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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

ruprecht 17th Aug 2021 13:32


Originally Posted by Blackout (Post 11096652)
Why wait until reaching 80%. They have been saying daily lately, that only some freedoms will come back

I think people are waiting to give everyone a chance to get vaccinated. That’s only fair given the complete f*ck up of a rollout.

Once we get to that point, all bets are off.

43Inches 17th Aug 2021 13:53

Pretty sure restrictions on international travel will be around for at least another year, but domestic travel and most restrictions will be gone. The most she could be talking about is masks and social distancing, the basic stuff. Although Gladys could go for broke and do anything, she's stuffed at the next election anyway.


I think people are waiting to give everyone a chance to get vaccinated. That’s only fair given the complete f*ck up of a rollout.
Spot on, the average reasonable person is following the rules and hanging on those magic 70-80%, which most of us know is about everyone that wants to be vaccinated done and dusted. Once its close to that you wont see much tolerance of further lockdowns without some try at opening up and letting it rip. That will be the main driver, not whether the pollies want to or not.

Gnadenburg 17th Aug 2021 22:13

What the politicians and health bureaucrats may not be anticipating is the lack of a smooth transition out of Australia's pandemic response due to rapidly rising frustrations and fatigue. Civil disobedience can get quickly out of hand. More and more perceived inequalities due inconsistent health policies will fuel social discord. The economy will be put under strain however, Australians who will inevitably have to suffer, will see the cosy in government positions dictating "compliance" and "obedience" despite vaccination targets being achieved.

If you aren't getting vaccinated, stop dodging the salads, get some sunshine and general fitness. The let it rip sentiments may be upon us courtesy of unravelled social cohesions.


Paragraph377 17th Aug 2021 23:14


Originally Posted by Blackout (Post 11096678)

Here is a new figure - 100%. Gladys and her posse will still receive 100% of their public servant salaries during these unprecedented times. Gladys will get to travel domestically and internationally 100% of the time that she chooses too, all in the name of ‘contributing to the economy’ or whatever bullshit excuse they spin to us. Yes, our politicians are 100% protected from the disastrous fallout that they are creating for everybody else. Parasites.

hamfists 17th Aug 2021 23:37

If you haven’t been vaccinated and you end up in hospital the recommended treatment by the majority of American hospitals is Monoclonal, anti inflammatory corticosteroids, vitamin D, Zinc and a good antibiotic. Leave out the other contentious treatments those ones listed are the reason Covid deaths have dropped off a cliff since early in the pandemic. News from a month ago was that Delta is less virulent not more..that narrative seems to evolved with some sort of Chinese whispers among the great unwashed to the opposite belief.

​​​​​​…the news is good if you’re a glass half full person.

ICU advice is to NEVER ventilate a Covid patient (unless crashing). Best practice is to lay them face down on a bed with 100% oxygen non-invasive ventilation.

Covid casualties are still almost exclusively among the elderly with co-morbidities and the morbidly obese

43Inches 17th Aug 2021 23:59


Yes, our politicians are 100% protected from the disastrous fallout that they are creating for everybody else. Parasites.
Anyone that's not affected is not affected, doctors are working harder than ever, take-away and click collect providers and delivery services are reaping it in. However as I said before Gladys is only protected until the next election, then her job will be up for consideration, so no, she's not 100% protected. Not making excuses for her just making it clear we all have the ability to send any one of these pollies a clear message at the voting station next round. Even if you are not sure about the other guy, make it clear you didn't like what they did. If she gets decimated by public sentiment then she won't even have any political future, even in opposition.

neville_nobody 18th Aug 2021 00:12


However as I said before Gladys is only protected until the next election, then her job will be up for consideration, so no, she's not 100% protected. Not making excuses for her just making it clear we all have the ability to send any one of these pollies a clear message at the voting station next round. Even if you are not sure about the other guy, make it clear you didn't like what they did. If she gets decimated by public sentiment then she won't even have any political future, even in opposition.

So you would prefer Victorian style communist lockdown where you have to get written permission from the government to go to work? Australians are impossible. You complain about lockdowns and lost freedom, then want to vote out the only government that actually looks for a balance with freedom.

Do you really think a coast to coast Labor government would actually give you more freedom?

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 00:12


Covid casualties are still almost exclusively among the elderly with co-morbidities and the morbidly obese
Depends on the level of health care provided, Fiji recently had two pregnant women in their 30s die due to covid and a girl of 15. It's still a nasty disease, and if you get the severe symptoms and don't seek medical advice, you risk dieing at any age.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 00:16


So you would prefer Victorian style communist lockdown where you have to get written permission from the government to go to work? Australians are impossible. You complain about lockdowns and lost freedom, then want to vote out the only government that actually looks for a balance with freedom.
I never said Dan was immune to the same thing. Just very unlikely as a vast majority have supported his stance to date. Gladys has let it get to the point where there is civil incohesion and suburbs blaming each other, rules that are too complicated for the average Joe to understand. There is significant difference to how each is viewed by their own at the moment. You don't see individual Melbourne mayors speaking out about flawed State protocols etc... Melbourne everyone has basically the same rules, Sydney, its based on suburb, and the tradies are kicking up a stink in western suburbs due to them having to jab when a Bondi tradie can roam free. And BTW what lockdown and communism has to do with each other, no idea, the US has mandated curfews and lockdowns on cities due to civil disobedience. It's a dictatorial method or police state method. A Democracy can be a police state, as opposed to a liberal democracy. I think that's what you may have been referring to.

KRviator 18th Aug 2021 00:24

The problem with that concept, 43I, is that the only people who can vote Dan / Gladys out are their respective State citizens. Even though Gladys' failure to lockdown earlier has had nationwide implications, those in Qld or Vic have got no say, anymore than me having a say in McGoose's re-election hopes, even though I've spent more time actually in WA over the last decade than my home state...

FWIW, I don't blame Gladys for this screwup. Yes, they should have locked down earlier, we know that now. They were running their standard playbook for the original strain and got caught out by Delta that doesn't play by those rules. Vic is beginning to lose it, even EnZud has got cases of it now and they've had none for yonks. Of course, she could have kept it out of NSW for almost the entire pandemic by doing what Tasmania has done - not accept any incoming airfreight or international passengers but who else was going to step up and do it? Anna-Stayaway? McGoose?

I've noticed an increasing trend for Pollie's to start sprinkling their press conferences with comments such as "even if we get to 70% / 80% some restrictions will remain however, they will not verbalize just what those restrictions may be beyond masks and social distancing, as if to suggest that's all there will be.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 00:31


FWIW, I don't blame Gladys for this screwup. Yes, they should have locked down earlier, we know that now.
I would have agreed with that, except, less than 1 month before Sydney got its first case Gladys and their team were sticking the boot into Brett Sutton in Vic for suggesting "This Delta strain is far more virulent and seems to transmit in short casual contacts". So they had ample warning, and were using the situation for political mileage, not for any other reason. The whole wait and see was to sink the boot into Dan saying, look we did it without any lockdown. There was even a few NSW ministers that quite publicly claimed Sutton was incompetent for suggesting Delta was anymore communicable.

If it wasn't for that I'd agree with you, but with those sentiments and others, Gladys and her team were playing, "I'm better than you" politics and paid for it. She is definitely to blame.

PS Don't forget that SloMo was also in the background saying all the states should ease up, it ain't that bad. Now he's saying "Lockdowns are a necessary part of our road out". Only since it took off out of Sydney, "nothing to see here, hey I told you so, I always said you need to lock down hard and fast", *winks at Dan and backs away to maintain obscurity again*.

turbantime 18th Aug 2021 01:03

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/me...inst-covid-19/

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 01:06

While I disagree with forcing people to get jabs, it's obviously starting now, that if you don't get it you will have to really fight to hold that stance. That 4% is going to have to comply, fight hard or find other work...

Chronic Snoozer 18th Aug 2021 01:10


Originally Posted by turbantime (Post 11096955)

Good to see QANTAS has a plan.

turbantime 18th Aug 2021 01:16


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11096959)
While I disagree with forcing people to get jabs, it's obviously starting now, that if you don't get it you will have to really fight to hold that stance. That 4% is going to have to comply, fight hard or find other work...

Some colleagues have mentioned that they are going to start calling the anti-vaxxers who capitulate ‘pussies’. These anti-vaxxers have been extremely vocal, disruptive and downright dangerous. If they truly believe in their cause, they will resign. I predict that most won’t and will get the jab, therefore they are hypocrites and will be labelled as pussies for the rest of their careers.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 01:37


Some colleagues have mentioned that they are going to start calling the anti-vaxxers who capitulate ‘pussies’. These anti-vaxxers have been extremely vocal, disruptive and downright dangerous. If they truly believe in their cause, they will resign. I predict that most won’t and will get the jab, therefore they are hypocrites and will be labelled as pussies for the rest of their careers.
Sad to see, I'm obviously Pro-vax, but, I believe its just a matter of education on the subject. Hence I continue the fight on this forum, but I would happily have a beer and chew the fat with a non-vaxer, and yes you will get annoyed with me asking you to get the jab, but I don't hate them. I'm the same with any subject matter I get involved with, it's opinions. This one is just very important to everyones welfare, both physical and economic (my point of view). A lot of anti vaxxers are not crazies, they just don't trust the vaccines being so new, so that is an education issue, not a stupidity, ignorance or whatever, that only comes in what you flatly refute facts given to you or just flat make stuff up. Then theres the media who is just as much to blame as SloMo for the slow vaccine roll out.

DirectAnywhere 18th Aug 2021 01:55

Wonder what the vibe is this morning at the Coward St Wellness Centre? Is the yoga, basket making and garden walking sufficient to quell the angst at mandatory vaccination policy?

turbantime 18th Aug 2021 02:01


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11096968)
Sad to see, I'm obviously Pro-vax, but, I believe its just a matter of education on the subject. Hence I continue the fight on this forum, but I would happily have a beer and chew the fat with a non-vaxer, and yes you will get annoyed with me asking you to get the jab, but I don't hate them. I'm the same with any subject matter I get involved with, it's opinions. This one is just very important to everyones welfare, both physical and economic (my point of view). A lot of anti vaxxers are not crazies, they just don't trust the vaccines being so new, so that is an education issue, not a stupidity, ignorance or whatever, that only comes in what you flatly refute facts given to you or just flat make stuff up. Then theres the media who is just as much to blame as SloMo for the slow vaccine roll out.

Fair call. I don’t have a problem whatsoever with the ones that are hesitant as I get where they’re coming from. I too engage with them as best as I can.

The ones I’m referring to are on the extreme end of the scale. The ones who mock people for getting vaccinated. The ones who purposely go out of their way to spread misinformation and instil fear. The ones who beat their chests about how they are not sheep and no one can tell them what to do. I’m talking about the very low percentage of abject morons who we have the unfortunate misfortune of calling our colleagues. If they capitulate, and don’t resign, then they are hypocrites.

Xeptu 18th Aug 2021 02:07

I don't have any issue with the vaccine, but that's only because I'm old and it probably isn't going to matter either way. I'm more concerned about the virus itself and it's impact upon my grandchildren. We haven't really been introduced to it yet, only the corona its trojan horse. We don't know anything about it other than it's very long and complex. That surely has to mean lots of capabilities. It really does have us by the short and curlies, so I don't think we should be judging anyone for anything just yet.

Agent_86 18th Aug 2021 02:09

633 in SYD today....

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 02:17


The ones I’m referring to are on the extreme end of the scale. The ones who mock people for getting vaccinated. The ones who purposely go out of their way to spread misinformation and instil fear. The ones who beat their chests about how they are not sheep and no one can tell them what to do. I’m talking about the very low percentage of abject morons who we have the unfortunate misfortune of calling our colleagues. If they capitulate, and don’t resign, then they are hypocrites.
Oh yes, open season on them for sure, no problem with that. I think that might be a general theme throughout society not just certain workplaces. Most will conform and pretend nothing happened though.

Australopithecus 18th Aug 2021 02:34

Just got an email from Alan…vaccines mandatory from late November for ALL crew in the Qantas group.

Turnleft080 18th Aug 2021 02:37


Originally Posted by Agent_86 (Post 11096979)
633 in SYD today....

Gladys still saying we have the harshest lockdown, well us Vics have 24 cases today with curfew, Bunnings closed, and the cops monitoring those very naughty 5 year olds playing on the swings.

Max Tow 18th Aug 2021 02:45


Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer (Post 11096960)
Good to see QANTAS has a plan.

Well done QF for positive leadership. Shame that on such an important issue so many employees didn't consider the issue worthy of a response.
I trust that the silent minority will accept the will of those who engaged.

"....a survey sent to 22,000 people to seek their views on vaccination. The 12,000 responses received..."

Gnadenburg 18th Aug 2021 03:00


Originally Posted by Xeptu (Post 11096977)
I don't have any issue with the vaccine, but that's only because I'm old and it probably isn't going to matter either way. I'm more concerned about the virus itself and it's impact upon my grandchildren. We haven't really been introduced to it yet, only the corona its trojan horse. We don't know anything about it other than it's very long and complex. That surely has to mean lots of capabilities. It really does have us by the short and curlies, so I don't think we should be judging anyone for anything just yet.


Yes, who knows the effects of home schooling and an already retarded Australian education system, when your grandkids have to compete with the world that saw COVID in a different light? They'll inherit debt and higher taxes too and have seen politicians cowering to extract voter support instead of a genuine way out of COVID.

If our COVID response was genuinely about our children and their futures, we would have had a better response from all.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 03:08


Yes, who knows the effects of home schooling and an already retarded Australian education system, when your grandkids have to compete with the world that saw COVID in a different light? They'll inherit debt and higher taxes too and have seen politicians cowering to extract voter support instead of a genuine way out of COVID.

If our COVID response was genuinely about our children and their futures, we would have had a better response from all.
USA $6 trillion in covid stimulus funding, all debt, another $2-$4 trillion slated to get around $10 trillion USD in debt directly due to covid economic stimulus. That equates to $22,000 to $28,000 USD per capita.

Australia $250 billion AUD in direct economic stimulus, no significant more debt due in forward estimates(due to stimulus that is). That's about $8000 USD per capita. Pretty clear who's kids will deal with more debt.

Those figures don't even factor in direct covid costs such as loss of economic activity and the general cost of health care issues spread out over time, especially for long covid.

The UK meanwhile, is going to be screwed paying for the NHS for the next decade at least, unless they unwind some benefits.

Who has the best balance of trade of those 3 to pay off the debt it incurs?

Capn Rex Havoc 18th Aug 2021 03:27

43Inc - The US is coming out of this economically - Everything is open--- Aus - well cranking up the debt- A billion per week? I don''t know the numbers but that per capita spread you mentioned is gonna close pretty quickly.

(Oh and for my eyes can you every time you type "dieing" can you please change it to "dying")

Gnadenburg 18th Aug 2021 03:33

We have a completely different economy to the USA. Comparing the two is borderline irrelevant. We have different challenges and vulnerabilities going ahead. How responsible you think the COVID fiscal response is for this country, is dependant upon your view of how quickly these challenges and vulnerabilities can present. Soft, selfish and lacking national cohesion. Not great for future generations.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 03:34


Everything is open--- Aus - well cranking up the debt- A billion per week? I don''t know the numbers but that per capita spread you mentioned is gonna close pretty quickly.
Not entirely true, USA is still down 30% closure on SMEs. Some result of permanent closure, some closed by choice to avoid the virus and others waiting for the economy to pick up. While things may be open, there is a general fear of the virus subduing travel and trade among some populations. This will continue for a while. The reason the US economy is doing ok at the moment is that Biden pumped a few thousand bucks into every household 3-4 months ago. If something is not done relatively soon about the financial situation in the US there is going to be some severe pain for them coming.

Britain opened and growth has since stalled slightly due to similar reasons. A big drag on the UK economy is isolation of affected workers not being able to be productive. You still can't work while infected, which means all those positive cases, plus their families and close contacts are non productive, effectively like a lockdown.


We have a completely different economy to the USA. Comparing the two is borderline irrelevant. We have different challenges and vulnerabilities going ahead. How responsible you think the COVID fiscal response is for this country, is dependant upon your view of how quickly these challenges and vulnerabilities can present. Soft, selfish and lacking national cohesion. Not great for future generations.
Balance of trade is all that matters, how the economy produces it, who cares, if you spend more than you make like the UK and US, you eventually have to face your debtors. US is already seeing inflation creep up, this is not ideal. Your claim is that our children will be worse off than the rest of the world. There's absolutely no proof of that, in fact the complete opposite is true. And if you think we lack social cohesion, well you need to look at the rest of the world more closely.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 03:44


Dont worry about the economy guys, the Chinese will bail us out!
Australia is on the nose with China at the moment, very little investment from them coming our way any time soon. However they are still buying our stuff on a massive scale, so there is that.

But hey, ScoMo signed a deal to sell Tim Tams and Vegemite to the UK.

Capn Rex Havoc 18th Aug 2021 03:47

This is from Chris Uhlmann - The Sydney Morning Herald -


You might call it a form of Stockholm syndrome, except that Sweden chose another path. Here, of course, the cognoscenti decried it as a failure because over 14,000 died of the disease. But how are we defining success? In worldwide mortality charts Sweden does no worse than some nations that enforced swingeing restrictions, while our pursuit of the fool’s errand of COVID Zero has seen us level every liberty, destroy educations and livelihoods and shut ourselves off from the world.

As noted here before, it took us 230 years, but we finally managed to perfect the prison colony. We have even invented a perverse new “Covese” lexicon where “freedoms” are not rights, but gifts bestowed by premiers and where the police complain of “illegal family gatherings”.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/scot...17-p58jdy.html

Xeptu 18th Aug 2021 03:50

Speaking of China, given apparently their vaccine doesn't work all that well. Their containment and eradication policy must work pretty well since they are doing the best by far than anyone else in the world.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 04:01

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2f5d394f59.png
Swedish GDP growth rate.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....5ad30e19f4.png
Australian GDP growth.

So Sweden sacrificed 14,000 people to be about the same as Australia, sounds like a good trade :bored:. They have also spent Billions in Covid stimulus, so not much different in that respect either.

KRviator 18th Aug 2021 04:18


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11097028)
So Sweden sacrificed 14,000 people to be about the same as Australia, sounds like a good trade :bored:.

Except they are out working, visiting family, travelling, and - begad! - going to the playground without getting arrested! Yep, that does sound like a pretty good trade to me. :hmm:


Originally Posted by 43I
They have also spent Billions in Covid stimulus, so not much different in that respect either.

Except....They are out working, visiting family, travelling and - begad! - going to the playground without getting arrested! That still sounds like a pretty good trade to me....:ugh:

14,000 (their deaths) * 2.5 (our pop over theirs) = 35,000 Aussie deaths. 35,000 * 5.0M AUD = $175B AUD in 'statistical lives lost', without considering anything else. Still seems like a pretty good trade to me...:mad:

Turnleft080 18th Aug 2021 04:19


Originally Posted by Xeptu (Post 11097025)
Speaking of China, given apparently their vaccine doesn't work all that well. Their containment and eradication policy must work pretty well since they are doing the best by far than anyone else in the world.

Yep, they gave shipments to India did they not. India in a few months have gone from 500,000 cases down to a managable 25,000 cases in a few months. Whatever shit is in that injection I want some baby.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 04:30

https://www.berlin.de/corona/en/measures/

That is the current list of restrictions in Berlin, a lot of activities such as going to a restaurant, require either proof of vaccination or proof of negative covid test.

Germany lost 90,000 to the virus, if you applied Swedens death rate to Germany they would have lost 125,000. But that's not even a fair comparison as Germanys population density is way higher than Swedens by a significant factor and it's smack bang in teh middle of the EU meaning lots of traffic through it. At a guess you could double that 125,000 for Germany quite easily in adjusting for density had they let it rip.

https://www.government.se/articles/2...-restrictions/

BTW, if Sweden was so open why are they lifting restrictions progressively?

And here they are;

https://www.krisinformation.se/en/ha...ecommendations

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 04:41


But nobody has been factoring death data due to lockdown restrictions. Also, people not being able to visit a hospital due to 'other' health conditions.

So mostly, the data is flawed.
Already done that earlier, suicide rates are actually lower for 2020/21 than 2019, seems life pressures from work and travel exceed lock down pressures. Who would've thought it was more relaxing to stay at home and watch tv with the family. Pretty sure mortality rates for stupid activities also took a dive during lockdown, so it had positive outcomes for a lot of things as a side effect.

The only real argument is that we are sacrificing rights during the lockdown, and how far do you go.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 05:05

I agree it's all part and parcel, the stats are just that, numbers assigned to a chart. Now suicide rate might be stable but yeah there might be 50% are due to lockdown. The key really is, how much does locking down cost vs staying open, how many would suicide because they lose a family member to covid and feel lost and alone, what mental health effects would that have on the survivors if they knew they could have done more?. How many will blame themselves for bringing covid into their family and causing the death of a loved one.

It's not as though you let everyone die and suddenly everyone is going to be happy, pretty sure those affected will have grief, regret and anger. So the mental health issue applies to both cases of lockdown or not.

So far all indicators are it saves lives and in the long run you are no worse off than other countries economically that have had to deal with covid. Yes we sacrifice active freedoms, but, part of the community in affected countries cant leave home due to fear. Which is better? time might give us an answer, or maybe not...

turbantime 18th Aug 2021 05:09


Originally Posted by Blackout (Post 11097046)
43Logic,

Did you take into account people not being able to access normal medical treatment, or the people that should off received normal medical treatment but were too scared of covid to get the medical treatment?

What makes you think that these same people would come forward for treatment if we let the virus rip through the population?

The rest I agree with.

SOPS 18th Aug 2021 05:25

If you know anyone from WA that is currently in NSW and they want to
go home.. tell them to leave today.

I am pretty sure that the border will be shut to everyone from NSW as from tomorrow. No exceptions. Nil, nada, no way. And unless The Golden Girl can get the cases down, it could remain like that for the rest of the year.

I don’t want to know how you think this is a good/ bad/ terrible idea. I’m just warning people what I am pretty sure is about to happen.


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