I did chuckle at this quote of yours

No, ex RAF, fly a hell of a lot for my job (SLF) and have a Gold Card with VSFC along with other FF cards.

[warkman]

Or be looking for a fair deal ! When you buy a lottery ticket are you down with misery because you have lost £1 or are you focused on the end result ?

Walkman - you keep going on about the % of the crew and the non votes. It really doesn't matter if in the next round 50% of people dont return the votes and of the remaining 50% 30% votes Yes and the remainder vote no that 30% of the 3200 is enough to carry a 60-40% in favour of action. So... clearly 30% is strong enough. The numbers do not mater - it is a "snapshot" of the crew. You can argue till you are blue in the face about the actual number of votes but it makes no difference.

You are missing the pojnt regarding the people who did not post back the ballots, they did not care about the pay deal but will care about a strike costing them money.

Its the pro strikers who have banged on about 60% voting no, its not 60% of the union, but 41% of the Union, that is a big difference.
Its not a snapshot as the anti pay deal pro strike came out and voted wheras the rest did not. that won't happen in a strike vote. If you think you can carry a strike vote, I have a bridge to sell you.

As for the lottery analagy, they will be focused when they cannot pay their bills due to strike action.

Not that I think it;s relevant but you will find there are strict criteria as to who goes first, not selective criteria - that's illegal.

Actuallky due to the latest anti age discrimination law, the criteria has changed from "last in first out" to a criteria based upon the persons abilities. Going out on strike is not a positive ability.

[scoobydooo]

Walkman,

we haven't banged on about any 60% - I have just shown you the maths the contradict your statement that 30% of crew prepared to strike could not call a strike - lets leave it at that and see what happens.

As for Last in First out/Date of Joining (LIFO/DOJ) being illegal due to age discrimination. This is not the case in the airline sector (may be elsewhere) several airlines of late, MY Travel, Thomas Cook, Thomsonfly, First Choice have all taken legal advise with their recent mergers and been advised by legal council that LIFO is fully legal within the airline community and the least likely of all the other options to fail a successful legal challenge with regards to redundancies. (This I know because I have friends who work in all those airlines)

Its not a snapshot as the anti pay deal pro strike came out and voted whereas the rest did not

Do you really think that those that wanted a Yes just didn't vote then ? Are you serious ? It is a clear snapshot of the crew. but its pointless arguing lets agree to disagree on this one and see what the ballot comes back as.

Thanks for answering with regards to your links to virgin, I did interpret your posts as those of a passenger who will be upset if your schedule is disrupted by industrial action - I respect that but please let the crew get on with our negotiations for our pay to pay our mortgages. As you say the ability not to pay mortgages and bills does focus the crew - that's why many have voted no so far... because they are in that situation already.

Eeit to add - The reason we are in the situation already is because the cost of living has been rapidly rising and salaries have not in line with that, thus hopefully preventing the argument of ..you knew what you would earn when you joined 10 years ago ! Not everyone has a good man/woman/mum/dad to support their income.