I'm sorry - we do fly for a living, and some of us were doing so yesterday. I quite agree - comparing 9/11 with an industrial dispute demeans the event and cheapens the argument. The post has now been deleted.

There is a significant difference between these events, and if you genuinely cannot see what it is, then your perspective is somewhat skewed and you may need a break from this board to recover it.

reading all the arguments pro/con on the seniority debate,i offer the following opinions:
1/i have been working for qf for a while and i dont get all my requests.
2/the federal,state,(westminister,democratic) system of government, police,defence force,apprentice ships in all major trades,etc,etc,use seniority as a means of allocating priorities and perks.
3/the contributers who ridiculed those who,have families/are single parents/are doing studies/have needy senior parents etc etc will one day be in a situation where seniority will be a great advantage.
4/seniority is exactly that.the longer you are dedicated to doing what you do,the better conditions get.
5/the 'new age' THING,is i want it all and i want it now.ok,i ask what is left to achieve or have.if you have it all.NOW.what is your goal,what can you look forward to,why would you need to work harder.very boreing existance.all has been achieved.
6/the fact that senior people, with a seniority system, bid for the trips they do, is because they can.if all those people who are complaining could do it they would.
7/AND when those of you who are complaining now, advance in years and seniority,you will lament the actions you are attempting at the moment.
8/remember you will not always be young and agressive.
9/one day you may be a parent or a partner whos' home life is as equally as important as your income an really desire the seniority system, to do as you wish.
10/i was young and agressive once,and achieved little.
11/now i am wiser,and see the benefit of patience.
12/you can't teach experience,and even I, learn something every time i go to work.
13/if you want it all NOW,need it all NOW,then, tell me you KNOW it all NOW,
and i will listen to your argument.
14/it better be a good one.
15/there is no FREE LUNCH,and you can't get SOMETHING FOR NOTHING.
16/but that is what you want.
17/destroy the seniority system and selfishily you will destroy many individuals and families.
18/it takes many years to do this job properly,there is no shortcut.
19/you will eventually get to SFO
20/justify all the reasons you want change,with reasons why it would be better for all and someone MAY listen.

well said yellow flag,

I hear a lot of argument pro the seniority system and you have pretty much covered them all, and to be honest i tend to agree with your sentiments. Having said that though, whilst i believe that seniority has a role to play i do not believe that it should be entirely "winner takes ALL"

Perhaps there is some room for some minor modifications to the system of work allocation, holiday bidding etc that may see some of the less senior get something rather than absolutely nothing. in order to achieve some sort of greater equity however we need to be sure that we do not destroy it for the majority in the process and also that we do not hand the system over to the company.

In a general sense, the reason that management do not like the seniroty system is basically a philosphical objection based on the fact that it gives the employees the majority of the power rather than the company.

Oh sure they have tried to undermine it with Demand days and courses and stuffing around with divisors and language allocation etc etc however, the system in general allows us crew to make the choices and not management and it Effing well nearly kills them

That alone is good enuf reason for me to want to keep it

Flag & Peg,
At last a breath of fresh air and common sence on this thread, thank you both.
To all the moaning Gen. X & Yer's at QF read flag's post carefully you might learn something!!

Quote-

"Perhaps there is some room for some minor modifications to the system of work allocation, holiday bidding etc that may see some of the less senior get something rather than absolutely nothing. "

Hear hear......

Just "flatten it out" so that those at the top dont get ALL and EVERYTHING that they bid for, with the result that those further down might then get SOMETHING that they bid for.

A cap on the number of "same pattern trips" per roster wouldnt hurt those at the top too much, would it????

Biscuit,
I fail to see how the new 'In the Zone' service would contribute to people leaving. Are you suggesting that because you terribly overworked L/H crew have to now hand out a hot towel to Y class pax that this will cause a mass exodus? That's all this new 'In the Zone' service is !! The new apron, scarf/tie for CSS's and PA's are nothing to be worried about. Hardly thought it would push any of you over the edge.

Thanks BC had previously completed the course online through the QF crew website before making my comments.

Really...it's just a hot towel.

Yes Yes I agree with your other comments (undercrewed etc etc). My point is the new 'In the Zone' service will not contribute to resignations in QF L/H.

B.C.
you sent me an email re 'homework and 'sarcastic comments' neither of which i have posted or mentioned here.
please be more accurate with your vitriol.attention to detail, when you send emails,is necessary.
your comments,i think, should have been directed to 'sonique'
an apology would be appreciated.

I think its about time that the FAAA surveyed crew about the bid system and seniority in general to assess the general level of satisfaction with it in its current form.

It should be a reasonably simple yes/no question that asks crew whether they are even interested in the FAAA pursuing a more detailed and general examination and survey of members.

If the response in majority YES, then perhaps they would do the more detailed study and give crew some options to vote on. If the response is NO and the majority of crew dont want any changes even to be contemplated then i think they should leave it alone completely.

As some have suggested, the company can go to individual contracts under the new law. And if they want an end to the Winner takes all senority system that causes such dissatisfaction among many crew then they may choose that option.

Personally i would rather crew themselves keep the agenda in their own hands and let the members of the FAAA control it and work out what they want and dont want. By perhaps some minor modification and all crew working together on the project and taking ownership may be viewed as a benefit of collective bargaining by the company.

As i have said in here before, the key to our job security in my opinion is flexibility......

The bid system and seniority are just one thing on the company's agenda, better to be at the table dealing than out in the cold looking in

Hi,

a question to all the QF Longhaulers..........

As a shorthaul CSM, if i turned up to L/H in the new CSM transfer within category thing, would i be hammered by the crew or be accepted and the crew would just do their thing?

Oh, by the way, i have only be flying 5mins compared to most L/H crews. I have no doubt that would count...?!

I would appreciated the honest answer (even if you have to 'pm' me). I know you guys arent shy...i have no doubt i'll hear the truth!

cheers.

SH

In all honesty i think a lot of crew would resent you. Having said that i think i should explain. It takes 6 years minimum to be a CSM in LH and you have to spend time as a CSS 1st which is already a merit selected position.

i do not think that crew will be openly hostile to you, but you will be watched very closely and you talent assessed assiduously.

LH and SH have very different cultures and LH CSM's are usually experienced in the culture and are therefore able to manage it.

There are a number of quite senior CSM's in LH that are ex short haul and i would suggest that you may wish to contact them for advise.

The Number 1 csm in melbourne is an ex short haul CSM that was appointed to the position in LH after applying for it in the division and from what i understand has earned respect from the crew.

I would suggest that a long Haul CSM was considerably more experienced that Short Haul CSM's until the regional flying that short haul do. However there is a big difference between an airbus and 767 and three class 747..

Good luck

Peg 747,

Thanks for the feedback, i reckon your spot on. I have NO doubt that i would be under some serious scrutiny by all the crew. I do understand the whole CSS/CSM thing and have total respect for the position of a L/H CSM.

But on the same hand, it certainly wasnt me who decided that overnight a CSM S/H could become a L/H CSM, and that is one point that i hope the crew would take on.

It is something that i am toying with and certainly interested in, at the end of the day i guess i would have to work hard to earn the respect of my crew. And thats the case no matter what division you fly in!

Thanks for the response.

Pegasus,
Will this survey/vote on seniority/bidding system be carried out like the JFK vote in other words by the faaa or by the AEC for the faaa ?

You have been told several times during last year about the ballot mechanisms, but obviously it just does not sink into your head like many other concepts.

FOR THE FINAL TIME - THE AEC (AUSTRALIAN ELECTORAL COMMISSION) DOES NOT- I REPEAT - DOES NOT, CONDUCT BALLOTS FOR UNIONS OR ANY OTHER ORGANISATIONS ON ISSUES SUCH AS A SENIORITY BALLOT.

The AEC, conducts state and federal elections and referenda and conducts union elections (i.e elections for elected office in unions).

HAS IT SUNK IN THIS TIME lowerlobe???????

Your suggestion that the AEC carries out these sorts of ballots is extremely offensive, because you are implying that the FAAA rigs votes.

Be a hero and say that publicly, and i'm sure you will enjoy the defamation writ that would arrive at your address within 24 hours.

Hopefully, you will never again refer to your ridiculous assertions that the AEC can conduct union ballots such as a seniority bid system ballot.

Lowerlobe...i think that the nick says it all. a redudant waste of space gotten rid of years ago and replaced by more efficient alternatives..

Eden, i wasnt suggesting that the FAAA conduct a vote on the seniority system just on whether crew want the fAAA to even enter the fray on the issue,

I have every confidence that the FAAA would conduct a ballot in the best interests of the members..could it be done on the FAAA website electronically ..just a simple YES/NO question as to whether the members want a survey sent out or not??

That would at least give some indication to the elected officials of whether its even warranted.

On another note i read your previous post about the AEC some time ago and of course you are correct as a call to the AEC will verify. Ballots cost 000's of dollars when conducted by external bodies thats why something as simple as a survey can be done internally at as minimal cost as possible.

We trust the FAAA officials enough to elect them and run the 2 mill dollar business and they have done a fantastic job i reckon. The fact that after decades of rent we now own a building is promise fullfilled that i for one think is long overdue

I have to disagree with this. Having been in the public service for many years, the Government is required to treat all employee's equally and award them the same benefits. If you do the same job, you are paid in the same band and you get the same perks (not that there are many). Just because you've worked the same job for 20+ years doesn't mean you are treated any better or worse. The Government employs a merit based system which is enshrined in legislation. In no way could you possibly have the top 10% of longest serving public servants (assuming they're all in the same band) getting more choice of holidays or workloads etc, it's completely unheard of.

The problem here is that Qantas is no longer a Public Sector Business Enterprise although many people think it is and refuse to move on.

I'm not saying there isn't room for a seniority system, but I the current system needs to be reviewed, if anything to put this issue to rest.

As previously mentioned, you can only enjoy seniority if more people are employed and I think we all know those days have well and truly passed!!!

Eden 99 or should I say MM or SR..

My solicitor is looking for you for my defamation case on you.Would you be so kind as to pm me with your real name and address.

The AEC not only carries out voting/referendums for unions but it is very legal to do so !!!!!

This then negates any hint of an illegal vote and as I have only found 3 crew so far that have admitted to voting YES this would have stopped any allegation of rigging.

If you guys are really with the union as I suspect then it is of great concern what else you have got wrong and of any other legal concept you have.

I have forgotten which one of you said that you had doubts that a vote was necessary at all but now I know why !!!!!!

EDEN where on Earth did you do your legal studies...K-MART

I REPEAT THE AEC DOES DO THESE FOR UNIONS AND THE FAAA REFUSED TO DO THIS FOR REASONS KNOWN ONLY TO THEMSELVES

Great to see some debate on the issue of seniority. This implies there is an issue that does need reviewing. Oz skipper is totally correct with his/her post.
Peg, I believe it would be logical to send a notice to crew (in their files) explaining the history of the bid system, how it came to be and the issues surrounding it. This also allows the FAAA to offer caution in any respects if it feels warranted.In the file is preferable to the FAAA website as some members may not have access to a computer etc. Following the newsletter then a ballot could then be held to determine if it is an issue that requires further investigation or action.

Lowerlobe, in relation to the JFK ballot my understanding is that the person who did the count was a former FSD and former AICCA official who is unbelievably beyond repute.
Perhaps you should inquire as to whom that person was and you will regain confidence in our current officials for making an excellent decision.If there is a ballot for interest in exploring added options/alternatives to the bid system can you (FAAA) please use the same person as was used for the JFK ballot?

you cant undo 35 or so amendments to the original bid system. however you may be able to limit trips AND put an instant online trip swap system in place. as long as the minimum turn arounds are not infringed you should be able to instantly swap with open time or other f/a's triops online. there is no perfect system but this could help PRA's if f/a's can swap online. they may sometimes not get there perfect choice but second choice is sometimes good enough.

How about this for an idea for a change in the bidding/rostering system.

Rather than cap the number of trips people do - why not 'flag' those trips that are particularly unpopular. Currently JNB and BOM for example.
If everyone was required to do one of these trips (similar to reserve) - you'd only be seeing them on your roster once every 3 or 4 bid periods. No great hard ship for anyone. It would give juniors a much wider choice of trips - share out the unpopular duties and still not really limit the senior crew from doing whatever they want for the rest of the time.
The incentive for the company could be - if you go sick on one - you get it back, pre-allocated in the next bid period. Would cut sick leave hugely and hence also be of benefit to the company.

Just a thought.......