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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

dr dre 29th Oct 2021 00:40


Originally Posted by AceMT (Post 11133762)
The USA is bad right now. I can tell you it is nowhere near as bad as Australia and NZ. We have relinquished some freedoms here, but down under you people are lost. You will NEVER get back the freedoms you have given away so easily. I have traveled to almost 100 countries and previously loved both A & NZ, but I wouldn't go back now if you gave me a free first class ticket.

Oh wait, you wouldn't let me in anyway since I haven't taken the mandatory poison...

Oh well I guess 750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off.

Could you list the “freedoms” Australia supposedly has given away? From your statement you seem to be in the US and relying on American media for your view of Australia, perhaps you watched Tucker Carlson’s show to form your view.

If you’re talking about vaccines for entry a non US citizen needs proof of vaccination to enter the US as well you know.

neville_nobody 29th Oct 2021 01:06


Could you list the “freedoms” Australia supposedly has given away? From your statement you seem to be in the US and relying on American media for your view of Australia, perhaps you watched Tucker Carlson’s show to form your view.
Well lets start with the freedom of movement within your own country without restriction or prejudice. Then let's look at the powers that Daniel Andrews wants passed in Victoria. When are these "emergency powers" going to end around the country? What is the trigger to even end them? Even the most lefty American would be horrified by what is going on here, it's a joke.

Lead Balloon 29th Oct 2021 01:24

...And the freedom of an Australian citizen to return to his or her own country.

aviation_enthus 29th Oct 2021 02:22


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 11133766)
If you’re talking about vaccines for entry a non US citizen needs proof of vaccination to enter the US as well you know.

Ahhhh no. This is NOT a requirement to enter the USA. Any arrival over 2 years old MUST have a negative PCR test and sign a form to state they have done a test or had COVID in the last 3 months.

No requirement to be vaccinated (even as non-citizen).

However the CDC “recommends” if you are unvaccinated, you isolate and get another test after arrival.

Unlike Australia, “recommend” is not enforced, I’ve travelled to the USA twice this year with family, we were never asked about our vaccination status.




Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11133784)
...And the freedom of an Australian citizen to return to his or her own country.

Hear, hear!!!

“oh but you were always allowed to return”…..

If you were travelling for business (company pays) or you were a single traveller, yes. But if you didn’t have the cash, forget it ($50,000+ for a family).

Is that the “egalitarian” country we all thought we lived in???

Cloudee 29th Oct 2021 03:09


Originally Posted by aviation_enthus (Post 11133795)
Ahhhh no. This is NOT a requirement to enter the USA. Any arrival over 2 years old MUST have a negative PCR test and sign a form to state they have done a test or had COVID in the last 3 months.

No requirement to be vaccinated (even as non-citizen).

However the CDC “recommends” if you are unvaccinated, you isolate and get another test after arrival.

Unlike Australia, “recommend” is not enforced, I’ve travelled to the USA twice this year with family, we were never asked about our vaccination status.

Well next time you go the USA as a non citizen you will have to show proof of vaccination (rules commencing 8th November 21. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ir-travel.html

What You Need to Know
  • You must be fully vaccinated to travel to the United States by plane if you are a non-U.S. citizen, non-U.S. immigrant (not a U.S. citizen, U.S. national, lawful permanent resident, or traveling to the United States on an immigrant visa). Only limited exceptions apply.
  • You are required to show a negative COVID-19 test result or documentation of recovery from COVID-19 when you travel to the United States by air. The timing of this test depends on your vaccination status and age.
  • Wearing a mask over your nose and mouth is required in indoor areas of public transportation (including airplanes) traveling into, within, or out of the United States and indoors in U.S. transportation hubs (including airports).

Cloudee 29th Oct 2021 03:24


Originally Posted by 601 (Post 11133492)
How did Dan overrule the PM?
One controls the State borders the other controls the International borders.
Your statement would have credence if Dan overruled the decision on the international borders.

Yeah you’re right, but Scotty said Novak could come ( presumably to play tennis at the AO ) but Dan won’t let him play on his court. As far as Novak is concerned it’s an overrule.

dr dre 29th Oct 2021 04:05


Originally Posted by aviation_enthus (Post 11133795)
Ahhhh no. This is NOT a requirement to enter the USA. Any arrival over 2 years old MUST have a negative PCR test and sign a form to state they have done a test or had COVID in the last 3 months.

No requirement to be vaccinated (even as non-citizen).

However the CDC “recommends” if you are unvaccinated, you isolate and get another test after arrival.

Unlike Australia, “recommend” is not enforced, I’ve travelled to the USA twice this year with family, we were never asked about our vaccination status.

That changed a few days ago, all non citizens arriving by air require proof of vaccination with only a few exemptions:

Requirement for Proof of COVID-19 Vaccination for Air Passengers Required for non-U.S. citizen, nonimmigrant passengers arriving from a foreign country to the United States by air

There’s restrictions on Australian citizens movement for now but they will be largely over by early next year. The previous posts were indicating a permanent long term loss of freedoms compared to the US, I’m just enquiring what those freedoms are that have been permanently lost?

aviation_enthus 29th Oct 2021 05:33


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 11133813)
That changed a few days ago, all non citizens arriving by air require proof of vaccination with only a few exemptions:

Requirement for Proof of COVID-19 Vaccination for Air Passengers Required for non-U.S. citizen, nonimmigrant passengers arriving from a foreign country to the United States by air

There’s restrictions on Australian citizens movement for now but they will be largely over by early next year. The previous posts were indicating a permanent long term loss of freedoms compared to the US, I’m just enquiring what those freedoms are that have been permanently lost?


Fair enough. Obviously things are changing there as well.

Just shows how frustrating travel is at the moment with all the changing requirements.

ScepticalOptomist 29th Oct 2021 23:22


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 11133766)
Oh well I guess 750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off.

For perspective 750,000 sounds like a lot, and it is.

As a percentage of the US population - 0.24% have died with CV.

Everyone holding the US model as disastrous fails to see that 99.75% of the population didn’t die with CV.

But let’s keep peddling the fear and outrage at any loss of life, conveniently ignoring everything else that’s killing us and will continue to kill us long after CV is just another one of the many endemic diseases amongst us.

43Inches 30th Oct 2021 00:17

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....9534164dd8.png

There's the actual US stats on 2020, 2021 will have higher proportion of COVID deaths as it will have a full year of full infection. It's quite clear that the overall death rate jumped some 10% or more over trend, meaning sadly for the skeptics out there they didn't just blame Coivid for other things. We also have to remember this is living with compensation for the disease including lockdowns, social distancing mask wearing. If it was left to spread like flu it would be significantly higher, NYC locked down pretty hard to stop the spread there as with other major cities affected. So being 3rd (10%) on the list of nasty things to die from in a year is nothing to sneeze at, especially when your target is doing things to stop you.

PS also have to remember that if they cure CVD, Cancer and Alzheimer, humans will be well on the way to living forever baring intervention from accidents and intentional harm. So Covid tops the list of external things trying to kill you.

Things that are vulnerable to Covid infection such as Heart disease and Diabetes also jumped in 2020, indicating maybe some were possibly Covid related as well.

BTW I see a worrying trend of Alzheimer deaths increasing in the US, hopefully they can find a cure or good treatment for that soon.

AceMT 30th Oct 2021 01:13


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 11133766)
Oh well I guess 750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off.

Could you list the “freedoms” Australia supposedly has given away? From your statement you seem to be in the US and relying on American media for your view of Australia, perhaps you watched Tucker Carlson’s show to form your view.

If you’re talking about vaccines for entry a non US citizen needs proof of vaccination to enter the US as well you know.

You're not even worth discussing facts with. You have been blinded by fear and liberalism. If you haven't watched the videos where people are being arrested for not wearing a MASK and think that is ok, then I have nothing more to say to you. "750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off." You may want to do a little more research before you embarrass yourself. I watch ALL the media. The fake media AND the fact media. I am intelligent enough to discern which is real, you obviously are not and would rather be spoon fed the narrative that fits your agenda. Sheep!

Just to be clear, I have been exposed to Covid multiple times. I am NOT afraid of the flu. If you are get the jab, however, do not tell me what to put in my body, especially after the lecture about "my body my choice" regarding abortion after all these years.

PS I love Tucker. That has not always been so. However, he is one of the few mainstream media geeks standing up for true freedom. You have already acquiesced yours

SOPS 30th Oct 2021 01:52


Originally Posted by AceMT (Post 11134266)
You're not even worth discussing facts with. You have been blinded by fear and liberalism. If you haven't watched the videos where people are being arrested for not wearing a MASK and think that is ok, then I have nothing more to say to you. "750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off." You may want to do a little more research before you embarrass yourself. I watch ALL the media. The fake media AND the fact media. I am intelligent enough to discern which is real, you obviously are not and would rather be spoon fed the narrative that fits your agenda. Sheep!

Just to be clear, I have been exposed to Covid multiple times. I am NOT afraid of the flu. If you are get the jab, however, do not tell me what to put in my body, especially after the lecture about "my body my choice" regarding abortion after all these years.

PS I love Tucker. That has not always been so. However, he is one of the few mainstream media geeks standing up for true freedom. You have already acquiesced yours


Oh dear. Another one who knows the ‘truth’ and thinks Covid is just the flu. I thing you will find most people who are on the front line, treating people with Covid, will assure you it’s not. However, you are free to believe what ever truth you choose.

Ladloy 30th Oct 2021 07:03


Originally Posted by AceMT (Post 11134266)
You're not even worth discussing facts with. You have been blinded by fear and liberalism. If you haven't watched the videos where people are being arrested for not wearing a MASK and think that is ok, then I have nothing more to say to you. "750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off." You may want to do a little more research before you embarrass yourself. I watch ALL the media. The fake media AND the fact media. I am intelligent enough to discern which is real, you obviously are not and would rather be spoon fed the narrative that fits your agenda. Sheep!

Just to be clear, I have been exposed to Covid multiple times. I am NOT afraid of the flu. If you are get the jab, however, do not tell me what to put in my body, especially after the lecture about "my body my choice" regarding abortion after all these years.

PS I love Tucker. That has not always been so. However, he is one of the few mainstream media geeks standing up for true freedom. You have already acquiesced yours

This has to be satire.

aviation_enthus 30th Oct 2021 08:11


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11134259)
There's the actual US stats on 2020, 2021 will have higher proportion of COVID deaths as it will have a full year of full infection.

But will it really? Given the widespread availability of the vaccine in the USA from at least mid-year, I’d argue the deaths will be similar. Total deaths is upto 750,000, so that would mean around 400,000 this year (yes it’s not over yet). Hardly a dramatic increase.


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11134259)
Things that are vulnerable to Covid infection such as Heart disease and Diabetes also jumped in 2020, indicating maybe some were possibly Covid related as well.

Heart disease was already on the rise every year displayed in your statistics. Diabetes as well. That’s probably got more to do with the rise in obese Americans than Covid!!


43Inches 30th Oct 2021 11:05


But will it really? Given the widespread availability of the vaccine in the USA from at least mid-year, I’d argue the deaths will be similar. Total deaths is upto 750,000, so that would mean around 400,000 this year (yes it’s not over yet). Hardly a dramatic increase.
Never said it was going to be a dramatic increase, however that being said it will be about 20% higher than 2020, depends whether you think that a 20% increase is a similar number, large increase or whatever.


Heart disease was already on the rise every year displayed in your statistics. Diabetes as well. That’s probably got more to do with the rise in obese Americans than Covid!!
Trend is what you look for, the numbers will increase because the population in increasing. But, when you see CVD rising by 30,000 deaths in 4 years (average of less than 8,000 a year) and then jump 30,000 deaths in 1 year, that's above trend and usually indicates some additional factor. Diabetes follows a similar path, about 4500 a year trend then suddenly a 13,000 jump in 2020. This is all pre-Vaccine so no hand of those in additional deaths either.

As far as Obesity increase, that horse bolted probably back in the 80s for the US, as a trend % of population it would be statistically neutral or maybe slightly on the improve as of late. Like Covid tallies, most of those CVD and cancer deaths would be in the old aged as well, like I said if you could completely cure those you would be seeing humans live forever.

AceMT 30th Oct 2021 21:06


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11134272)
Oh dear. Another one who knows the ‘truth’ and thinks Covid is just the flu. I thing you will find most people who are on the front line, treating people with Covid, will assure you it’s not. However, you are free to believe what ever truth you choose.

Gee, thanks for allowing me to think freely. I assure you in the future ,at the rate we are going, that will NOT be the case as many of you are giving away freedoms too easily.

As for your stupid comment about front line folk thinking differently, I know many, and a lot of them echo what I am saying. Do you actually know any or are you just regurgitating the medias line? My niece is a nurse and she refuses to take the jab after what she has seen. If you have no comorbidity, it isn't much worse than the flu at all. If you are obese, have diabetes, etc, then your risk is obviously higher.

Good luck out there socialists....

turbantime 30th Oct 2021 21:33


Originally Posted by AceMT (Post 11134677)
As for your stupid comment about front line folk thinking differently, I know many, and a lot of them echo what I am saying.

No they’re not. Depending on the state, statistically 97-99% of health workers have got the jab. Every single doctor/nurse/allied health professional I know has got the jab. There is a pragmatic world outside of your echo chamber.

43Inches 30th Oct 2021 22:16


Good luck out there socialists....
And you do know that the opposite of a mandated socialist health policy is not capitalism, as that is an economic model, but is being a Libertarian, which is still a leftist Marxist philosophy and can be considered part of a communist agenda, therefore still socialism. Libertarian means you are against mass social controls and structured authority choosing for you, rather each individual can choose their own path without government or corporate interference (oops who would've thunk socialism is so complicated). Right wing libertarianism is focused on property, and taxes between entities being free of interference and cost, not health related.

So before you call out others with political slogans, make sure you know what you actually stand for. As you might just be on the same side of the fence in reality of what you are calling out.

neville_nobody 31st Oct 2021 22:48


And you do know that the opposite of a mandated socialist health policy is not capitalism, as that is an economic model, but is being a Libertarian, which is still a leftist Marxist philosophy and can be considered part of a communist agenda, therefore still socialism.
I suggest you brush up on your definitions as Marxism, socialism, and Libertinism are not what you are describing here. The opposite to a socialist style health system is user pays, either out of your own pocket or the insurance company's.

Meanwhile I read that the lunacy of Australian State Borders is continuing where you can now fly half way around the world but not within your own country. This then begs the question of how legal the state border restrictions have become. Are we going to start following the constitution or are we now 7 independent countries?

43Inches 31st Oct 2021 23:45


I suggest you brush up on your definitions as Marxism, socialism, and Libertinism are not what you are describing here. The opposite to a socialist style health system is user pays, either out of your own pocket or the insurance company's.
You are talking economic policy not health policy. A "Health System" is a socialist policy, same as shared fire services and police forces. If the user pays for each use then that is Capitalism as a method of paying for the system, the user may not get a choice of options, but is left to pay for it by themselves at whatever cost may be. A socialist community could have a pay as you use system, the difference being its run by the community and not by state or corporation. If you have communal systems such as health and you demand a choice of opting in or out and are free to do so that is Libertarian. If the system demands you participate with no choice then that is Totalitarian and on into Fascism.

Communism is a socialist ideology so expands on socialism into more structured government, they are not one and the same thing.

So in short Socialism is a ideal of communal run services, you can run those services as opt in or out or have a number of choices for the same service. Libertarians (left wing) will demand all services and rules are optional to pay and participate in, Fascism (right wing) authority will command the opposite that the state dictates whats good for you and how you pay for it.

Capitalism is a system of economics, where the economy is allowed complete freedom to operate, which in turn means survival of the fittest. In pure capitalism there are no rules just trade and the economy sets the price for goods, until of course you get monopolies and services no one wants to do. Then you need government intervention to modify the economy to make the whole system work. Socialism and Capitalism are not directly relatable but do interfere with each other in various ways, there's no such thing as a Socialist/Capitalist slider that you can move either way in government like they make out.


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