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that you can’t even attract current Second Officers to take up the role of FO Shorthaul.
The supposed point of PIA was to bring the company back to the table and offer an acceptable deal.
That didn’t happen.
Instead, the company (and now the AFAP through their submissions) have effectively said that negotiations are over and now a third party will determine the outcome. An outcome that is out of the control of the bargaining agents - assuming no deal is reached within the next 13 days.
All this talk of ‘PIA is the only language that Qantas understands’ has done nothing to force them to agree to a better deal in this case.
None of this is to say that there is no place for PIA, there is, it just has to be used wisely.
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PIA might also provide a suitably strong signal to the FWC about how far pay and conditions have fallen below market value. I’m not sure whether they are moved by such things but seeing how enthusiastically the overwhelming majority of pilots went down that path speaks volumes about the current and proposed contracts. If they are paying attention it’s the smoke for the fire that will be the likely exodus of crew, and they have to consider the impact on society with these things, not just the needs of the business or employees. I agree, it might not offer any value to the outcome, but, short of people leaving en masse, I don’t know how else we could have communicated just how substandard the proposals were.
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In the majors in the US they can't get internal applicants for commands because people are opting for lifestyle.
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PIA might also provide a suitably strong signal to the FWC about how far pay and conditions have fallen below market value. I’m not sure whether they are moved by such things but seeing how enthusiastically the overwhelming majority of pilots went down that path speaks volumes about the current and proposed contracts. If they are paying attention it’s the smoke for the fire that will be the likely exodus of crew, and they have to consider the impact on society with these things, not just the needs of the business or employees.
It includes things like the merits of the case, the interests of the parties and the reasonableness of the conduct of bargaining representatives during bargaining. Importantly, 'how productivity might be improved in the enterprise' must also be taken into account.
I also agree on this. I have heard many times from various people in corporate who have said 'well no one is leaving so it can't be that bad.' This is an abhorrent attitude, but it is one that they believe in. I think THIS is the only language they recognise. I believe the kind of mainline applicants now show that pilots are now voting with their feet and moving for lifestyle and $$ reasons rather than the more traditional 'quick command' motivators. And the industry hasn't kept up.
When mainline are threatening people with termination in their contract if they don’t bid for shorthaul on day 1, plus even JQ can’t fill per and syd commands. There is no hope for second tier operators. They need to stump up the cash or close their doors.
After all, a mainline FO on year 1 pay can expect mid 200s or even higher if they chase. A JQ captain can earn north of 300k if they also work hard.
However the worm has turned. It’s all about lifestyle these days. No one wants to live in an aeroplane. We got stood down during covid and many of us realised there is a life outside of aviation. One that is equally fulfilling.
One that won’t cause you to be dead at 67.
After all, a mainline FO on year 1 pay can expect mid 200s or even higher if they chase. A JQ captain can earn north of 300k if they also work hard.
However the worm has turned. It’s all about lifestyle these days. No one wants to live in an aeroplane. We got stood down during covid and many of us realised there is a life outside of aviation. One that is equally fulfilling.
One that won’t cause you to be dead at 67.
If they want pilots to move to Sydney, they can pay a $3million housing allowance. A pilots salary should be able to afford them a 4x2 family home within 30mins of the airport not a 1 bedroom unit within an hour of the airport. Qantas can start buying homes for staff if they don't want to pay salaries that keep up with inflation. Thats reality and they can deal with it!
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I guess chasing Qantas short haul conditions is a reasonable baseline to target when they’re so far behind.
However, don’t for one moment think that the pay and conditions that the short haul agreement contains is anywhere near acceptable. Given the time that it’s been around, AIPA should be ashamed of themselves for letting it get to such a ****house state that you can’t even attract current Second Officers to take up the role of FO Shorthaul.
The current shorthaul agreement is now so far behind where it should be, that it’s going to take things like PIA to get it even close to where it needs to be, mainly because you have such an opponent in QF IR that would rather see aircraft parked against the fence than to possibly give pilots a liveable and acceptable salary.
AIPA’s ‘softly softly’ and ‘we will continue to work with the company’ approach is outdated and ineffective.
However, don’t for one moment think that the pay and conditions that the short haul agreement contains is anywhere near acceptable. Given the time that it’s been around, AIPA should be ashamed of themselves for letting it get to such a ****house state that you can’t even attract current Second Officers to take up the role of FO Shorthaul.
The current shorthaul agreement is now so far behind where it should be, that it’s going to take things like PIA to get it even close to where it needs to be, mainly because you have such an opponent in QF IR that would rather see aircraft parked against the fence than to possibly give pilots a liveable and acceptable salary.
AIPA’s ‘softly softly’ and ‘we will continue to work with the company’ approach is outdated and ineffective.
shorthaul contract is a joke. Pilots at work ALL day for 2 hours of pay. Ridiculous terms and terrible pay for the responsibility and training.
AIPA should absolutely be ashamed. Nathan Safe should disappear and never come back. What a grub.
Time for some real change and to claw back about 50% of lost pay over the previous 20 years.
enough is enough.
even new hires don’t want 737 FO, shows supply and demand and remuneration are way out of balance.
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Yes, that one…
If memory serves, it contained no improvements above CPI(?) just threats of giving the new aircraft to another entity. I also note that the EA you posted was only active for a little over a year. It makes you wonder why the EA was going to expire so quickly and what was going on during the few years prior to its signing.
As for NAA, that EA expired in 2020, some 3 years prior. There was no genuine attempt by QF to get to the table until just prior to PIA, and that was because the first deal was terrible and negotiations had stalled. Standard stonewalling and threats triggered the only response available to unions in what is a very asymmetric fight. PIA got things moving again and pretty quickly too.
The beautiful irony in all this is that if had Qantas thrown a decent offer down rather than trying to game the pilots, the contract would have been signed possibly years ago. Well before we became a commodity in high demand. The market is speaking and the next offer needs to be pretty good in order to keep ahead of that cost curve.
If memory serves, it contained no improvements above CPI(?) just threats of giving the new aircraft to another entity. I also note that the EA you posted was only active for a little over a year. It makes you wonder why the EA was going to expire so quickly and what was going on during the few years prior to its signing.
As for NAA, that EA expired in 2020, some 3 years prior. There was no genuine attempt by QF to get to the table until just prior to PIA, and that was because the first deal was terrible and negotiations had stalled. Standard stonewalling and threats triggered the only response available to unions in what is a very asymmetric fight. PIA got things moving again and pretty quickly too.
The beautiful irony in all this is that if had Qantas thrown a decent offer down rather than trying to game the pilots, the contract would have been signed possibly years ago. Well before we became a commodity in high demand. The market is speaking and the next offer needs to be pretty good in order to keep ahead of that cost curve.
I guess chasing Qantas short haul conditions is a reasonable baseline to target when they’re so far behind.
However, don’t for one moment think that the pay and conditions that the short haul agreement contains is anywhere near acceptable. Given the time that it’s been around, AIPA should be ashamed of themselves for letting it get to such a ****house state
However, don’t for one moment think that the pay and conditions that the short haul agreement contains is anywhere near acceptable. Given the time that it’s been around, AIPA should be ashamed of themselves for letting it get to such a ****house state
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I strongly doubt it. Don’t forget the current FWC Commissioners were mostly appointed under Abetz, Porter and Cash. They come from circles where unions are generally disliked and ‘productivity’ (ie less protections) are desired. 29 out of 38 Commissioners come from employer backgrounds vs worker backgrounds.
Maybe they think we’re bluffing and will be content with something along the lines of what was voted down four times. The numbers leaving now and the mighty ball ache Qantas is having recruiting and retaining staff on the much better contracts they have elsewhere would indicate otherwise. If Qantas get what they want out of this it will be a pyrrhic victory- even more so than the ’win’ they had against NJS crew.
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If they want pilots to move to Sydney, they can pay a $3million housing allowance. A pilots salary should be able to afford them a 4x2 family home within 30mins of the airport not a 1 bedroom unit within an hour of the airport. Qantas can start buying homes for staff if they don't want to pay salaries that keep up with inflation. Thats reality and they can deal with it!
“If memory serves, it contained no improvements above CPI(?) just threats of giving the new aircraft to another entity. I also note that the EA you posted was only active for a little over a year. It makes you wonder why the EA was going to expire so quickly and what was going on during the few years prior to its signing.”
GFR, your memory is faulty.
Increases to pay rates were not related to CPI. The threats you talk about were part of the EBA 9 and EBA 10 discussions. B787 and A350 respectively.
EBA7 was rolled over and continued until 2010 (14 years ago . 20-14 does not equal 20+ years as you state).
Before it there was EBA5 and EBA6 as can be noted in the page below.
EBA 8 was voted down by the pilots, that is why there was an EBA 7 Rollover.
EBAs 9 & 10 were voted up overwhelmingly by pilots with a very large percentage of pilots taking part in the vote.
GFR, your memory is faulty.
Increases to pay rates were not related to CPI. The threats you talk about were part of the EBA 9 and EBA 10 discussions. B787 and A350 respectively.
EBA7 was rolled over and continued until 2010 (14 years ago . 20-14 does not equal 20+ years as you state).
Before it there was EBA5 and EBA6 as can be noted in the page below.
EBA 8 was voted down by the pilots, that is why there was an EBA 7 Rollover.
EBAs 9 & 10 were voted up overwhelmingly by pilots with a very large percentage of pilots taking part in the vote.
Last edited by JamieMaree; 16th Mar 2024 at 03:34.
presidents moving to management shortly after pushing a **** deal to pilots. it’s all too common.
Nathan Safe was the worst. Filled his own pockets, while knifing everyone. AIPA should refuse to negotiate with him on principle.
AIPA has not been aggressive enough. Even now they’re soft. Stand up AIPA!
pilot wages are garbage, I’m getting to the point where I’d rather move on and not have the stress, training, responsibility etc.
every other industry moves up, while we go down the toilet. Seniority system has caused a lack of ability to move on from bad employers…company needs to acknowledge loyalty and not use it to screw our conditions
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This PIA that network has achieved has done more for the industry already than AIPA has ever done in the last few negotiations.
it has brought to light the significant inequality that pilots face, it’s brought to light the significant bullying and harassment that QF IR employ to increase their own KPIs and it reinforces the ability of unity within pilot and work groups.
shame on the MBA spuds/management/pole climbers, who want to **** on the people who are actually making a difference.
PIA works.
it has brought to light the significant inequality that pilots face, it’s brought to light the significant bullying and harassment that QF IR employ to increase their own KPIs and it reinforces the ability of unity within pilot and work groups.
shame on the MBA spuds/management/pole climbers, who want to **** on the people who are actually making a difference.
PIA works.
GFR,
I found this one too. You too can find Shorthaul pilots EBAs 7,6,5 if you bother to look. They were all concluded favourably without PIA.
So I think your view on the result of PIA is not backed up by the facts.
I found this one too. You too can find Shorthaul pilots EBAs 7,6,5 if you bother to look. They were all concluded favourably without PIA.
So I think your view on the result of PIA is not backed up by the facts.
If that’s the case it wouldn’t matter what course of action the unions took- qantas was always going to offer up a turd and fair work would force us to take it. The result may well be an airline with insufficient crew to achieve its core mission of providing FIFO transport, which is something that has implications for society in general. Bias or not they at least have to have a degree of integrity and aim for a deal that maintains a stable workforce but doesn’t bankrupt an employer.
Maybe they think we’re bluffing and will be content with something along the lines of what was voted down four times. The numbers leaving now and the mighty ball ache Qantas is having recruiting and retaining staff on the much better contracts they have elsewhere would indicate otherwise. If Qantas get what they want out of this it will be a pyrrhic victory- even more so than the ’win’ they had against NJS crew.
Maybe they think we’re bluffing and will be content with something along the lines of what was voted down four times. The numbers leaving now and the mighty ball ache Qantas is having recruiting and retaining staff on the much better contracts they have elsewhere would indicate otherwise. If Qantas get what they want out of this it will be a pyrrhic victory- even more so than the ’win’ they had against NJS crew.
Or is just shuttering the airline and blaming the pilots the real alternative.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 16th Mar 2024 at 03:24.
My take away from your posts is that mainline contracts SH and LH seem to get through no problems. I guess if QF dislike PIA so much, they should get everyone on the SH agreement and can this subsidiary bullsh!t.