If the USA recovered so well why is their Covid recovery package over double per capita than Australia? $6 Trillion USD with more slated to come, which is over $22,000 per person with about another $10,000 per person expected in the next year. That is Stimulus alone, not the cost of Covid.

Meanwhile Australia has only spent around $11,000 AUD ($8000 USD)per person on Covid stimulus and still is better off compared the US when you factor recovery since last year.

Again ranting emotive language will not change the data.

As far as scared, you should be if you are not vaccinated, if you are then you have no reason to fear it. The mortality rate and severe complications become comparable to the flu once vaccinated. My Opinion is that Australia will most likely open around New Year or earlier if vaccine targets are met. From then you are either vaccinated or have Covid the natural way.

couldn't agree more Rexy but trust me you are wasting yr breath on some in here, they are locked in to the fear and nothing will sway them!-) I'm not vaxed never will be and that drive some crazy, I love it, still waiting to die, according to them! -)

No doubt, but that's why I said i believe that that will all change in a few more months as the vaccine rate hits targets. Remembering that from when you start getting vaccinated it's a minimum of 6 -8 weeks before you are fully protected, that's assuming Pfizer, Az being 3 months or so. Its pretty important to get on the way soon if that's what you want.

If you want to be Macho about it and wrestle with the virus with your pure unadulterated immune system, go for it. It just sounds like challenging the gods to a duel for no reason other than an authority complex. I'm sure the virus will appreciate the easy ride, if it had that ability, to appreciate that is.

I actually admire your decision, not judging either way, your one of those we need to stay in touch with to see how that goes long term.

The only further point I'd cover is that statement probably just null and voided any loss of medical insurance you have, so not necessarily smart to let it be known public if you are covered by a policy. Same as suicide clauses you wont be covered for anything you could reasonably be expected to have covered yourself against. If you should have issues due to covid.

I’m not allowed to post links but do a quick search of anti vaxxers who have died from COVID.
Good luck champ!

43in Did you miss my post re VACCINATED people still transmit the virus.

But vaccinated people are still catching it and dying - so I guessed you are stuffed. I heard Gladys say that a gentleman died yesterday in Sydney - fully vaccinated.

MachTuck - I will have a beer with you - no vaccination passport required.

I think you have missed that the point of mass vaccinations is to reduce the symptoms and rates of death in individuals. Vaccinated people with breakthrough cases have more than 90% less rate of death or severe symptoms. Reduced symptoms like coughing and such would also reduce the spread relative to someone coughing all over the place.

Once enough of the population is vaccinated the country can open, people will still get sick, but they will not die and far less will require hospital/medical services. That will happen towards the end of the year. After that I'm pretty sure empathy for unvaccinated will go out the window and economics will prevail.

Not quite sure why people thinking it still spreads while you are vaccinated means it don't work. Same as the flu vaccine its there to reduce effects, not stop it. However some individuals may even be protected enough to claim full immunity from it.

Just look at the UK, massive case rates, very low death and hospitalisation rates. Not ideal to have large cases, as it allows for mutation, but as long as the death and hospitalisation rates state way down like they are, things will open.

That’s true, don’t let the facts ruin the story tho.
there was a 90yr old
there was a 40yr old that was already in palliative care
the was a 70 yr old with pre existing medical conditions all three the only fully vaccinated to die in NSW.

Um, I don't think you've ever read the fine print on your insurance policy. You are one funny character, sounds like you don't like me and just have to say something that isn't particularly intelligent just to amuse me.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-v...ance-premiums/

Here's one way the US system may be covering for unvaccinated employees.

In the US where some states are mandating you can't force employees to vaccinate the health insurers are responding that premiums will rise for unvaccinated due to elevated risk. It will either follow here, or further that they just exclude those that don't vaccinate.

If anyone thinks for a minute that the individual state's won't lockdown after the target of 70/80% is reached, then you are delusional. Why would they risk voter backlash? Andrews has already said he will if he has to.

This is from the England Public Health weekly Technical Briefings - the integrity of their data is probably the best out there (or at least the best that is written in English). The English govt updates this every week. Amazing data really.

Here is the link to their Technical Briefing #20 which covers everything to do with Covid cases, hospitalisations and deaths from Feb 1, 2021 – August 2, 2021.

You can see the data on this link: https://assets.publishing.service.go...riefing_20.pdf

They cover all the variants, but these days, nearly everything is all Delta. You can see this on page 20.

If you go to page 18, you can see data for Cases, People who attended Emergency but did not get hospitalised, Hospitalisations and Deaths. Take a look through it.

Where you see the word “Unlinked” – this means that they are not sure if it is Delta or a different variant. Either way they could not determine the genome sequencing.

Where you see the word “Inclusions”, this means that that the patient presented for another reason, but by chance, upon testing, also had Covid. So they have included these cases in the figures.

Where you see “Exclusions”, this means that they have excluded cases where Covid was not the reason of going to the hospital.

Anyway here are the results; and through laziness, I have counted “Vaccinated” are those who have had at least 1 shot; but the data separates out 1 shot and double shot if you want to drill down.

Total Delta Cases Vaccinated Unvaccinated

300,010. 117,115 147,612

Delta Hospitalisations Vaccinated Unvaccinated

3,030 1,249. 1,738

Delta Deaths Vaccinated Unvaccinated

742. 481 253

Fascinating numbers. Either way, deaths are super low. But I think it would surprise most to see current Vaccinated deaths are nearly twice of the unvaccinated. And also that those vaccinated deaths are coming from slightly less cases and slightly less hospitalizations

Conclusions: Well the death rate last year for the Alpha strain was much higher. The Delta strain is more contagious but less deadly. And likely the Vaccine is more effective against Alpha than with Delta, because it was designed for Alpha OR maybe the vaccines are waning. Boosters designed for Delta are likely on the way but by the time they come, Delta may no longer be the dominant strain.

So 43inches - There is some data for you. You may have a tad misplaced faith in the vaccines. Delta is winning the war. Vaccinations passports - Useless/pointless.

No misplaced faith at all, spent a number of days last week talking to actual doctors in a hospital. They pretty much all agreed the data from around the world is unanimous in that the vaccines reduce deaths and hospitalisations from Covid in as much as 97%. If the data you presented is accurate it goes directly against what health care professionals are being informed. BTW they were all 100% vaccinated some with AZ. Doctors and nurses, many with stories of friends with long covid from last years episode.

I'm, mostly fighting to get people to vaccinate because I've seen and talked to medical staff who are just frustrated with the crap circulating on this, basically trying to help them out, as they are the ones on the front line that cop it when it gets out of control. That and the others that actually argue with them while they are dieing of covid that covid doesn't exist. The ****e you see people do in hospitals just goes beyond belief, when all the staff are doing is trying to help.

I just read the document, you have either been intentionally mischievous or not understood it properly.

The Delta Death vs Vaccintated or Unvaccinated has to be done vs age group.

SO in the over 50 bracket. The total that received two doses and died was 389 of 21,472 cases, 1.8%, 1131 needed overnight hospitalisation 5.3%. The total Unvaxed death rate was 205 of 3440 cases, 6%, 670 hospitalised overnight, 20%.

Those figures show about 75% reduction in severity of outcomes for the vaccinated, that's still pretty compelling evidence vaccinations are doing what they should.

One thing that really stands out is that under 50, 4 times more infections were among unvaccinated than vaccinated. Thats why your total figures came to a skewed answer, only 20,000 under 50 vaccinated had the virus, vs 147,000 unvaccinated with virus. So if you grouped them with the over 50s it would give you a flawed death rate. Fact is it shows that as well as slowing symptoms it is actually infecting less vaccinated persons. Connsidering the majority of the UK is now vaccinated to have such one sided figures means there is some complete immunity happening at a high rate.

This thread is more entertaining than Question time in the kindergarten they call Parliment house! -)
You couldn't dream this sh1t up for a fiction novel if ya tried! -)


Rexy we won't live long enuf to have a beer mate, by all accounts we should be dead by now and a few will be very disappointed if we don't! -) -)

They would have to have a damn good reason to lockdown without voter backlash if we did reach targets and not "unlock". I think you would face too much civil disobedience for them to go that route even if they wanted to. Once you promise something you need to deliver or you will get the flick.

Vaccinations passports might be a little pointless only if you think that the purpose is to indicate that said person won't catch it nor won't transit it. Quite useful if you think the purpose is to (i) save them from themselves ie make sure they have taken some basic precautions (ii) not displace an ICU bed from a cancer or trauma patient, if and when they return home needing hospitalization (iii) not transmit COVID to some poor immuno-suppressed bugger in hospital when they drag their unvaxxed asre home and have to share a ward.

I have not heard anyone half-sensible say/write something other than once we are at 70% to 80% vaxxed then the unvaxxed can basically get shafted and mother nature can pick off the weak ones. Even so-called Chairman Dan said stuff to this effect about six weeks ago. Right now however we have a huge slice of the population that have not had prior opportunity.

It is perfectly clear that there is a significant % of case fatality in Aus amongst not particularly vulnerable pax not lucky enough to secure a vax, and that nowhere in the world has any authority managed to keep COVID in a simmer state. You either crush it, let it rip, or sit hopelessly in purgatory like NSW. Happy happy simmer state does not exist. Welcome Glady and friends to the reality, truly sorry for 5m people or so in Sydney that lost a full six weeks before it clicked.

Just get to 70% and 80% vax and then social and political pressure will deal with the rest. We're all sick of this and the vaxxed will not tolerate 2022 being restricted whatsoever. First hand experience says that certainly that is more or less where the CoA thinking is at in Aus at the present time, and probably from here on in.

So stop bashing 43 and DD from boredom; we're not at a point where let-it-rip is yet wise, but it is coming and it will happen. Until then it will all be sh*t.

43 inches truly lives in eternal fear of catching the dreaded China virus. It’s so funny because you 43 inches being a triple vaccinated, 5 x mask wearing, face shield wearing, hand sanitizer strapped to the waste belt, locked in a basement with its own oxygen supply person will likely catch it anyway!!!

If that holds true there won't be an airline industry in this country anymore. Noone is going to last another year of the current insanity.

It's illegal but all three airlines should just collude and go to the government with a date on which they will close the doors if the borders don't fully open without restriction.

I think there's some social lotion flowing tonight....

Not sure what the point of those videos were, one is Kary Mullis saying PCR can detect anything you want, that's true, you can find just about anything if you look hard enough. The other is Fauci talking about what minimum viral loads detected by PCR are required to deem a patient no longer infectious and able to go back to home or a nursing home, they both seem wildly out of context. Is this supposed to link to something?

I'm not quite sure what the angle is here, are you saying that too many cases are being registered because of the low positive testing threshold?

That's plausible, would answer why death rate seemed to drop during Delta strain. Which means the death rate is actually higher than stated as too many are being classified as positive when not. Death from covid is measured differently than just being positive, the cause of death would have to be symptomatic with the virus to be assigned that cause.

43 inches from the Virgin 3.1 thread;

“Because I do get out there and do things I have almost died from a bacteria far worse than Covid. That being said, your understanding of statistics is lacking, you don't catch heart disease or cancer, these things are genetic dispositions or some exposure to things that cause them, ie bad diet for heart disease or long term exposure to smoking for cancer. The 1% we discuss with Covid is your chance of dieing from it now, not what your possible eventual cause of death will be. Things that give you 1/100 chance of a heart attack or cancer immediately or quickly resulting in your death are heavily regulated for the safety of the stupid. This is why electricians do your house wiring and strict regulations of food or who can operate machinery etc. Some idiot who does not wish to quarantine can just walk past sneeze on me and I now have Covid and a 1 in 100 chance of dieing from it within a few weeks. Here's a contentious thought, a study on suicide attempts found only 1.5% of attempts using cuts or drugs resulted in death, so people that actually try to kill themselves using medical means are only slightly more likely to die of it than Covid infection”.

You are truly one of those paranoid delusional people who go through life fearing germs and anything else even remotely scary. I can’t even imagine the hoops you put Mrs 43 inches through each time she leaves the house and then comes back inside - full body ultra violet scan, stand under a heated shower for 25 minutes and scrub with hospital grade anti bacterial soap, remove all clothes and place in plastic bag to be sent through an autoclave, exterior of the house protected by a fully enclosed bubble with security measures similar to accessing the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

43, either get a life or move to Antartica or to an abandoned Queensland farm on 300,000 hectares where you will be safe from everything except falling meteorites (which could also contain micro organisms). Stop using your comfort blanket of trying to convince everyone to acquiesce to your level of paranoia in the hope that by doing so it will help to protect you from getting the virus.

Doesn't really matter that much. 1% or 0.1 percent fatality rate is still a lot. 1 in 1e+5 or 1e+6 is different and generally thought tolerable. Vax means 1e+5 or so. That's all that matters, rest is just noise.

I sincerely hope you are drunk or maybe just joking, you come across a little unhinged there mr 377.
I will say it one more time though, Im vaccinated and have no fear of the virus at all.

Im asking the more sane reasonable ones out there to get vaccinated so we can open up and get back to Aviating.

If you are reading some sort of fear into my posts you have some wild imagination happening.

I do understand why people are lashing out but it is not very rational. Govts need to keep COVID out because they have no effective means of suppressing it other than keeping people stationary and indoors. Personally I can't see Vic doing more than a two weeks in a row without lockdowns between now and November. Aviation is stuffed until then. Lifestyle ditto. COVID has us by the b**ls, soz but that's the bottom line.

PCR tests are maximum about 80% true positive. That is pre-delta and at day 4-6 of infection; ramps up prior and down after. Worry about the false negative rate, not the other way. Really bewildering why test accuracy has not improved in 18 months. As already stated, false negative is the key issue.

Rapid antigen are less than 80% true pos, but actually do better on part of the shoulder period to PCR max, and are cheap and quick. Should be being used a lot more in Aus. Are being used in some situations, a bit below the radar, e.g. certain progressive logistics and food processing coys.

As above, false neg is the main concern.

Edit: that alt-guardian site (or whatever it is) is total QAnon crazy land, but article kind of latching on to a truth, in a weirdarse sort of way
PPS. that https://off-guardian.org site accepted my first few couple of reasoned posts kind of, then they won't show any more. Wonder why the AI is out to get me? Cookies, IP addresses and conspiracies? Didn't like being challenged by an actual technologist/scientist? Maybe they are actually psuedo-news, tin-foil hatters, propagandists... you choose!!!

Hand-drawn to protect the innocent, this is based on some reputable data, it is the PCR test sensitivity, for true positive cases. Explains why pax are leaving hotel quarrie and then doing some spreading... indicative only, work on the impression not the absolutes.https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....015af16523.png

Gladys doing lockdown attempt number two! A lot of ppl still getting around and there is still a lot open out there, I’m on my way to Bunnings now, then the cafe for a coffee. NSW is a joke now.

yes and I noticed that they didn’t close the real estate loophole that Byron man used. So you can still leave Sydney to go and view a property.

and we get the statewide lockdown announcement only hours after the daily media conference and it was done by Twitter and Facebook. Staggering.

Might as well flip a coin, utterly pointless. Unless you have at least 95% then forget it.

As long as it’s not an investment property you can go! At the coffee shop now, whilst take away is the order there is about 30 odd standing around drinking their coffee in front of the cafe. Good work Gladys. A lockdown should be just that, only supermarkets, Medical practice, chemist and fuel stations. The rest should be closed.

and how are they going to enforce it. I have just decided to make the most of high prices in Sydney and sell up. Think I might move to Coffs. Might just arrange a viewing of a property next weekend. Take the family up for a few days. Prove me wrong.

as for what should be open and closed completely agree. And we are at week 8 now. And they should have been a lot tougher on enforcing the rules but we all know why that didn’t happen don’t we. Given the area in south west Sydney where the non compliance was rampant.

This is the time to rip of the Covid band aid - I’m quite happy we are having the out break and it’s time to learn to live with it. Any at risk has had many many months to get vaccinated - if you are not at risk but personally scared of Covid get AZ. NSW will be ahead with living with Covid and opening up once and for all - no more lockdowns!

Victoria 25 new cases today.

Don’t shoot the messenger, after my coffee I’m going to look at property also.

I was watching the USA morning show this morning they were reporting in massive spike in positive cases mainly in Florida. USA are not locking down shutting the economy. They seem to be enforcing mask wearing having empty stadiums at sports etc.

my property scenario was hypothetical only.

as for the us, bit of a worry they are still having any restrictions. They are way ahead of us in vaccination rates. And I would hazard an educated guess and say anyone now unvaccinated has chosen not to be. They need to just open up.

They’re open - the first 4min of this is all you need to see:

This is the problem with the high case numbers, I'm not sure how much avoidance is mandated rules or just population scared to gather. The latter is definitely on the minds of friends I have over there especially with the high rate of children being infected, and some of those getting very sick, although thankfully not dieing. And I will use the words getting sick as they are not just testing positive, some are having very severe symptoms leading to lack of eating and drinking for several days and needing medical intervention.

The reason I'm seeing in some states for the rapid spread is that anti vax sentiment also spreads in pockets like the virus itself, so certain towns have very high proportion of unvaccinated, despite the whole country having a generally high rate. This then means when it gets loose in those populations it spreads rapidly among them. You don't get the fire break in the chain in those areas that having 2 of 3 vaccinated offers.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-...-rip/100361880


https://www.skynews.com.au/world-new...c3b378d9774c5b

Just for information my view is not based on either of those news reports but on what I've heard from friends over there. The news is just covering a similar topic.

Yeah, I think by the time Australia’s vaccination is mostly completed (whenever that is) there’ll be a comparatively even uptake of vaccines. In the US there’s certain areas (seemingly ones that support the former President) that are much higher in their vaccine refusal rates, up to a 20% difference. This is with the vaccine uptake rates beginning to slow down so it there’ll be certain pockets that have a large number of unvaccinated.

In Australia there’s some differences in state rates now, about 10%, but I’d expect as the rollout is still a work in progress and more Pfizer and Moderna now coming online in the last quarter of the year it should be a relatively even distribution across the country once we all the time above 70/80%. It should prevent Covid becoming a “pandemic of the unvaccinated” here.

McGowen on Sky News AM agenda today has said despite the National Cabinet agreement promising the country would open up once 80 per cent of residents had been vaccinated, he would retain a zero COVID policy and not tolerate any COVID cases or deaths in his state. “His state” he owns you all he thinks.

Or they could just be catching during quarantine from other travellers.....