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Capn Rex Havoc 17th Aug 2021 02:33

SHVC

unvaccinated stay home locked away for a change
Why on earth would you say that? Why would the unvaccinated have to stay home locked away? If an unvaccinated person wants to go out into the community, he/she has the right to so, and uses his/her own risk management/protection protocols.



Lead Balloon 17th Aug 2021 02:59

Yaaabut...

When the unvaccinated end up clogging up all the nation's ICUs, despite the 'risk management/protection protocols' used by the unvaccinated while roaming free, the outcome is that there's no room left for the vaccinated when they have their heart attacks, serious accidents and other medical crises.

Chronic Snoozer 17th Aug 2021 03:09


Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc (Post 11096374)
SHVC

Why on earth would you say that? Why would the unvaccinated have to stay home locked away? If an unvaccinated person wants to go out into the community, he/she has the right to so, and uses his/her own risk management/protection protocols.

Because we don't want to watch hospital bed confessions from you when you feel it's important that others learn from your experience, that you 'regret' not getting vaccinated and making all those anti-vaccination posts. It's like running into a burning building without suitable firefighting PPE and then complaining of 3rd degree burns.

Foxxster 17th Aug 2021 03:19


Originally Posted by Xeptu (Post 11096360)
My best guess! Most of us expect to be vaccinated and at least 80% of us in the first quarter of 2022, that's both doses and time to be deemed effectively protected. I would expect masks and whatever safety procedures to be in place by then. I would expect to see domestic travel to rise progressively to around 60% of precovid capacity and International up to around 40% by end 2023. All that assuming there is no breakout strain that renders the vaccine ineffective and the long term implications of the virus do not effect life expectancy, reproduction or any significant disability. Should any of those things become apparent, vaccinated or not, then I would expect the borders to remain restricted both internally and externally in some significant way.


I will certainly not be flying anywhere, internationally or domestically while the threat of a lockdown is in place. A lockdown that can take place at any time and go on for an indefinite period. Same for border closures. I will also not be booking any theatre or other tickets or be booking any hotels within a driving distance. And I suspect many will be in the same mindset.

so good luck with your 60% prediction.

Xeptu 17th Aug 2021 03:23


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11096380)
Yaaabut...

When the unvaccinated end up clogging up all the nation's ICUs, despite the 'risk management/protection protocols' used by the unvaccinated while roaming free, the outcome is that there's no room left for the vaccinated when they have their heart attacks, serious accidents and other medical crises.

About the ICU. I can only make comment for what I know within my own state via those I know in that arena. The covid ICU zone is empty at the this time and is a separated facility from the primary ICU ward. It can cope with about 20 ventilated Covid patients comfortably and can be expanded to 50. In the event a major breakout occurs a separate inflatable facility is erected, usually in a carpark, oval, warehouse or stadium. These are normally managed by the military. All covid patients are then redirected to that facility and the major hospitals provide technical staff. Our state has 3 of them and can accomadate about 200 each. We don't have sufficient staff to care for that many, we would need both military and the other states to assist in the same way we did for Victoria.
On that note, NSW doesn't appear to have learned any of the lessons in VIC, including PPE as observed in the news. The common quote is " what on earth have they been doing in the last 12 months, have they learned nothing"

Paragraph377 17th Aug 2021 03:33


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11096380)
Yaaabut...

When the unvaccinated end up clogging up all the nation's ICUs, despite the 'risk management/protection protocols' used by the unvaccinated while roaming free, the outcome is that there's no room left for the vaccinated when they have their heart attacks, serious accidents and other medical crises.

But but our hospital systems can cope with a huge outbreak because all state governments have planned for such an emergency, have enough beds in their hospitals to cover such an emergency and have enough medical staff on the payroll to adequately handle such an emergency. It has to be true because from their protected and overstaffed premium office suites our PM and Premiers have told us so. They really have their finger on the pulse so to speak.






Xeptu 17th Aug 2021 03:35


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11096385)
I will certainly not be flying anywhere, internationally or domestically while the threat of a lockdown is in place. A lockdown that can take place at any time and go on for an indefinite period. Same for border closures. I will also not be booking any theatre or other tickets or be booking any hotels within a driving distance. And I suspect many will be in the same mindset.

so good luck with your 60% prediction.

It's an expectation, not a prediction and it has caveats, but like you I'm not all that confident that those caveats won't come into effect.

Capn Rex Havoc 17th Aug 2021 03:39


Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer (Post 11096383)
Because we don't want to watch hospital bed confessions from you when you feel it's important that others learn from your experience, that you 'regret' not getting vaccinated and making all those anti-vaccination posts. It's like running into a burning building without suitable firefighting PPE and then complaining of 3rd degree burns.

Chronic Snoozer - TSK TSK TSK - I have NEVER made a single anti Vaccination post. I am, in fact, vaccinated, and currently still flying. I am defending the right of people to CHOOSE. The reality is, the vaccine was developed under emergency provisions and the long time side effects have not been tested. I respect people's choice to take it or not. Delta is more infectious and it will infect vaccinated people as well. I also find it pretty immoral to suggest that medical assistance should be provided in preference for vaccinated people. We know that smoking causes lung cancer- I guess if there is only 1 ventilator avail - you would say that the non smoker should get it. People here are losing the plot.


Lead Balloon 17th Aug 2021 03:45


Originally Posted by Paragraph377 (Post 11096390)
But but our hospital systems can cope with a huge outbreak because all state governments have planned for such an emergency, have enough beds in their hospitals to cover such an emergency and have enough medical staff on the payroll to adequately handle such an emergency. It has to be true because from their protected and overstaffed premium office suites our PM and Premiers have told us so. They really have their finger on the pulse so to speak.

Yep, and Scotty's doubled the capacity of proper quarantine facilities and adjacent medical facilities, to take the pressure off the general hospitals.

And all those new doctors and ICU nurses will be cascading out of our local training institutions, soon.

43Inches 17th Aug 2021 04:14

I never quite know why they group influenza and pneumonia together. One is a condition and one is a cause. I think the pneumonia from causes other than flu is about 75% of those cases, actual flu as an underlying cause is the much smaller of the two. Then people go on and quote that group as flu deaths when they are not.

De_flieger 17th Aug 2021 04:16


Originally Posted by Blackout (Post 11096395)

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to show there. Looking at those statistics, with the fairly harsh restrictions and lockdowns that are presently in place, doing substantial economic damage, there is minimal covid transmission in most states, and likewise minimal or zero hospitalisations in those states. Suggesting that purely from a health perspective solely in terms of preventing covid (setting aside the mental health issues and economic costs, which do need to be taken into account in the broader scheme of things) the restrictions and lockdowns are effective. In the states with more covid cases - but still a relatively small proportion of the population - there are more people hospitalised. That's not exactly groundbreaking news.

What do you think of places like Florida, where there are far fewer restrictions and there is much more widespread transmission, measured in the thousands to tens of thousands of cases per day, and at the most recent figures I've seen, approximately 16,000 people hospitalised out of a population roughly 2/3rds that of Australia? Their ICU's are at approx 90% capacity, with roughly 50% of those beds taken up by covid patients, and the capacity is limited by the number of healthcare workers available, not by the number of physical beds or ventilators or equipment present, so it's not a quick process to easily ramp up to deal with large numbers of new patients over any length of time.

43Inches 17th Aug 2021 04:29


Their ICU's are at approx 90% capacity, with roughly 50% of those beds taken up by covid patients, and the capacity is limited by the number of healthcare workers available, not by the number of physical beds or ventilators or equipment present, so it's not a quick process to easily ramp up to deal with large numbers of new patients over any length of time.
A typical Thursday through to Sunday in a city hospital in Australia pre-covid and the ER and ICU would be on bypass due to case numbers. Hospitals are good here, but they only offer just enough for whats budgeted, covid has opened more beds, but staff wise they can't fill them. I know two local hospitals that have whole wings of beds empty with no staff to service them.

43Inches 17th Aug 2021 04:33

This is a better site for data on influenza. It has actual numbers relating to the flu, rather than combining pneumonia with it.

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/...rr.htm#current

Few reasons flu is down during our covid outbreak, is same way we have kept covid down. Most of our flu comes in from overseas. Then add lockdowns, etc.

Paragraph377 17th Aug 2021 04:34


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11096393)
Yep, and Scotty's doubled the capacity of proper quarantine facilities and adjacent medical facilities, to take the pressure off the general hospitals.

And all those new doctors and ICU nurses will be cascading out of our local training institutions, soon.

Most reassuring, thank you. I hope our new medico’s are also trained in how to keep up with governments who are like kangaroos on ICE bouncing all over the top paddock. You can always trust a bureaucracy to be 50 paces behind everybody else.


De_flieger 17th Aug 2021 04:38


Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc (Post 11096374)
SHVC

Why on earth would you say that? Why would the unvaccinated have to stay home locked away? If an unvaccinated person wants to go out into the community, he/she has the right to so, and uses his/her own risk management/protection protocols.

If one person alone makes that decision, it probably won't make any real difference. If any significant number of people all make that same decision, there will be a reservoir of covid circulating among that group being transmitted between themselves and others, mutating as viruses do, into potentially more infectious or harmful forms that are more dangerous or transmissible to the vaccinated - as has already happened with the different variants of covid mutating in India, South America and other places. That puts at risk the vaccinated, the medically unable to be vaccinated or frail, and the unvaccinated alike. So their individual choices impact the broader community. Plenty of people have felt that their own risk management/protection protocols were sufficient, and still died on a ventilator.

43Inches 17th Aug 2021 04:47

For those averse to reading the flu document in 2019 there were 3000 odd hospitalisations due to flu only 246 were admitted to ICU. During the season 812 were listed as having flu symptomology when they died, ie died "with flu". Just under 300,000 were laboratory tested positive for flu that season, you could safely assume 5-10 times more than that got the sniffles from flu that year.

I don't have the time to fully research it but 2020, 28,000 covid cases laboratory confirmed, with seroprevalence putting actual numbers around 3 x that, so around 90,000 cases and 909 deaths. I'm pretty sure hospitalisations and ICU admittance was way higher proportion than the flu.

The difference mainly is that 2019 the flu did what it wanted, in 2020 Covid was mostly controlled by isolation and lockdown. I assume given the flu distribution you would probably see 300,000 symptomatic cases of covid with unrestricted freedom and no vacination in the same year if it was let loose.

Chris2303 17th Aug 2021 05:05

One community case in Auckland this afternoon

josephfeatherweight 17th Aug 2021 05:13


Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc (Post 11096392)
I am defending the right of people to CHOOSE. The reality is, the vaccine was developed under emergency provisions and the long time side effects have not been tested. I respect people's choice to take it or not. Delta is more infectious and it will infect vaccinated people as well. I also find it pretty immoral to suggest that medical assistance should be provided in preference for vaccinated people. We know that smoking causes lung cancer- I guess if there is only 1 ventilator avail - you would say that the non smoker should get it. People here are losing the plot.

I get what you're saying and I'm glad to hear you have made the right choice to get vaccinated. But the time will come when the Australian population has ALL had a really good opportunity to be vaccinated and where my patience will have been exhausted making "allowances" for other people's (IMHO) poor choice. Perhaps when I lose my job. Note, we're not at that point yet, because the vaccine roll-out has been an unmitigated disaster.
If I get vaccinated, I protect the non-vaccinated by reducing the chance of transmission, should I become infected by COVID. By an individual "choosing" to not get vaccinated, they put me at risk. I don't think that's ok.
A summarised/altered quote (wrongly attributed to the French President) goes something like this:
"I no longer have any intention of sacrificing my life, my time, my freedom and the adolescence of my children, as well as their right to study properly, for those who refuse to be vaccinated. This time you stay at home, not us."
I would have no problem prioritising ICU beds for vaccinated citizens (suffering from whatever illness they may have) over non vaccinated citizens (due choice, not medical impediment) afflicted by COVID - they've made their choice.

43Inches 17th Aug 2021 05:18


You didnt think 4124 cases that died due to Influenza / Pneumonia in 2019 was a cause for concern. Is that why you didnt advocate for Hard Border closures, Self Isolation and Vaccine Passports back then?
As I posted above only just under 900 died with flu in that season, that is not even from flu. Pneumonia is a pretty common cause of death for old aged, also being one of the ways covid kills you.

To put in perspective of 300,000 actual diagnosed flu cases only 246 made it to ICU. So the majority (of those that died) were not admitted to hospital with severe flu symptoms like Covid does to you. The rest of the 900 were most likely old aged or compromised and just had flu at the time of death. The difference with Covid is that last year when listed "died with covid" on your death cert Covid was the primary cause in 75% of cases, vs flu which would only account for 100 or so out of that 900 or around 10%. This year I would like to see the stats on "died due to covid" vs "died with covid" as I think most of the vaccine related will be a case of "died with" not "from".

Chronic Snoozer 17th Aug 2021 05:53


Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc (Post 11096392)
Chronic Snoozer - TSK TSK TSK - I have NEVER made a single anti Vaccination post. I am, in fact, vaccinated, and currently still flying. I am defending the right of people to CHOOSE. The reality is, the vaccine was developed under emergency provisions and the long time side effects have not been tested. I respect people's choice to take it or not. Delta is more infectious and it will infect vaccinated people as well. I also find it pretty immoral to suggest that medical assistance should be provided in preference for vaccinated people. We know that smoking causes lung cancer- I guess if there is only 1 ventilator avail - you would say that the non smoker should get it. People here are losing the plot.

Because we don't want to watch hospital bed confessions from the unvaccinated when they feel it's important that others learn from their experience, that they 'regret' not getting vaccinated and making all those anti-vaccination posts. It's like running into a burning building without suitable firefighting PPE and then complaining of 3rd degree burns.

Happy?


Lead Balloon 17th Aug 2021 06:52


I would have no problem prioritising ICU beds for vaccinated citizens (suffering from whatever illness they may have) over non vaccinated citizens (due choice, not medical impediment) afflicted by COVID - they've made their choice.
And what if the non-vaccinated citizen does not have his or her 'Vaccination Passport' or Medicare Card in the pocket of their trackpants when run over at a pedestrian crossing and taken by ambulance, unconscious and critically injured, to an ICU?

If you can quote me an ICU doctor or nurse who's explained how they can practically work out who is voluntarily unvaccinated when presenting to an ICU, please post the link.

And what of children who've just complied with whatever their parents have decided about vaccination?

ruprecht 17th Aug 2021 07:12


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11096441)
And what if the non-vaccinated citizen does not have his or her 'Vaccination Passport' or Medicare Card in the pocket of their trackpants when run over at a pedestrian crossing and taken by ambulance, unconscious and critically injured, to an ICU?

If you can quote me an ICU doctor or nurse who's explained how they can practically work out who is voluntarily unvaccinated when presenting to an ICU, please post the link.

And what of children who've just complied with whatever their parents have decided about vaccination?

Key phrase: “afflicted by COVID”.

josephfeatherweight 17th Aug 2021 07:14

Hmmm. People don't take the time to read posts, do they? They love to get all excited and post back on full-automatic...


And what if the non-vaccinated citizen does not have his or her 'Vaccination Passport' or Medicare Card in the pocket of their trackpants when run over at a pedestrian crossing and taken by ambulance, unconscious and critically injured, to an ICU?
Well, they're not in ICU because of COVID, are they? So of course they deserve a bed. As per my initial post.


If you can quote me an ICU doctor or nurse who's explained how they can practically work out who is voluntarily unvaccinated when presenting to an ICU, please post the link.
When someone is admitted to ICU SUFFERING FROM COVID, they've probably not been vaccinated - there are VERY few people who medically CANNOT be vaccinated. You could ask them or their family? Check out their anti-vaxxer Facebook posts perhaps? Call their GP? Wouldn't be hard to work it out...


And what of children who've just complied with whatever their parents have decided about vaccination?
Good point - I hadn't thought of them - we'll exclude under 18s from the plan. See, with discussion, we're getting somewhere!



43Inches 17th Aug 2021 07:37

It's one thing to maybe disagree or dislike the anti-vax, but you will never get a situation where an ICU medical professional will refuse to treat them, unless it came to a point the virus mutated so much it was a huge danger to them.

The treating doctor might put on a frown or an unhappy, "thank's for wasting our time", but they won't intentionally leave you to die.

Friday night your local hospital will be full of drunks, drug afflicted and the results of both, far more preventable and facility wasting than covid patients, vaxxed or not. At least lockdown has reduced this as well.

Lead Balloon 17th Aug 2021 07:54


When someone is admitted to ICU SUFFERING FROM COVID, it's pretty obvious whether they've been vaccinated or not.
Bollocks.

And due to minimum post length requirements: Complete bollocks.

Lead Balloon 17th Aug 2021 08:32

Errrmmm, if anyone is labouring under the misconception that vaccination is a guarantee that you won't suffer from Covid, best to recalibrate them as best we can. It is an issue directly relevant to when the borders will be opened, which is I think the topic of this thread?

Lookleft 17th Aug 2021 08:46

The whole point of the vaccine is to reduce the severe effects of Covid i.e. death from said virus. It is also claimed to reduce the impact on the lungs and heart. One dose is slightly effective but two doses are better. So the statement about being admitted to ICU is an indication of not being vaccinated should have the word "probably" added to it. Even then its is no indication of how many doses the person has had. LB is correct in that the point of being vaccinated is to allow for society to be able to live with Covid and have the borders opened.

Lead Balloon 17th Aug 2021 08:49

Exactly, LL. Two doses are better, but aren't a 100% guarantee that the double-dosed won't contract and suffer from Covid.

josephfeatherweight 17th Aug 2021 09:17


So the statement about being admitted to ICU is an indication of not being vaccinated should have the word "probably" added to it.
That's a fair point - agreed!

Turnleft080 17th Aug 2021 09:25

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ew-cases-today
The tracker showing 70% by 9 Nov and 80% by 28th Nov. You get that feeling when the dates arrive the premiers and their more powerful CHOs will shift the goal posts again.

minigundiplomat 17th Aug 2021 09:35

I’ve had both doses of the killer AZ to hold off the deadly and lethal Delta with its .5% mortality rate.

However, as easy as that choice was, it’s a CHOICE and I find it a little rich that all the ‘fraidy cats are deciding who should get medical treatment and who shouldn’t.

The vaccine doesn’t make anyone immune to COVID but reduces the severity. If people don’t want to have the jab, and subsequently die, then in my book they’ve made their choice and died in freedom.

But it’s a choice. Just because you’re dropping bricks in you speedos doesn’t give you the right to insist others are vaccinated with serums which are, if not experimental, then fairly new to use.

compressor stall 17th Aug 2021 09:37

Meanwhile in Canada.

"As soon as possible in the Fall and no later than the end of October, the Government of Canada will require employees in the federally regulated air, rail, and marine transportation sectors to be vaccinated. The vaccination requirement will also extend to certain travellers. This includes all commercial air travellers," his office said.

Torukmacto 17th Aug 2021 09:54


Originally Posted by minigundiplomat (Post 11096532)
I’ve had both doses of the killer AZ to hold off the deadly and lethal Delta with its .5% mortality rate.

However, as easy as that choice was, it’s a CHOICE and I find it a little rich that all the ‘fraidy cats are deciding who should get medical treatment and who shouldn’t.

The vaccine doesn’t make anyone immune to COVID but reduces the severity. If people don’t want to have the jab, and subsequently die, then in my book they’ve made their choice and died in freedom.

But it’s a choice. Just because you’re dropping bricks in you speedos doesn’t give you the right to insist others are vaccinated with serums which are, if not experimental, then fairly new to use.

Totally agree ,
Im firmly in the camp that we have to work out a way to live with it . Vaccinations seemed to be logical way but if someone does not want to be vaccinated that’s their right. However if you don’t then you can’t ask to be treated the same . Why should the whole population be locked down , live with curfews , travel restrictions and pay the same for health insurance ? How hard is it to be given a QR code once vaccinated to get access to travel , sports arenas , pubs ?

machtuk 17th Aug 2021 10:17

Class division, who would have thought in this Nation! There's only 2 sides to this BS con job, pick one & live with it without trying to destroy your fellow man & abusing each other but I guess that is the Aussie way!

Chronic Snoozer 17th Aug 2021 10:53


Originally Posted by minigundiplomat (Post 11096532)
But it’s a choice. Just because you’re dropping bricks in you speedos doesn’t give you the right to insist others are vaccinated with serums which are, if not experimental, then fairly new to use.

Vaccinations are a common, run of the mill thing. But if 50 % choose not to vaccinate then we going to have issues. I don't have a problem with choice but it has to be better than just 'I don't want to'. With 4.5 nearly billion vaccines already administered, exactly who is dropping bricks in the speedos again?

Paragraph377 17th Aug 2021 12:09

So many people putting trust in the Prime Minister and Premiers comments that once this magical number of 70 to 80% vaccination is reached, it will be freedom all around! Really? Show me the evidence. Show me the accurate data to prove that this will be the case, that 80% will do the trick. Not 81% and not 89.6% but 80% apparently. Show me the risk modelling factoring in known and latent risks.

Keep in mind that Scotty just shoved a giant pineapple up the ass of the people of Afghanistan by ‘getting the data wrong’ (they didn’t think the Taliban would take Kabul until December) and he has been complicit in throwing millions of people under the bus. Yeah, sure Scott, I believe you in regards to your ‘COVID freedom at 80% vaccinated promise’. The PMC spin machine is churning out promises as fast as the reserve bank is printing off dollar bills!

josephfeatherweight 17th Aug 2021 12:16

I don't believe a word he says either, but 80% has got to be better for everyone than 25%.

Paragraph377 17th Aug 2021 12:41

For those putting trust in our maestros of political BS and their promise of ‘80% vaccinated and its back to normal for Australia’, you may want to watch this clip.


43Inches 17th Aug 2021 12:46

I don't trust any of them, thing is they set a bar, the people are fed up. When that 80% is hit, no one is going to listen to them if they try to keep things locked down, they know that, its already coming apart at the seams in Sydney, Melbourne is not far off.

43Inches 17th Aug 2021 13:05


Why wait until reaching 80%. They have been saying daily lately, that only some freedoms will come back
80% would be the top mark tbh, if things don't start to ease up passing 60% and especially 70% I think disobedience will rapidly increase.


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