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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

Ragnor 15th Jan 2021 19:11

EK are terminating flights to SY, ML and BN indefinitely in January. EK will still fly twice a week to PH
  • Dubai-Brisbane (EK430), January 16
  • Brisbane-Dubai (EK431), January 17
  • Dubai-Sydney (EK414), January 18
  • Sydney-Dubai (EK415), January 19
  • Dubai-Melbourne (EK408), January 19
  • Melbourne-Dubai (EK409), January 20



Paragraph377 15th Jan 2021 20:34


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10968318)
No increase in suicide rate so far. Probably attributable to jobkeeper.


No real change in Medicare and PBS payouts from 19 to 20, after a short decrease in March/April, suggesting the same amount of medical services were being accessed in 2020 as 2019.


USA and Europe took a bigger financial hit, due to the pandemic currently raging through those places. All in all Australia's lock it out policy has done the best job.


A CFR of 2% (disregarding health system pressures, and long term complications) is actually really bad.


Australia has a higher obesity rate than Belgium, France, Italy, Spain and a higher or comparable smoking rate than the UK, Sweden, Chile, Ireland which have all been hammered by the pandemic. Which suggests similar infection and death rates would present here if we "just learnt to live with it".

You cherry pick what suits you in your response. Firstly, quoting Government published statistics is akin to believing we have reptilians living amongst us. Anyone believing the Government has already been fooled.

Secondly, our financial hit has been huge. Maybe big corporations and large companies are weathering things, just, but try telling your theory of “it’s not too bad here” to the tens of thousands of businesses that have gone to the wall. The real impact of COVID is yet to be seen. We are still in the early days of this maelstrom. The full impact is on its way.

Predator Jock 15th Jan 2021 21:44


We are still in the early days of this maelstrom. The full impact is on its way.
I agree with Para377. The Great Depression ‘began’ in 1929 but it took four years before it bottomed in some countries, with many still flat at the start of WW2. Demand went off a cliff. Ever wonder why your grandparents or great grandparents never threw anything out and we’re constantly coming up with ways to repair the unrepairable? Back in the day they weren’t going to the pub to pay Rockpool prices or having a plumber come in to change washers. They were busy tightening their belts and making do.

It’s going to be unpalatable to many but eventually we will be best served by coming to terms with being the quarry and paddock for 1.7 billion eager customers. Put it to the voters.

goodonyamate 15th Jan 2021 23:15


Originally Posted by stickshaken (Post 10968704)
Paragraph377-One thing you forgot was the requirement for 1000’s more solicitors.
There will be mass class actions and law suit‘s before this is all over.

hopefully against McGowan, palachook and Andrews personally.

dr dre 16th Jan 2021 01:36


Originally Posted by Paragraph377 (Post 10968617)
You cherry pick what suits you in your response. Firstly, quoting Government published statistics is akin to believing we have reptilians living amongst us. Anyone believing the Government has already been fooled.

So where’s the “real” info then mate? I’ve tried to back up my statements with official sources and hard data but all you do is decry “that’s BS” and then offer nothing of your own?

Reminds me of this:


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....7dd2d8f4b.jpeg


neville_nobody 16th Jan 2021 02:03

Frank Swain might want to remember he who pays the piper calls the tune, which has becomes a bit of an issue in more recent times. You only need to look at all the recanting so-called scientists did when Jeffry Epstein died and all their funding dried up.

dr dre 16th Jan 2021 02:09

Oh no so now all the “so called scientific experts” are on the pay check of the globalist paedophile cult! Please enlighten us how this is linked to pizzagate, Q-Anon and the great reset, and how Trump will save us from it all.....

Vag277 16th Jan 2021 02:21

...and the fred publics think airline pilots are intelligent!!!!!

neville_nobody 16th Jan 2021 02:28


Oh no so now all the “so called scientific experts” are on the pay check of the globalist paedophile cult! Please enlighten us how this is linked to pizzagate, Q-Anon and the great reset, and how Trump will save us from it all.....
No nothing to do with that. Epstein was privately funding eugenic research but when he died so did the funding. The scientist then came out and said their research should be discounted.

I'm sure a few large corporations have spun research one way or another to suit their ends as well.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/31/b...-eugenics.html

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019...cience-he-died

SOPS 16th Jan 2021 02:35

Positive cases arriving with the Tennis people.... here we go again!!!!

CaptCloudbuster 16th Jan 2021 02:41


Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 10968158)
The tennis players are here because of a long standing agreement and three months of very detailed planning (I was advised by someone who has a part in it) and a comprehensive organisational plan. When each Victorian can provide the same undertakings and level of detail, they can get special treatment too..

Some of you still don't understand.....

The moral of the story is don't travel unless you have to, have backup plans, listen to the news hourly and be prepared to move fast.

All that beautiful planning and yet our betters & overlords still didn’t understand what a terrible risk they were playing with the peasants!

Moral of the story is unless you’re big business, a celebrity, a sportsperson or Uber rich you’ll do what the overlords say not what they do.

Two coronavirus cases reportedly confirmed on Australian Open chartered flight into Melbourne



Chris2303 16th Jan 2021 03:00

https://www.news.com.au/world/corona...OYxD0Q6TrRJ2lE

layman 16th Jan 2021 03:07

neville_nobody (and others)

As asked before, what verifiable information do you offer in place of published scientific research?

You seem to omitting the effect of ‘peer review’ from your attempt at disparagement of scientific research (and government statistics).

I would have been very surprised (we’ll never know now) if research sponsored by Epstein would have been published in a recognised scientific journal.

Peer review culls most of the ‘not proven‘/‘not verifiable‘/‘not repeatable’ from publication and is independent of the money. If you’ve been through academic ‘peer review’ you’ll understand just what a blood sport it can be.

There is generally more to be gained by proving some research has issues than the actual research itself.

neville_nobody 16th Jan 2021 03:59


As asked before, what verifiable information do you offer in place of published scientific research?

You seem to omitting the effect of ‘peer review’ from your attempt at disparagement of scientific research (and government statistics).

I would have been very surprised (we’ll never know now) if research sponsored by Epstein would have been published in a recognised scientific journal.

Peer review culls most of the ‘not proven‘/‘not verifiable‘/‘not repeatable’ from publication and is independent of the money. If you’ve been through academic ‘peer review’ you’ll understand just what a blood sport it can be.

There is generally more to be gained by proving some research has issues than the actual research itself.
I am not arguing that. Just saying things need to be read in balance and taken with a grain of salt. Not everything is black and white and not all scientific research or government data is 100% honest.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was 16th Jan 2021 04:50


Originally Posted by layman (Post 10968799)
neville_nobody (and others)

As asked before, what verifiable information do you offer in place of published scientific research?

You seem to omitting the effect of ‘peer review’ from your attempt at disparagement of scientific research (and government statistics).

I would have been very surprised (we’ll never know now) if research sponsored by Epstein would have been published in a recognised scientific journal.

Peer review culls most of the ‘not proven‘/‘not verifiable‘/‘not repeatable’ from publication and is independent of the money. If you’ve been through academic ‘peer review’ you’ll understand just what a blood sport it can be.

There is generally more to be gained by proving some research has issues than the actual research itself.

Don't mistake "peer review" as any sort of gold standard. It does not guarantee that the research is the truth, and it does not guarantee that vested interests are not at work. There is often no process to follow, or level to achieve to claim peer review status. There is little proof that it actually improves anything. It's become a rubber stamp catch-all to stifle debate.

dr dre 16th Jan 2021 05:41


Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was (Post 10968829)
Don't mistake "peer review" as any sort of gold standard. It does not guarantee that the research is the truth


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 10968818)
Not everything is black and white and not all scientific research or government data is 100% honest.

When you are claiming, without the relevant medical qualifications, that the scientific derived consensus on this pandemic is incorrect you had better provide some very, very solid evidence and be prepared to have it stand up to massive amounts of scrutiny. Otherwise you really are just sprouting conspiracy theories.


and it does not guarantee that vested interests are not at work
One could say that some pilots who want things to get back to how they were before this happened have a vested interest in minimising and downplaying any risks associated with the pandemic or just outright claiming it's a hoax and claiming all restrictions that affect their income like border closures are pointless. Therefore they are more susceptible to fall for pseudoscience and propaganda.

I understand the hardships plenty in this industry are facing. That's why we need to listen to the medical experts and follow their advice (social distancing, remote quarantining, mass uptake of the vaccine) in order to get back to normal as soon as safely possible.

Joker89 16th Jan 2021 05:47

Dre, you seem to live in a fantasy land where everything the government says (and supported by their paid “expert” lap dogs) is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

there are as many studies in support of and against lockdowns. There is no consensus.

what is clear is this is a political wet dream and these chief medical officers are basking in their glory of being important rule makers for the only time in their lives. They don’t want this to end.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was 16th Jan 2021 07:05


When you are claiming, without the relevant medical qualifications, that the scientific derived consensus on this pandemic is incorrect you had better provide some very, very solid evidence and be prepared to have it stand up to massive amounts of scrutiny. Otherwise you really are just sprouting conspiracy theories.
I wasn't claiming that at all. I was rebutting the comment that peer review is the be all and end all of the argument.

Royal Society of Medicine
Nature
NY Times
Science Alert
Wikipedia

Etc etc.

Paragraph377 16th Jan 2021 08:00

Mr Dre, why don’t you come out and support the WHO’s October 2020 statement that lockdowns shouldn’t be the only option adopted? It would seem Jeannette Young and Daniel Andrews haven’t been listening. And the QLD Premier along with lapdog Young shut down a city of 2.2m people for 3 days due to 1 solitary case.

Oh well, I guess some people on here are so scared and have so much of fear of a virus that they are prepared to be brainwashed by the Government establishments who lie and deceive with every word they speak. Some peoples comfort blanket is strange indeed.

dr dre 16th Jan 2021 08:05


Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was (Post 10968854)
I wasn't claiming that at all. I was rebutting the comment that peer review is the be all and end all of the argument.

Those articles are mostly highlighting some issues with the scientific peer review process and suggesting improvements, not saying the peer review process should be discarded completely, to be replaced by....what?

Yes, there are some papers and articles published saying that lockdowns don't work, or more accurately say that current lockdown measures should be altered. However, there is a lot, and I mean a lot, of other articles, statements, evidence and authoritative opinion by far more scientists and medical experts saying they do work, and have produced identifiable results.

So what I say is that if the vast bulk of epidemiologists and public health experts aren't convinced by or entertaining this alternate opinion out there then why should I? Why should anyone posting here, unless they have a secret double life as an epidemiologist? Why do some without any authority to tell scientists they're wrong continue to do it? It has a psychological basis.


Conspiracy theorists have freed themselves from the lies of The Establishment, the Deep State, the Mainstream “Fake-News” Media. They, and their robust group of like-minded science-deniers, are the only ones who know the real truth. They know something — a lot of things, actually — that the rest of us don’t. They laugh at what fools we are for falling prey to obvious political agendas of scientists who are, after all, notorious for making baseless claims, duh. Everyone who does not share their ideas is a gullible idiot.

There is nothing to be done to dissuade these self-professed experts of their rightness. The fact that scientists live and work by a code that requires them to revise their hypotheses when new data is presented only confirms their belief. Scientists are sometimes wrong, but they, the conspiracy theorists, have always been right. And every new news article, every new study, every new expert opinion, only serves as further evidence that the world is against them.

dr dre 16th Jan 2021 08:16


Originally Posted by Paragraph377 (Post 10968881)
Mr Dre, why don’t you come out and support the WHO’s October 2020 statement that lockdowns shouldn’t be the only option adopted?

It was more one statement from a WHO doctor than an official WHO position but his words were taken out of context and misrepresented, in fact his position is pretty much grounded in scientific consensus.

WHO is right: lockdowns should be short and sharp. Here are 4 other essential COVID-19 strategies

No, the WHO Didn’t Change Its Lockdown Stance or ‘Admit’ Trump Was Right

My biggest concern is with the "this virus is no worse than the flu, let's just get back to how things were before ASAP" types though.



Paragraph377 16th Jan 2021 08:38


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10968887)
My biggest concern is with the "this virus is no worse than the flu, let's just get back to how things were before ASAP" types though.

Well don’t concern yourself too much as Jeanette Young, Palasczuk, Danny Andrews et al have us all in their safe grasp. Perhaps you can offer them some of your expert experience in COVID matters Dre? With the amount of COVID knowledge and insight you are endlessly posting here that would be a better use of your time. I think the majority of pilots on here are interested in flying again ASAP rather than wanting to hide in a basement with a paper mask on.

Incidentally, my biggest concern is with the “we are happy to see additional millions of people unemployed and our Nations bUsinesses folding and our country being saddled with an extra 30 years worth of debt for future generations” types.

dr dre 16th Jan 2021 09:01

Well paragraph377 we would want similar things. For the most part the road map is clear on the way out. If can remote quarantine or do the best to prevent outbreaks from hotels (some states are doing this) and then we run a successful immunisation program that gets the required level of herd immunity soon we could be on the way to seeing the most risky parts of this pandemic over in 6 months and the disruptions to the industry mostly gone by year's end.

Paragraph377 16th Jan 2021 09:18


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10968912)
Well paragraph377 we would want similar things. For the most part the road map is clear on the way out. If can remote quarantine or do the best to prevent outbreaks from hotels (some states are doing this) and then we run a successful immunisation program that gets the required level of herd immunity soon we could be on the way to seeing the most risky parts of this pandemic over in 6 months and the disruptions to the industry mostly gone by year's end.

Now you’re talking! Agree

Kickstarter 16th Jan 2021 09:26

according to Australia lamb corp we'll be locked up with Berlin like walls til 2031.

Search Australia day lamb advert on you tube. Watch the long version that goes for 2 min 30.

I doubt we'll be locked up much longer, or we'll have civil war/coup d'etat

Luckily it's insanely easy to get a very powerful gun.

.

thisishardtochoose 16th Jan 2021 09:33


Originally Posted by Paragraph377 (Post 10968899)
Well don’t concern yourself too much as Jeanette Young, Palasczuk, Danny Andrews et al have us all in their safe grasp.

You missed your Liberal mates in SA and Tassie, both of whom did fast lockdowns. SA being somewhat of a very big overreaction too.

Quite literally the only premier in Aus that seems to be against this approach is Morrisons lapdop in NSW

Ragnor 16th Jan 2021 21:20

I bet Danny A is regretting the tennis now. They’re testing positive left right and centre also complaining about the hotel food and conditions this will be interesting 14 days.

Green.Dot 16th Jan 2021 21:45

Cry me a river tennis players. People have busted their gut to make this tournament happen for you to give YOU an income. Get on the next plane out of town if you can’t handle 14 days in a hotel which 99.9% of returned travellers have to endure.

Pfft 2 weeks tennis uncurrent. Try 12 months not flying an aeroplane.

WingNut60 16th Jan 2021 23:08


Originally Posted by Paragraph377 (Post 10968899)
Incidentally, my biggest concern is with the “we are happy to see additional millions of people unemployed and our Nations bUsinesses folding and our country being saddled with an extra 30 years worth of debt for future generations” types.

Western Australian unemployment rate is sitting at 6.0%, almost exactly where it was at the end of 2019.
Western Australian business confidence has been reported at a 13 year high.
The Western Australian government has declared a $2.2 billion dollar surplus for Y2020.
You can't get a booking at any of our tourist areas - they're fully booked.

WA is not experiencing "additional millions of people unemployed". Nor are our states businesses folding.
And the rate at which the state is being saddled with debt remains largely unchanged.
As for federal debt, better to have a chat with ScoMo.

The single biggest current threat to that position is for some virulent, shit-brained expeditioner to fly in and head straight to a night out at six of our (open, and unrestricted) night-spots.

Now tell me again, what is McGowan supposed to be doing wrong?

currawong 16th Jan 2021 23:44


Originally Posted by Joker89 (Post 10968839)
Dre, you seem to live in a fantasy land where everything the government says (and supported by their paid “expert” lap dogs) is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

there are as many studies in support of and against lockdowns. There is no consensus.

what is clear is this is a political wet dream and these chief medical officers are basking in their glory of being important rule makers for the only time in their lives. They don’t want this to end.

:}

No mate. I would say they are busting for it to end.

Have you ever, ever seen a public servant happy about doing extra work?

Neither have I.

dr dre 17th Jan 2021 00:39


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10969414)
Now tell me again, what is McGowan supposed to be doing wrong?

He’s a member of a left wing party who is very popular and almost certain to be re-elected and the amount of pilots who consume nothing but right wing media is significant. That right wing media pretty much tells them to hate any Labor leader without question.

There’s a thought that if he dropped all border restrictions then domestic travel would pretty much automatically return to pre pandemic levels. This is despite every other part of the world that has not restricted travel has seen a massive drop off in demand while the virus is spreading throughout that country. For instance, with the exception of the remotely located Hawaii, not for one moment have any of the other 49 US states enacted borders, yet 100,000 US aviation jobs have been lost this year. The only way things get back to normal is with the ending of this pandemic, not quickie openings of borders.

bekolblockage 17th Jan 2021 01:00


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10969447)
He’s a member of a left wing party who is very popular and almost certain to be re-elected and the amount of pilots who consume nothing but right wing media is significant. That right wing media pretty much tells them to hate any Labor leader without question.

There’s a thought that if he dropped all border restrictions then domestic travel would pretty much automatically return to pre pandemic levels. This is despite every other part of the world that has not restricted travel has seen a massive drop off in demand while the virus is spreading throughout that country. For instance, with the exception of the remotely located Hawaii, not for one moment have any of the other 49 US states enacted borders, yet 100,000 US aviation jobs have been lost this year. The only way things get back to normal is with the ending of this pandemic, not quickie openings of borders.

Of those 100,000 , how many would you say were related to the International sector of their operations?? My impression was that domestic was still humming along at a moderate pace.




WingNut60 17th Jan 2021 01:18

In "normal" times, what percentage of Australian domestic passenger travel does east-west travel constitute?
If it's more than 15% I'd be very surprised.

My prediction? When normalcy resumes, it will NOT return as it was pre-Covid. At least, not for that east-west travel.
Once the initial rush of repatriation and family re-unions has run its race it might settle down to about 70% of previous, if you're lucky.
Business has learned very well that a lot of the inter-state business travel can be accommodated very efficiently and cheaply with video-conferencing.
Mining companies have already announced their displeasure at reliance on inter-state FiFo.
And without businesses paying for PER-MEL-SYD_BNE jaunts the price of economy flights is sure to go up.

And AJ is sure to want another look at the viability of the connector onto the mid-night horror Perth-London.

dr dre 17th Jan 2021 01:22


Originally Posted by bekolblockage (Post 10969454)
Of those 100,000 , how many would you say were related to the International sector of their operations?? My impression was that domestic was still humming along at a moderate pace.

If you call a 50% cut humming along. Most US flying is domestic, and carriers like Southwest that operate almost exclusively domestic are still cutting sectors by 40%. Low demand is the cause.

American Airlines Cuts November Schedule by Nearly Half ‘to Match Low Demand’


currawong 17th Jan 2021 01:24


Originally Posted by bekolblockage (Post 10969454)
Of those 100,000 , how many would you say were related to the International sector of their operations?? My impression was that domestic was still humming along at a moderate pace.

Does not really answer the question but does give some indication -

https://www.tsa.gov/coronavirus/passenger-throughput

dr dre 17th Jan 2021 01:25


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10969462)
And AJ is sure to want another look at the viability of the connector onto the mid-night horror Perth-London.

Most indications were that before the last series of outbreaks domestic travel, including east west, was looking at a return to similar numbers as pre pandemic.

But all indications are PER-LHR will be one of the first international routes to return because it is one of the best money spinners, a monopoly atm. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if more direct routes are added, these flights are actually quite popular.

Green.Dot 17th Jan 2021 01:27

It might be 50% of the normal flight schedule, but in terms of pax carried I reckon it’s sitting at around 25-30% of the pre COVID levels. Will be interesting to see the official stats if they release them.

Clare Prop 17th Jan 2021 05:42


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10969414)
Western Australian unemployment rate is sitting at 6.0%, almost exactly where it was at the end of 2019.
Western Australian business confidence has been reported at a 13 year high.
The Western Australian government has declared a $2.2 billion dollar surplus for Y2020.
You can't get a booking at any of our tourist areas - they're fully booked.

WA is not experiencing "additional millions of people unemployed". Nor are our states businesses folding.
And the rate at which the state is being saddled with debt remains largely unchanged.
As for federal debt, better to have a chat with ScoMo.

The single biggest current threat to that position is for some virulent, shit-brained expeditioner to fly in and head straight to a night out at six of our (open, and unrestricted) night-spots.

Now tell me again, what is McGowan supposed to be doing wrong?

Hear hear! WA is doing very nicely, don't forget we've also had to deal with cruise ships and other vessels with infected people on board. I wasn't a huge fan of McGowan before all this (mainly due to the Barry Urban debacle) but he has shown, like some other premiers, that consistancyin leadership is what is needed. Others and their flip flopping around and trying to shift the blame around hasn't done any good in their states has actually killed rather a lot of people.

All my friends in the tourism industry have said they are busier than ever, booked up months ahead and having trouble getting staff to keep up with the demand. Sandgropers are realising that they live in the best place in the world and wanting to explore it more, especially after intrastate borders were lifted. Shopkeepers unable to get stock in fast enough to keep up with demand.

As for flying, my aviation business is busier than ever.

Dannyboy39 17th Jan 2021 06:17


Originally Posted by Kickstarter (Post 10968929)
according to Australia lamb corp we'll be locked up with Berlin like walls til 2031.

Search Australia day lamb advert on you tube. Watch the long version that goes for 2 min 30.

I doubt we'll be locked up much longer, or we'll have civil war/coup d'etat

Luckily it's insanely easy to get a very powerful gun.

.https://youtu.be/7g0kCnnTeMg

Who knew that Aussies had a sense of humour!? ;-)

ScepticalOptomist 17th Jan 2021 08:20


Originally Posted by Clare Prop (Post 10969533)
Hear hear! WA is doing very nicely, don't forget we've also had to deal with cruise ships and other vessels with infected people on board. I wasn't a huge fan of McGowan before all this (mainly due to the Barry Urban debacle) but he has shown, like some other premiers, that consistancyin leadership is what is needed. Others and their flip flopping around and trying to shift the blame around hasn't done any good in their states has actually killed rather a lot of people.

All my friends in the tourism industry have said they are busier than ever, booked up months ahead and having trouble getting staff to keep up with the demand. Sandgropers are realising that they live in the best place in the world and wanting to explore it more, especially after intrastate borders were lifted. Shopkeepers unable to get stock in fast enough to keep up with demand.

As for flying, my aviation business is busier than ever.

Its this sort of parochial BS that’s killing the “Australian Spirit”. Our forefathers would be ashamed.


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