My opinion, and I reckon a vast majority of Australians is that once that 80% is reached we have given everyone enough chance to mull the stats, understand whats going on and those left have decided to be that way. I'm quite happy that once vaccinated your chance of dieing of this thing is back to flu levels so even 70% we should be considering normal ops and back to business. If WA is still thinking lockdowns after that, its stupid, and makes no sense, time to call Chopper back from the dead and push that state TF out of here.

You obviously don't have kids, and don't understand the meaning of the word forced. As right now you can't send your kids to many day care without proof of vaccination. There may be those that provide for unvaccinated kids, but that will be your choice. This ain't about if my statement is stupid or not, its reality and how things already are. You want to fly on my plane and have a medical condition, better have a docs certificate or you don't. Just my companies rules. It's very easy to cite safety rules as flying with the flu or any communicable disease is already considered a no go condition.

43In Why can't you see the difference here - IF YOU ARE VACCINATED YOU MAY STILL GET THE FLU OR COVID. Your statement above - if you have flu or any communicable disease is already considered a no go condition - SO DOES THAT MEAN I HAVE TO SHOW YOU A FLU VACCINATION PROOF BEFORE I GET ON YOUR PLANE? Are you getting it yet?

The Constitution Watch article quite specifically deals with 'the subject matter of “Forced Vaccinations”' - it's right there in the title,
'A Summary of section 51(xxiiiA) of the Constitution and related case law surrounding the subject matter of “Forced Vaccinations”'

Returning to your original statement,

How does a somewhat nebulous article that purports to address forced vaccinations relate to a Vaccine Passport?

And thanks for the link to an explanation of the Biosecurity (Human Biosecurity Emergency) (Human Coronavirus with Pandemic Potential) Declaration 2020.

How is that even vaguely germane to the contention that having to disclose your medical history is "against the Australian Constitution"?

80% is still no guarantee there will be no lockdowns and borders closure. Elimination is what’s wanted among the premiers (McGowan confirmed WA position on Sunday) in all states except NSW where Gladys has given up on elimination and going for higher vaccination 50% allowed some restriction eased 60% and so on. NSW residents will not be allowed to leave this state for a considerable amount of time, maybe NSW could set up international travel again when 80% is reached for us only and rest of the country can have their own bubble among them self. I would prefer to spend my money in another country than in QLD anyways.

PM was speaking this morning when asked about McGowen position he had nothing to offer other than going back to Poland’s generosity in giving extra Pfizer.

Totally superfluous. Everyone is home anyway between 9pm-5am with a 5 km radius. Just another I will obey you master moment. Because of the pub crawl and the party in Nth Caulfield 4 million will now be punished.

Strange that of all the things 160,000 of us every day on average around the world are allowed to die of, some premiers have decided this one is not permitted a single 1.

The link is to a bill proposed by Craig Kelly. I'd be somewhat surprised if this was to become law.

Since we are following the maths, science, and models ( all that fantastic public health stuff ) then may I bring in a proportion. If NSW recorded 156,495 tests : 478 positives then that leaves 8,009,505 non-tests : 24,464 possible positives. So mathematically their could be 24,464 positives cases that have not been tested. If true, they may not know they have it. Why? They are all healthy. So why are the hospitals not saturated and all ICU beds maxed out. I state my case your honour. Open the borders now, with masks, sanitiser and most of the elderly are now vaccinated.

Entirely not my decision, that's something you take up with who operates the plane, the airline policy. Not sure what you don't get about that. I've never said I agree with doing any of this, it is how things currently operate and may get worse. As for new work, a company can exclude you because of no HSC certificate, no vaccine is way easier to prove you are at increased threat of lower productivity due to sick leave. You wont even get the chance to argue it, you just wont make it through the application process if you fail to provide a vaccine certificate and its one of the criteria.

Requiring existing workers to vaccinate and maintain vaccination is another matter, SPC Ardmona has already done this, with unanimous support from the workforce apparently. It's pretty easy to push non compliant workers out for other reasons and then mandate all new workers do it. If you've ever worked in low paid work, especially casual you'd know the way they deal with problem workers is just give them reducing hours until they decide to leave for themselves, then just keep the hire cycle going. If you were ever wound down to zero (or close to) hours while others worked more, you should understand they didn't like you for whatever reason and didn't want to bother through the process of officially firing you. Is this all nice and legal, probably not, and that's why there is law suits occasionally, but its rare and they get away with it most times.

Quote:

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Democracy – a casualty of the pandemic

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I have a major issue with the headline. I havn't seen any democratic countries turn to dictatorships during the pandemic yet. The pollies are still doing what they were elected to do and will have to face re-election in the near future.

If the general concensus of the population is that they want vaccine passports and restrict those not vaccinated. That is democracy in action. As a business being able to choose entirely who it serves and who it does not (vaccinated or not) is a pure capitalist ideal, the individual business owner can choose entirely how they operate, that would include basic discrimination. Socialism would force the business to serve the masses, as that would be best for the community.

I think the correct term would be sacrificing basic rights as a casualty of the pandemic.

Well, we'll all know sooner or later. Clive is going to test it in the high court it seems re WA's plans to have the jab to enter.

But isn't Anna doing same? Will he challenge her?

Democracy my ass. Facebook and Google data collection, our current government COVID apps, big brother watching, hidden speed cameras, the introduction of thousands of new laws per year with none of the old ones repealed and the stripping of union powers - these muppets have been stripping our democracy for the past 80 years.

Nothing to do with democracy apart from all those muppets being elected. When people in general realise its not a football match that picking liberal or labor or greens is not a competition, but actually alters the direction of policy, then maybe things will change. When people vote cause, Kennet was too arogant, or Kirner was too fat and female or Abbot seemed to not like women. Then that's the failure of democracy.

Learn to educate yourself in politics, pick the team that favours your own point of view, in reality, not via slogans. And kick the ones that don't perform.

gladys saying as long as we have delta, or presumably any other similar variant, even at 80% vaccinated we will still have restrictions.

hey Gladys. You can F*CK RIGHT OFF WITH THAT. Grow a pair and be a F*CKING leader and an adult. People will die from it. Get used to it. Stop your bull****.

Because they know the plebs just barrack for Labor or Liberal with very little swinging, virtually no political education. Business on the other hand knows exactly how important who's in power is to your bottom line and how they can operate.

You want them to listen to the people, then you need the masses to actually care at an election and swing with the actual policies.

I used to be staunch anti labor, why, hate for what happened in '89. I've gotten over that and realised that the Coalition has done just as much damage in the 90s with privatisation of airports and airservices than the strike cost. I realised the Egos that cost in '89 are gone, but the policies that have driven GA to oblivion are still pursued.

43In -Mate, I'm sorry, it is you that is not getting what I am saying.
Ok I'll try and put it another way.
Forget about covid -
Currently you claim - that with your company - If you have the Flu - you are not permitted to fly. Is that true? I believe it, ie if you present with a fever etc then you may not be permitted to travel. BUT your company, does not, and have never asked, upon check in to show proof that the passenger has had a Flu Vaccination.
DO YOU SEE WHAT I AM SAYING.

Yes I know, what I'm saying is in the future I have no say in what direction they go in. They might require a vaccine passport, nothing I can do about that. France has mandated it for train travel, so the likelihood increases as other similar nations adopt it. How it would be practical or ethical or within human rights, I will have no say in that.

If you sleep with a partner without telling them you are HIV positive, you can be jailed. So yes you can go to bars etc and procure whatever and you must disclose any diseases that could infect them that you are aware of. HIV is only transmitted via blood etc. You can not walk past someone and infect them.

A partner can actually sue you if they can prove you knowingly slept with them knowing you had an STDs. Same way you can be fined or sued for spitting on someone as its known to spread disease of just about anything.

The idea of lockdowns and isolation is to limit the spread opportunity for easily communicable diseases that can transmit easily to unwilling participants.

You are welcome!

Precisely!

As the Vaccine does not stop transmission and the states want COVID Zero , then it cannot happen , people will still get sick and die from Covid , smaller numbers maybe but they cannot achieve what they are after .
Once everyone has the chance to be vaccinated then it’s a personal risk to go without , it’s not going to stop the pandemic.
Please change the thread name to All Borders never to open please !
pS can’t someone get rid of the Dick Smith ads please !

Great comment. I’m really starting to like you old mate. In fact the CASA regulatory reform program commenced in 1988, 1 year prior to the day Australian aviation changed forever in 1989. The ‘program’ was completed I believe ‘last year’ according to bureaucrat Shane Carmody. Half a billion dollars and 32 years later - all done (the ‘success’ of that program is very much debatable) So, if we are to go by the lack of competence displayed by past and present governments, and using aviation as an example, then we may see Mr Morrison and the State government leaders grappling with trying to mitigate COVID for another 32 years, unsuccessfully!!

The Democratic Republic of ShagNasty have just deployed a couple of F35s armed and heading for WA. McGowan rings Scotty I need your help. Sorry mate you have a hard border up I can't do anything. May have given someone a cartoon idea.

Hey 'Rexy' I see you are still alive there?:-) Funny about that!:-)
I wonder how all the Commy Dan lovers are feeling now in Melb with another 2 weeks & curfew? Still feeling the love are we?:-)
The grubby media & corrupt Govt love stats & numbers, it is entertaining I guess whilst I await to die of this dreadful disease that Dan said if I catch it I will die from it:-):-)

See you at the bar Rexy, in say 2025, if we are lucky:-)

People die mate. Everyday, for all sorts of reasons, even non-COVID related reasons.

I’m not sure when we lost sight of that.

For those losing hope and losing their sh!t I thought it’s timely to post another up to date graph of our friends in the UK. Point to note- death rates have stabilised and steady even with significant cases numbers.

If you aren’t willing to get vaccinated, your choice, but you are scum to the rest of society.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8bca84d93.jpeg

Hence Lord's cricket ground full house, plus all the first round of EPL.

Hey Green Dot
There is a real legal difference in the definition of someone, either willing to get a normal proven vaccination or in this case the covid-19 experimental vaccine.
Those that choose not to participate in clinical trials are not scum.

GreenDot- If you are vaccinated why do you care about those who are not?

Because unless "those who are not" account for less than 19.9% of the population, most posters here, probably including yours truly, won't have a job to go back to after Christmas!

Sorta hoping for GreenDot to respond.

But anyhow KR, - The vaccination numbers mean naught - 70% 80% it doesn't matter - Delta will be here and D will kill people. Hey smoking kills way more people yet the "guvmint" hasn't banned all cigarettes.

Without realising you are participating in the clinical trials - as the control group. Lol!

Gold and so true, all those dead unvaxed are in the same clinical trial. Although the trial stopped about 6 months ago and we just like watching the control group suffer for laughs...Oh no one told them that being vaccinated saves ya, oh well.... It's interesting what the unvaxed in the Israeli study thought about it, were they even told they were in a study?

"Hey Carl, thanks for joining our vaccination study, you've been teamed with Bob who's just like you to see who will die a painful, horribly drawn out, gasping for air death first. Don't worry Carl we worked out whos going to die in the trials, being the vaccinated cohort you wont get much more than a sniffle, Bob on the otherhand..... We just have to let a few more die to prove to the others"

Missed the point of your statement?! You couldn't have found the point with a scanning electron microscope because you didn't make a statement, you posted two links that were entirely unrelated to your original contention that the introduction of a vaccine passport was against the Australian Constitution.

Now you've tossed another link at the wall, presumably hoping something will stick. Craig Kelly's private member's bill, no less.

The only references to the Australian Constitution in Kelly's bill are to various sub-sections of s 51, the Section dealing with the Federal Parliament's legislative powers. He references s 51(v) postal, telegraphic, telephonic, and other like services; s 51(xiv) insurance, other than State insurance; also State insurance extending beyond the limits of the State concerned; and s 51 (xx) foreign corporations, and trading or financial corporations formed within the limits of the Commonwealth. Care to join the dots on any of that?

Of course, Craig Kelly being Craig Kelly, in Section 3 Definitions, he ensures that the term 'vaccination' includes hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, and vitamin D and zinc.

If you do want to take exception with actions that are 'against the Australian Constitution', then Section 8 of Kelly's bill should give you grounds for concern. That's the part of the bill where Kelly proposes that the Commonwealth override the States' constitutional right to legislate on health matters.

Separately, there's Section 10, Kelly's swag of prohibitions on businesses and voluntary organisations, including to a bizarre level of specificity a 'chess club or knitting group' (but interestingly not a 'bridge club or sewing group'). That Section would prohibit any business, say a private hospital, and any voluntary organisation, say a cancer care group, from restricting entry to their premises to any person who was not vaccinated. That's not troubling at all?

Smokers have little regard for their own health or those around them who suffer the effects of passive smoking. So I guess your analogy works.

Chronic Snoozer you sure sound like a real snooze. Who cares if people decide to smoke and may enjoy it? They don't set out to intentionally "ruin" their health. In that case, may as well ban alcohol, junk food, unprotected sex.. You sound like you haven't had the pleasures of any of these things anyway.
As for passive smoking, I'm sure people breathe in a lot worse particles in their daily lives than walking by someone smoking a cigarette outdoors.
​​​​

Australia really is out of control, so sad to watch.

For those worried about being tracked through a vaccine passport, do you use an idevice or android? Everything is linked and tracked unless you opt out which is hard. Do you surf the web? Again tracked and you get hit with adds.

We have all said it, yellow fever, etc on the yellow travel card was the norm, if technology had been around back then then it would have been used. The fear mongering is amazing.

The biggest issue is will 70%, 80% unlock the country? Nope. A leader or a change to what is required needs to happen to make all states/territories work together.

Yes get the vaccination numbers up and let it rip, it is simply the only way out of the lockdown madness. Yes compare to the UK, Europe, the USA, living with Covid is the reality. Covid zero is not. The problem we all have is that we are unified by the fact we work in one of the most effected industries.

QLD have announced this morning like WA proof that you have had 1 does of a approved vaccine. If QF can’t make us take it without being held liable for any side affects how can states not be held liable for their hard line vaccination request. I’m happy for this by the way it needs to be like this considering ppl are getting their advice from Facebook and Instagram then believing in that. The vaccine should be made available to everyone by yrs end that so want it. Vaccinated ppl then need to have free rain of travel and movement January 1st 2022 and let the unvaccinated stay home locked away for a change.

My best guess! Most of us expect to be vaccinated and at least 80% of us in the first quarter of 2022, that's both doses and time to be deemed effectively protected. I would expect masks and whatever safety procedures to be in place by then. I would expect to see domestic travel to rise progressively to around 60% of precovid capacity and International up to around 40% by end 2023. All that assuming there is no breakout strain that renders the vaccine ineffective and the long term implications of the virus do not effect life expectancy, reproduction or any significant disability. Should any of those things become apparent, vaccinated or not, then I would expect the borders to remain restricted both internally and externally in some significant way.

SHVC Why on earth would you say that? Why would the unvaccinated have to stay home locked away? If an unvaccinated person wants to go out into the community, he/she has the right to so, and uses his/her own risk management/protection protocols.

Yaaabut...

When the unvaccinated end up clogging up all the nation's ICUs, despite the 'risk management/protection protocols' used by the unvaccinated while roaming free, the outcome is that there's no room left for the vaccinated when they have their heart attacks, serious accidents and other medical crises.