Virgin - Crew Discussions II
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I agree with 90% of your points, and from previous posts some will know that I too will be voting yes. The only point I sniggered on was when you said "they want to pay us more".
I dont think you'll ever make me believe that! If this was the case then our pay package would have been sorted years ago. Pay has always been a bone of contention at VS, which is why posters such as Scooby are so passionate about ending this now and ensuring we enter a new and better era.
Most crew are quite confident that we wont go to strike. They believe that money can and will be found (even if it means VAA pulling funds from the Virgin Group for once - so maybe we should be following the Business Pages!)
I'm actually at a loss as to what it is crew that want. I know Scooby wants crew down addressed and loyalty to be recognised in other ranks, but Scooby is just one person. What do the others want? Cant just be the higher rate of pay for FSMs and CSSs as many crew feel this is unfair.
I would be happy with the current pay deal, especially now I have recieved a letter from LM saying that they will look at FSM pay in the next deal (sorry guys, charity begins at home
)
Just changing the subject slightly though, what did LM mean when she mentioned performance related pay for FSMs? On initial reading it didnt sound fair and I had visions of arse-licking, corruption and ruthlessness, but I wont go jumping the gun!
I dont think you'll ever make me believe that! If this was the case then our pay package would have been sorted years ago. Pay has always been a bone of contention at VS, which is why posters such as Scooby are so passionate about ending this now and ensuring we enter a new and better era.
Most crew are quite confident that we wont go to strike. They believe that money can and will be found (even if it means VAA pulling funds from the Virgin Group for once - so maybe we should be following the Business Pages!)
I'm actually at a loss as to what it is crew that want. I know Scooby wants crew down addressed and loyalty to be recognised in other ranks, but Scooby is just one person. What do the others want? Cant just be the higher rate of pay for FSMs and CSSs as many crew feel this is unfair.
I would be happy with the current pay deal, especially now I have recieved a letter from LM saying that they will look at FSM pay in the next deal (sorry guys, charity begins at home
)Just changing the subject slightly though, what did LM mean when she mentioned performance related pay for FSMs? On initial reading it didnt sound fair and I had visions of arse-licking, corruption and ruthlessness, but I wont go jumping the gun!
Virgin CSS and Sign-it... At last a breath of fresh air! Having followed this thread since all the pay dispute its nice to see that some the people who have a fair degree of influence over some of the more 'malleable' members of the workforce have a level head on them and are being realistic, did anyone who is a member of facebook see the (now strangely absent) 'Bring on the strike' group,very worrying really,seemed to reek of 'give me more money and to hell with the consequences'.
I know there are more than two of you out there with a level sensible head who realise the consequences of a strike, for example you wont get paid for the time you arent in,and wont get paid at all if the company gets into the position of having to make redundancies should the worst happen which seemed to come as a shock to some of the less experienced types....At the risk of stating the obvious find me a job role / workforce where people DONT think they are worth more, over in engineering people get knocked back for tier rises (job role stays largely the same but you get more money) even though they may be more than deserving of the extra cash but there is no union,not much in the way of an appeal process,just have to get on with it,and yes the 2% offer was a little hard to swallow!Good luck guys, enjoy the pay rise.....
I know there are more than two of you out there with a level sensible head who realise the consequences of a strike, for example you wont get paid for the time you arent in,and wont get paid at all if the company gets into the position of having to make redundancies should the worst happen which seemed to come as a shock to some of the less experienced types....At the risk of stating the obvious find me a job role / workforce where people DONT think they are worth more, over in engineering people get knocked back for tier rises (job role stays largely the same but you get more money) even though they may be more than deserving of the extra cash but there is no union,not much in the way of an appeal process,just have to get on with it,and yes the 2% offer was a little hard to swallow!Good luck guys, enjoy the pay rise.....
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0.02p Profit ?
hello people
just done some quick maths
say an average of 28 flight per day
average 300pax per flight = 8400 pax per day
profit per day 168 pounds @0.02 profit per pax
so 168 by 365 = 61,320 profit per year ??????????
i dont think i they tell the truth.(the company that is)
if im wrong then il eat my words and stand corrected
i think there is more in the pot and we are in the best positon we have ever been to get it.
i would like to buy a house one day
sorry for moan and i do love my job but !!!!!!!!
just done some quick maths
say an average of 28 flight per day
average 300pax per flight = 8400 pax per day
profit per day 168 pounds @0.02 profit per pax
so 168 by 365 = 61,320 profit per year ??????????
i dont think i they tell the truth.(the company that is)
if im wrong then il eat my words and stand corrected
i think there is more in the pot and we are in the best positon we have ever been to get it.
i would like to buy a house one day
sorry for moan and i do love my job but !!!!!!!!
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Virgin CSS
Just read your post, lots of stuff in there, some of it I agree with and other bits I do not (but you wouldn't expect me to agree with it all - right)
I would just like to add that the recent meetings and the information you have relayed seems nothing more than a "sales" exercise by the company to the senior roles in a hope to change the message that was coming from the senior ranks - however as mentioned I am just one person and that was my personal take on it.
In response to a couple of your points;
You listed several reason below this statement, I agree with them all, I dont however think the fact that BA used to be a state airline has any bearing. They are suffering in some areas and there will come a point when they need to start drawing in strings - they tried earlier this year and this nearly led to strike because the crew/unions have a large membership.
At present I believe we have circa 60-70% membership, it's not bad but more would be better but this is certainly enough to make an impact.
My argument to this statement, "we cant compare ourselves with BA" would be - "why did the pilots union use this argument successfully that their counterparts who had served in BA after X years were earning considerably more than the Virgin equivalent". That would imply double standards - the company conceded to their requests/demands based on this amongst other arguments hence the argument stands for cabin crew also.
- Agreed that is why it is imperative that both parties sit around the table and hammer out a better deal - we have something to lose - however so does everyone else- the company losing e.g. £15M p.a. increasing our packages is cheaper than the company going under.
VK will have been more than likely expected to lose money, especially in it's first 2 years of trading, I very much expect this was budgeted for, to what extent though I am not sure, though given the increasing revenue and pax figures I would not be surprised to see those loses reduce or turn to profit within the next 2 years.
Ahem - Trying to curb my tongue here, sounds very much like B*&$ox - of course there is revenue available to commit to ensuring a smooth outcome of these negotiations - I'm sure there is a pot set aside for the flight crew negotiations true which are pending too albeit a different budget. The same was said that after the 1st and 2nd offer too - so tell me why you have any belief that the company is telling the truth and not just spinning another sob story here - heck if it's prepared write off £20M on VK last year - yet not on it's loyal crew.
This has not been communicated by the union, so where on earth this has come from or even soundly be believed to be the outcome of a no vote is just not comprehendible - at minimum it would reqire another vote and I wonder what the result of that would be !!
I'm sure I'm not the only one that would see this would lead to mayhem if the company even tried it, so lets see hypothetically the current vote is rejected, the vote to strike is NO because people would like the 2 parties to negotiate further rather than an aggressive strike - defies all logic other than to scare the crew into voting yes. Statements like this from the company push me more towards ticking the YES box on strike if the ballot is sent - not something I would do likely but because it's the kind of underhand statements like this that boils my blood and demonstrates the company has learnt nothing from its' crew and union dealings on these negotiations !!
Because people believe in little back books - ah yes Mr/Mrs Manager I will be voting against the pay deal - name noted glass ceiling etc etc no one, or very few are going to tell a manager the truth... or believe for that matter that feedback via Ifly after logging in is anonymous !! Ties into V69's post about facebook, the group mentioned - I heard on the underground that the managers duly noted the names of each and every member of that group - so why would they do that if there is no little black book !
They know they have spent money on the base and the clubhouse and A/C but we all know that we need to spend to keep up with the the rest out there.
The rest also recognise that their crew are an important area to spend on without them having to fight tooth and nail to get an inflationary rise at the cost of more standby !
Openskies - yep going to affect everyone - then again everyone will have to deal with higher wages - so it's not just a battle virgin has every carrier will be subject to this threat.
Finally
My counter to that would be, look how far we have come from the companies initial offers, does the current offer fulfil the aspirations you had when this started ? We, The union members have achieved so much in this offer only to throw it away now would be foolhardy.
I;ve hear this before somewhere - ah yes I remember a Travel editor did an article in the summer about how pilots have an easy life and only work 900 hours a year, I think it was the telegraph. Well if you think this then either you are wired to the moon (I'm sorry I know it's personal but that argument is off this planet !!) the backlash the editor received was intense - Probably on prune too - you need to add duty, fatigue, time away from home, jet lag - you cant be serious about that argument can you ??
But just to entertain it - yep other crews have this as you say "only working 900 hours a year" - yet for the same position they are better rewarded.
We work a hell of a lot more than 900 hours a year (that's about as you need to add duty time -pre flight, post flight time away from home, when you do the maths and consider time you are human, not Jet lagged it isn't far off 8 days off a month - same as a regular jo bloggs has 4 weekends a month
This old chestnut.... It's a historical argument but no one person should be forced out of a job by diminishing terms and conditions - it is what unions were designed to protect - and that's what we are trying to do - protect ourselves.
If the company believes it will have a much better offer next time round put it in writing to us with a new offer...if it isn't prepared to do that then it's flannel in my opinion.
Well The defence rest your honour - no offence intended but it just feels like the "sales team" is still in Play. I know I sound like a Die Hard I just strongly (really really really strongly) believe we are worth more and any promises and words from the company are empty at this point.
Just read your post, lots of stuff in there, some of it I agree with and other bits I do not (but you wouldn't expect me to agree with it all - right
)I would just like to add that the recent meetings and the information you have relayed seems nothing more than a "sales" exercise by the company to the senior roles in a hope to change the message that was coming from the senior ranks - however as mentioned I am just one person and that was my personal take on it.
In response to a couple of your points;
We can't compare ourselves to BA we are VS not BA. Lets look at the facts.
At present I believe we have circa 60-70% membership, it's not bad but more would be better but this is certainly enough to make an impact.
My argument to this statement, "we cant compare ourselves with BA" would be - "why did the pilots union use this argument successfully that their counterparts who had served in BA after X years were earning considerably more than the Virgin equivalent". That would imply double standards - the company conceded to their requests/demands based on this amongst other arguments hence the argument stands for cabin crew also.
If we strike VS will not survive if the strike goes on for more than 7 days. We will run out of cash. In other words we all loose our jobs.
VK will have been more than likely expected to lose money, especially in it's first 2 years of trading, I very much expect this was budgeted for, to what extent though I am not sure, though given the increasing revenue and pax figures I would not be surprised to see those loses reduce or turn to profit within the next 2 years.
If we vote no to this offer they can't offer anything else there is nothing else to offer.
If we then vote no to the strike VS can and will then come back to us with the 2% that the rest of the company was given.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that would see this would lead to mayhem if the company even tried it, so lets see hypothetically the current vote is rejected, the vote to strike is NO because people would like the 2 parties to negotiate further rather than an aggressive strike - defies all logic other than to scare the crew into voting yes. Statements like this from the company push me more towards ticking the YES box on strike if the ballot is sent - not something I would do likely but because it's the kind of underhand statements like this that boils my blood and demonstrates the company has learnt nothing from its' crew and union dealings on these negotiations !!
What they don't understand is that recently they went and spoke to crew and what we the crew were saying we wanted they have given us now and were still not happy.
They know they have spent money on the base and the clubhouse and A/C but we all know that we need to spend to keep up with the the rest out there.
Openskies - yep going to affect everyone - then again everyone will have to deal with higher wages - so it's not just a battle virgin has every carrier will be subject to this threat.
Finally
Grab what we can now and then we can all get on with the jobs we love and look forward to the many years of enjoyment of working at VS.
We work 900 hours a year. How many hours does your average person work a year. A lot more than 900
But just to entertain it - yep other crews have this as you say "only working 900 hours a year" - yet for the same position they are better rewarded.
We work a hell of a lot more than 900 hours a year (that's about as you need to add duty time -pre flight, post flight time away from home, when you do the maths and consider time you are human, not Jet lagged it isn't far off 8 days off a month - same as a regular jo bloggs has 4 weekends a month
If you don't like that idea then maybe you need to look at other airlines/jobs.
If the company believes it will have a much better offer next time round put it in writing to us with a new offer...if it isn't prepared to do that then it's flannel in my opinion.
Well The defence rest your honour - no offence intended but it just feels like the "sales team" is still in Play. I know I sound like a Die Hard I just strongly (really really really strongly) believe we are worth more and any promises and words from the company are empty at this point.
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No your not an FSM and by voting no you may never be.
You have voted no without reading a letter from LM that has some info in there you may need to know.
Well that says a lot about your attitude towards Virgin and your job.
I am so fed up of going to work and working with crew that have been in the company for less that 5 mins and they are demanding a massive pay rise.
There are FSMs and CSSs out there who have been here for years and years and they know that this is the most realistic offer we can get without the airline folding.
Maybe its time that Virgin started employing people that can see a big picture and not just a little one.
Vote yes or no its your choice but know all the facts unlike some crew who are just going to have voted no without knowing everything.
Believe me if a no vote comes through and then we vote no on strike which may happen then all we will get is 2% and the union cant do a thing about it.
Believe me times will be tough if we vote no.
Virgin know we are a big enough group to stand our ground which we have done. VS are very worried about the airline if we vote no and then yes to strike. You should be too. This is the best offer accept it.
Listen to YOUR union. You pay them to do a job and they have now done it. Accept it or it will be a tough time ahead wheather it be at VS or looking for another job.
Most of the things I worte in my other post came from a Union reps mouth. In regard to us getting 2% if we voted no to strike that will be comminucated soon.
VK is costing more than they thought that is why they are thinking about ending it.
What I heard was not a sales pitch it was facts that affect us.
You have voted no without reading a letter from LM that has some info in there you may need to know.
Well that says a lot about your attitude towards Virgin and your job.
I am so fed up of going to work and working with crew that have been in the company for less that 5 mins and they are demanding a massive pay rise.
There are FSMs and CSSs out there who have been here for years and years and they know that this is the most realistic offer we can get without the airline folding.
Maybe its time that Virgin started employing people that can see a big picture and not just a little one.
Vote yes or no its your choice but know all the facts unlike some crew who are just going to have voted no without knowing everything.
Believe me if a no vote comes through and then we vote no on strike which may happen then all we will get is 2% and the union cant do a thing about it.
Believe me times will be tough if we vote no.
Virgin know we are a big enough group to stand our ground which we have done. VS are very worried about the airline if we vote no and then yes to strike. You should be too. This is the best offer accept it.
Listen to YOUR union. You pay them to do a job and they have now done it. Accept it or it will be a tough time ahead wheather it be at VS or looking for another job.
Most of the things I worte in my other post came from a Union reps mouth. In regard to us getting 2% if we voted no to strike that will be comminucated soon.
VK is costing more than they thought that is why they are thinking about ending it.
What I heard was not a sales pitch it was facts that affect us.
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The letter from LM was due to get to us before the ballot paper.
It should have been included yes but it was not. Read it before you make your choice.
Most FSMs and CSSs I have know have spoken to are going to vote yes.
Please do the same. Lets see how the next 2 years treat Virgin then we can fight for more.
The Virgin Group won't bail us out. They will just cut their losses like they have done with many other companies.
I was voting NO until I got the facts and done some homework. I want what we all do, but I also want to keep flying for Virgin Atlantic not some other airline.
It should have been included yes but it was not. Read it before you make your choice.
Most FSMs and CSSs I have know have spoken to are going to vote yes.
Please do the same. Lets see how the next 2 years treat Virgin then we can fight for more.
The Virgin Group won't bail us out. They will just cut their losses like they have done with many other companies.
I was voting NO until I got the facts and done some homework. I want what we all do, but I also want to keep flying for Virgin Atlantic not some other airline.
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What I mean V CSS is this letter from LM (not seen it) it should of been part of the offer, contractual. not some letter that makes some promise. If it is not contractual it isnt worth the paper it's written on. Oh we respect you, we love you, we promise will do better next time - is it along those lines !! I expect so...
If they try to 2% there is lots that can be done - I promise you and it would be far far uglier than the company negotiating further from this point.
We are both passionate from different sides, there are lots of FSM's and CSS's that will be voting No too (oh and juniors and seniors who seem to have been left out in this bias deal), so Lets see what the vote outcome is.
Passion is good, lets agree to disagree.
If they try to 2% there is lots that can be done - I promise you and it would be far far uglier than the company negotiating further from this point.
We are both passionate from different sides, there are lots of FSM's and CSS's that will be voting No too (oh and juniors and seniors who seem to have been left out in this bias deal), so Lets see what the vote outcome is.
Passion is good, lets agree to disagree.
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Get advise on the 2% thing. Ask the union, Ask the CAB.
I forgot to ask you, you mentioned,
Before anyone says it. I am NOT someone from the office. I am a CSS and want a decent pay rise but we have to be realistic.. VS have now met us and we need to VOTE YES or this time next year you may not be working for VS as we won't be around. For your own sake and everyone else that works at VS VOTE YES.
Listen to YOUR union. You pay them to do a job and they have now done it. Accept it or it will be a tough time ahead wheather it be at VS or looking for another job.
Listen to OUR union. WE pay them to do a job and they have now done it. Accept it or it will be a tough time ahead wheather it be at VS or looking for another job.
are you really a CSS, seems like you are talking about the crew as if they are the 3rd party ? - no offence just the way your english is worded in that post.
Also your post to striker
No your not an FSM and by voting no you may never be.
You have voted no without reading a letter from LM that has some info in there you may need to know.
Well that says a lot about your attitude towards Virgin and your job.
You have voted no without reading a letter from LM that has some info in there you may need to know.
Well that says a lot about your attitude towards Virgin and your job.
, why should striker have waited for a letter that he/she had no idea was coming - actually I dont know anyone else who has received it yet either (how did you know it was coming ?) , I mean I know selection is tough but reading the future.... the latest in Virgin flare !? 
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Yes I am a CSS. Your reading into my post too much.
I would post my name if I knew I would not get grief and rubbish thrown at me at work.
I know one thing though if I was on the management team I would not have let it get this far.
I pay the union out of my cash therefore its my union. You pay for the union out of your cash therefore its your union. Can you now see what I mean?
Maybe I should be management but I wont be I enjoy being crew.
I knew the letter was coming because as I stated I went to an OBM and also read a post on here saying someone had got it.
Can I ask how long you have been at VS and what rank you are?
Not for any reason just curious thats all. Saved you the question later.
I would post my name if I knew I would not get grief and rubbish thrown at me at work.
I know one thing though if I was on the management team I would not have let it get this far.
I pay the union out of my cash therefore its my union. You pay for the union out of your cash therefore its your union. Can you now see what I mean?
Maybe I should be management but I wont be I enjoy being crew.
I knew the letter was coming because as I stated I went to an OBM and also read a post on here saying someone had got it.
Can I ask how long you have been at VS and what rank you are?
Not for any reason just curious thats all. Saved you the question later.
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Dear all,
To all of you that have posted of late I feel that it's wonderful that we as crew can express our opinions as individuals.
The management are using scare tactics and there will be no redundancies. Virgin is expanding come open skies so Virgin will be flying business class flight out of Paris, Milan, Frankfurt etc, etc they will need everybody they can put there hands on in two and a half years time.
With the growth of Virgin Blue, Virgin Red and VA there is no chance of a fold up....!Just growth.
Now that recruitment has stopped we will soon be running crew down and variable manning will be with us for a long time. Don't forget about crew with buns in the oven like me, long time sickness and reduced rosters and crew leaving which is a lot. Can I say that the 900 hours is all that the CAA say we can work.....over that then we are being over worked. This was a massive blow the the company and why you see crew having one flight in a month because they are on high hours this is not fair. How long have the company been getting away with this.....years..Thank you CAA.
Virgin Nigeria...No company makes a profit for the first few years.....Sales are up though.... so think of the future and where do you think the money came from for the start up..... Virgin Group (the Cake)
We virgin are a slice of a cake in the virgin group like v cargo and V holidays. I have been told we don't get any money from v cargo or v holidays as they are separate companies. It's all about profits and moving cash around from company to company so there is money out there.
Ok if the management get a yes vote...fantastic they get their bonus for xmas. Crew get their money for xmas minus tax and that put most FSM's over a tax bracket so they will see far less.
Do you really think Virgin will let us strike.....? NO
Will RB let VA strike thats also the question...? NO
What will the public think of him if we do...?
Brand, Brand, Brand..
We are entering a time of unknown...I'm scared and who wouldn't be.
We will lose CM14 in the near future, we will be crew down and variable manning will stay....but Virgin will expand...
Profits now will stay small because of Singapore airlines.... Who likes to pay out when money can be move around...by the way what did happen to the 600 million from the 49% sale...Did it go to Virgin group or our expansion...but I was told our profits went on our expansion. Anyway what the company do with the money is there own business but when they say there is no money out there then think again.....we are getting bigger..
Credit cards are on the way .....new computers for crew check-in and briefing rooms.
So if you have been tolded there is no money out there.....Why has LM just sent you FSM's and letter saying the FSM pay will be addressed..Also during the forums with FSM's and CSS "we would like to see you better payed"..but management say there is no money..!
The two just don't meet up do they....One minute there is no money in the pot...the next FSM's and CSS pay will be addressed..? who is following the carrot..?
We as cabin crew have to start somewhere and voice our opinions very much like BA did years and years ago.....think of your future with Virgin...Virgin will grow...will your pay...look at your pension forcasts..?
Virgin Dolly
The management are using scare tactics and there will be no redundancies. Virgin is expanding come open skies so Virgin will be flying business class flight out of Paris, Milan, Frankfurt etc, etc they will need everybody they can put there hands on in two and a half years time.
With the growth of Virgin Blue, Virgin Red and VA there is no chance of a fold up....!Just growth.
Now that recruitment has stopped we will soon be running crew down and variable manning will be with us for a long time. Don't forget about crew with buns in the oven like me, long time sickness and reduced rosters and crew leaving which is a lot. Can I say that the 900 hours is all that the CAA say we can work.....over that then we are being over worked. This was a massive blow the the company and why you see crew having one flight in a month because they are on high hours this is not fair. How long have the company been getting away with this.....years..Thank you CAA.
Virgin Nigeria...No company makes a profit for the first few years.....Sales are up though.... so think of the future and where do you think the money came from for the start up..... Virgin Group (the Cake)
We virgin are a slice of a cake in the virgin group like v cargo and V holidays. I have been told we don't get any money from v cargo or v holidays as they are separate companies. It's all about profits and moving cash around from company to company so there is money out there.
Ok if the management get a yes vote...fantastic they get their bonus for xmas. Crew get their money for xmas minus tax and that put most FSM's over a tax bracket so they will see far less.
Do you really think Virgin will let us strike.....? NO
Will RB let VA strike thats also the question...? NO
What will the public think of him if we do...?
Brand, Brand, Brand..
We are entering a time of unknown...I'm scared and who wouldn't be.
We will lose CM14 in the near future, we will be crew down and variable manning will stay....but Virgin will expand...
Profits now will stay small because of Singapore airlines.... Who likes to pay out when money can be move around...by the way what did happen to the 600 million from the 49% sale...Did it go to Virgin group or our expansion...but I was told our profits went on our expansion. Anyway what the company do with the money is there own business but when they say there is no money out there then think again.....we are getting bigger..
Credit cards are on the way .....new computers for crew check-in and briefing rooms.
So if you have been tolded there is no money out there.....Why has LM just sent you FSM's and letter saying the FSM pay will be addressed..Also during the forums with FSM's and CSS "we would like to see you better payed"..but management say there is no money..!
The two just don't meet up do they....One minute there is no money in the pot...the next FSM's and CSS pay will be addressed..? who is following the carrot..?
We as cabin crew have to start somewhere and voice our opinions very much like BA did years and years ago.....think of your future with Virgin...Virgin will grow...will your pay...look at your pension forcasts..?
Virgin Dolly
Last edited by virgin dolly; 13th Oct 2007 at 16:06. Reason: whoops
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I've been following this very long discussion with equal amounts of interest and bemusement. There have been some very valid points made and some comments that are just plain out there 
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm all for free speech. These are my feelings on the pay discussions, which I'm certain some will agree with and others won't. Either way, I'm not enforcing my opinion on anyone, it's purely my opportunity to express my thoughts....
There has been a lot of talk about a fairer deal for FSMs/CSSs. Indeed there have been a few comments on here along the lines of "I was happy with what I got when I joined as a Junior but expect more now I've worked my way through the ranks". The company are now proposing a deal along these lines with an better package for onboard managers(OBMs). However the response is now changing to....what about the Juniors and Seniors? Surely by offering an improved deal to the OBMs it is an incentive to stay with the company and work your way through the ranks thus decreasing the high staff turnover and the costs this incurs.
The initial offer was derisory and I'm sorry our ground staff are not represented and therefore had this offer forced upon them. It does cause a divide within the company and generates a certain amount of ill feeling. I look forward to the day when engineers, ground crew and all other departments are able to negotiate a deal that is right for them. Everyone plays an integral role in the day to day running of the airline and should be recognised for it accordingly.
The subsequent offers had all sorts of if and buts attached to them and were of course rejected as well.
There are discussions going on all over the Internet about this pay deal. This is just one of many. Some of the mud slingers have even resorted to hurling insults at our customers, causing irrepairable damage to the business. It's a simple business theory, but where do they think the money comes from to fund pay increases??
The latest offer deserves serious consideration. Those who have worked in the airline industry for any period of time will realise just how volitile it is. The success rests largely on the prosperity of the economy and a looming recession will cause a dramatic down turn. It doesn't matter whether a strike occurs over a 24hr, 7 day or 1 month period, it will cause devastating results. Those who are considering a no vote must bear this in mind.
I've invested over 10 years with Virgin Atlantic. I enjoy my job, work very hard and reap the rewards. Is it the best paid job? No it isn't. Is it the best job? To me it is, there is nothing else I want to do. Am I prepared to jump on the gravy train for a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? No, I'm prepared to accept a reasonable offer which has very few conditions attached. Oh and before anyone says "it's just another management invasion trying to fudge the discussion"....my answer is....yes I am a manager.....on onboard manager.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm all for free speech. These are my feelings on the pay discussions, which I'm certain some will agree with and others won't. Either way, I'm not enforcing my opinion on anyone, it's purely my opportunity to express my thoughts....
There has been a lot of talk about a fairer deal for FSMs/CSSs. Indeed there have been a few comments on here along the lines of "I was happy with what I got when I joined as a Junior but expect more now I've worked my way through the ranks". The company are now proposing a deal along these lines with an better package for onboard managers(OBMs). However the response is now changing to....what about the Juniors and Seniors? Surely by offering an improved deal to the OBMs it is an incentive to stay with the company and work your way through the ranks thus decreasing the high staff turnover and the costs this incurs.
The initial offer was derisory and I'm sorry our ground staff are not represented and therefore had this offer forced upon them. It does cause a divide within the company and generates a certain amount of ill feeling. I look forward to the day when engineers, ground crew and all other departments are able to negotiate a deal that is right for them. Everyone plays an integral role in the day to day running of the airline and should be recognised for it accordingly.
The subsequent offers had all sorts of if and buts attached to them and were of course rejected as well.
There are discussions going on all over the Internet about this pay deal. This is just one of many. Some of the mud slingers have even resorted to hurling insults at our customers, causing irrepairable damage to the business. It's a simple business theory, but where do they think the money comes from to fund pay increases??
The latest offer deserves serious consideration. Those who have worked in the airline industry for any period of time will realise just how volitile it is. The success rests largely on the prosperity of the economy and a looming recession will cause a dramatic down turn. It doesn't matter whether a strike occurs over a 24hr, 7 day or 1 month period, it will cause devastating results. Those who are considering a no vote must bear this in mind.
I've invested over 10 years with Virgin Atlantic. I enjoy my job, work very hard and reap the rewards. Is it the best paid job? No it isn't. Is it the best job? To me it is, there is nothing else I want to do. Am I prepared to jump on the gravy train for a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? No, I'm prepared to accept a reasonable offer which has very few conditions attached. Oh and before anyone says "it's just another management invasion trying to fudge the discussion"....my answer is....yes I am a manager.....on onboard manager.
Last edited by High as a Kite; 14th Oct 2007 at 08:09. Reason: previous submission did not work
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Hi High!
I may be wrong but it seems as though its all the CSSs and FSMs that are voting yes and JNRs and SNRs that are voting no.
I think you quoted me in your last post. I mentioned some posts ago that after 13 years with the company and with my position as an FSM, I would like to see some loyalty from the company for my experience and expertise. I feel that the new pay deal almost does this, not quite, but almost and that is why I am voting yes. Before we know it the new pay deal will ready for talks again and I think there will be some significant changes within the UNION.
To be honest, I cant say I have been very impressed with Unite during this period. I have found their communication weak and that last offer with all those strings attached was pretty awful! Think I would have preferred the 2% with no strings!
However I dont forget all the other things that they have done such as days off before leave, maternity ground placement money etc etc.
I think if they had been seen to be working with the crew more as opposed to the company, then maybe people would have backed them more and groups like wedeservemoremoney would not have sprung up.
I personally feel as though the whole thing has got out of hand. So many crew are going to vote no with no real understanding of what strike action will do. Not all crew, I dont want to patronise, but silly groups on Facebook and postings of `Bring on the strike' make me cringe.
There is most certainly bad feeling within VAA now, which I think is such a shame and maybe something that we wont be able to reverse.
I mentioned earlier that I had lost some faith in the union, the poeple I have not lost faith in however are our Flight Deck. I have heard more sense come out of their mouths than anyone else in the Union. These guys are in the know and I personally feel are the best ones to lean on for advice and opinions.
I may be alone here, but I cant see the company stumping up any more cash. I think they have met us the middle which in my book is fair
I may be wrong but it seems as though its all the CSSs and FSMs that are voting yes and JNRs and SNRs that are voting no.
I think you quoted me in your last post. I mentioned some posts ago that after 13 years with the company and with my position as an FSM, I would like to see some loyalty from the company for my experience and expertise. I feel that the new pay deal almost does this, not quite, but almost and that is why I am voting yes. Before we know it the new pay deal will ready for talks again and I think there will be some significant changes within the UNION.
To be honest, I cant say I have been very impressed with Unite during this period. I have found their communication weak and that last offer with all those strings attached was pretty awful! Think I would have preferred the 2% with no strings!
However I dont forget all the other things that they have done such as days off before leave, maternity ground placement money etc etc.
I think if they had been seen to be working with the crew more as opposed to the company, then maybe people would have backed them more and groups like wedeservemoremoney would not have sprung up.
I personally feel as though the whole thing has got out of hand. So many crew are going to vote no with no real understanding of what strike action will do. Not all crew, I dont want to patronise, but silly groups on Facebook and postings of `Bring on the strike' make me cringe.
There is most certainly bad feeling within VAA now, which I think is such a shame and maybe something that we wont be able to reverse.
I mentioned earlier that I had lost some faith in the union, the poeple I have not lost faith in however are our Flight Deck. I have heard more sense come out of their mouths than anyone else in the Union. These guys are in the know and I personally feel are the best ones to lean on for advice and opinions.
I may be alone here, but I cant see the company stumping up any more cash. I think they have met us the middle which in my book is fair
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You're not alone SITYR, I completely agree.
I just think it's all getting out of hand, and I'm getting a little sick of the militants who are forcing their opinion on everybody. It's getting to the point where I am loath to admit I'm voting "Yes" because of the backlash I'd recieve. I've considered my options, and read that piece of paper til I started dreaming of it!!!
I don't think we're paid fairly, but I think we'll be losing more by striking; I feel that we've little more to gain, but an awful lot more to lose.
I just think it's all getting out of hand, and I'm getting a little sick of the militants who are forcing their opinion on everybody. It's getting to the point where I am loath to admit I'm voting "Yes" because of the backlash I'd recieve. I've considered my options, and read that piece of paper til I started dreaming of it!!!
I don't think we're paid fairly, but I think we'll be losing more by striking; I feel that we've little more to gain, but an awful lot more to lose.
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Hi sign-it-to-your-room & LittleMissKiwi,
I really hope there are plenty who think like us so the latest offer is voted in.
In any negotiations there has got to be some give and take. Anyone who looks into the finer detail of the pilots last pay deal will know they had to relinquish plenty in order to reach an agreement that was acceptable.
There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and the attitude of a small minority to strike no matter what makes me
I'm voting YES to the pay deal
I really hope there are plenty who think like us so the latest offer is voted in.
In any negotiations there has got to be some give and take. Anyone who looks into the finer detail of the pilots last pay deal will know they had to relinquish plenty in order to reach an agreement that was acceptable.
There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and the attitude of a small minority to strike no matter what makes me
I'm voting YES to the pay deal
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Yes thats right, the pilots had to give up airshare for example, but they did this with little fuss.
I have a feeling that this vote will come back as a NO. I dont think I have come across any FSMs (like myself) that will be voting NO, we all seem to be voting YES along with the majority of CSSs. However the lions share of crew are made up of SNRs and JNRs and I have still to pinpoint one person that is voting YES.
I am also predicting that there will be a majority of crew who will vote NO to strike. So where does that leave us? Scooby is confident that it will not automatically revert back to 2%, others are not so confident.
I do have a couple of questions.
1. As I am voting YES, will i still be balloted to strike if the majority vote NO?
2. At what stage would crew lose their anonymity in relation to strike voting. When they vote to strike or when/if the strike takes place?
I have a feeling that this vote will come back as a NO. I dont think I have come across any FSMs (like myself) that will be voting NO, we all seem to be voting YES along with the majority of CSSs. However the lions share of crew are made up of SNRs and JNRs and I have still to pinpoint one person that is voting YES.
I am also predicting that there will be a majority of crew who will vote NO to strike. So where does that leave us? Scooby is confident that it will not automatically revert back to 2%, others are not so confident.
I do have a couple of questions.
1. As I am voting YES, will i still be balloted to strike if the majority vote NO?
2. At what stage would crew lose their anonymity in relation to strike voting. When they vote to strike or when/if the strike takes place?
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Hi sigh-it-to-your-room,
last week i spoke to one of our union reps and amoung others where the two questions you asked, and this is what i was informed.
If the vote comes back a no, then all members will be involved in the Industrial action ballot. (i hope we don't see this ballot)
As to yours mine and all members Anonymity, if we have to vote on industrial action and that comes back a yes to action then by law Virgin will be given all members names.
I for my own reasons have voted yes to this offer!!
Even with a yes vote, i do hope Virgin address all the issues that they have been made aware off from all of us crew, they must act on what they have been told!!!
last week i spoke to one of our union reps and amoung others where the two questions you asked, and this is what i was informed.
If the vote comes back a no, then all members will be involved in the Industrial action ballot. (i hope we don't see this ballot)
As to yours mine and all members Anonymity, if we have to vote on industrial action and that comes back a yes to action then by law Virgin will be given all members names.
I for my own reasons have voted yes to this offer!!
Even with a yes vote, i do hope Virgin address all the issues that they have been made aware off from all of us crew, they must act on what they have been told!!!
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My thoughts exactly Virginracer,
Rome wasnt built in a day and I think that this has been a huge learning curve from the CSMs right up to SRB himself.
Virgin were always THE company to work for and crew were prepared to take a drop in salary in place of a great lifestyle. This has now changed completely though. The cost of living (especially in the SE where we are contracted to be) has hit the roof and we have gained some less desirable routes!
It is now common knowledge that the Virgin family are growing apart and that in order to get the highest calibre of crew, then pay needs to be seriously addressed.
I think they will do this, but it will take time. I'd especially like to see Crew Down addressed and the loss of variable manning, which may seem to work in theory but practically it does nothing but rob the customers and upset the service.
Its no doubt a stressful time at the moment, and its starting to annoy me I have to say. I had no idea that 75% of our crew had degrees in Business Management
Rome wasnt built in a day and I think that this has been a huge learning curve from the CSMs right up to SRB himself.
Virgin were always THE company to work for and crew were prepared to take a drop in salary in place of a great lifestyle. This has now changed completely though. The cost of living (especially in the SE where we are contracted to be) has hit the roof and we have gained some less desirable routes!
It is now common knowledge that the Virgin family are growing apart and that in order to get the highest calibre of crew, then pay needs to be seriously addressed.
I think they will do this, but it will take time. I'd especially like to see Crew Down addressed and the loss of variable manning, which may seem to work in theory but practically it does nothing but rob the customers and upset the service.
Its no doubt a stressful time at the moment, and its starting to annoy me I have to say. I had no idea that 75% of our crew had degrees in Business Management
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fao strikertworedshoes
LM sent a letter to all FSMs, regardless of union membership. Non union members recieved the letter too.
Why do you accuse virginracer of scaremongering?
Surely if crew are willing to vote NO and reject this deal then they must be prepared to strike? Therefore why are they scared?
Striking is major, so if they are bold enough to shout STRIKE from any forum that will hear them, then they must be bold enough to allow the company to know who they are?
I link the two (lastest vote and strike ballot) because I believe that if you vote NO, then you must be prepared to strike as the Union and company have so clearly communicated, and not rely on it going back to the table which may or may not happen, so why should crew be scared?
Makes me think that crew will vote No to deal and No to strike, as I've said all along.
Posts like yours just make me sigh
Why do you accuse virginracer of scaremongering?
Surely if crew are willing to vote NO and reject this deal then they must be prepared to strike? Therefore why are they scared?
Striking is major, so if they are bold enough to shout STRIKE from any forum that will hear them, then they must be bold enough to allow the company to know who they are?
I link the two (lastest vote and strike ballot) because I believe that if you vote NO, then you must be prepared to strike as the Union and company have so clearly communicated, and not rely on it going back to the table which may or may not happen, so why should crew be scared?
Makes me think that crew will vote No to deal and No to strike, as I've said all along.
Posts like yours just make me sigh
Last edited by sign-it-to-your-room; 15th Oct 2007 at 11:23.