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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 01:19
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Originally Posted by MikeHatter732
And then be sure to call everyone in every other subsidiary a bin chicken, even though you voted a B scale into effect to throw new hires under the bus.
Mainline SOs on a B or C scale, whatever you want to call it are paid more than Netlink FOs.

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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 01:22
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Who is pushing for PIA? I bet it’s not AIPA
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 01:25
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Someone trying to improve their future then I’m not interested in their past they have my support . Good luck to them .
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 02:33
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Someone trying to improve their future then I’m not interested in their past they have my support . Good luck to them .
What a wise statement.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 02:52
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Mainline SOs on a B or C scale, whatever you want to call it are paid more than Netlink FOs.
… and agree to my new colleagues getting 25% less pay to do my same job. Nice.

At least mainline pilots are consistent over the last two decades. The root cause of gifting QF the JQ, JC, NJS, NWK pilot pay scales to the Australian pilot profession. Never opposed the opportunity to sign off on a short sighted, self indulgent 3% payrise or cash bonus token.

Now they are bewildered why their group is shrinking, and preaching to pilots over a situation that they themselves created for us all. Pathetic.








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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 02:59
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by No upgrade
… and agree to my new colleagues getting 25% less pay to do my same job. Nice.

At least mainline pilots are consistent over the last two decades. The root cause of gifting QF the JQ, JC, NJS, NWK pilot pay scales to the Australian pilot profession. Never opposed the opportunity to sign off on a short sighted, self indulgent 3% payrise or cash bonus token.

Now they are bewildered why their group is shrinking, and preaching to pilots over a situation that they themselves created for us all. Pathetic.
Read over previous posts in the QF recruitment thread. This has been answered. The LH EBA was signed just as covid hit. They secured a new fleet that was blatantly threatened to be given to another new entity. With covid on the horizon in March 2020 which is when I believe the vote went through then I'd say they did the right thing as one rumour circulating was that AJ demanded to Tino to pull the EBA off them when Covid was on the horizon and lower the conditions further. Word has he refused and that's why he was asked to leave.

And before anyone shoots this down then I'd love to be quoted how many other big wigs at the top in Sydney left the company in 2020 to "save the company money" etc.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 04:03
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by onezeroonethree
...they did the right thing as one rumour circulating was that AJ demanded to Tino to pull the EBA off them when Covid was on the horizon and lower the conditions further...
I'll just leave this here from another thread...

Originally Posted by RealSatoshi
Let's be absolutely CLEAR - Any organisation that initiates a $3.2 billion project and states that the business case for such a project is anchored on a handful of junior employees taking a 17% Pay Cut, is either financially illiterate or most probably opportunistically Lying-Through-Their-Teeth

Imagine Christine Kilpatrick (Royal Melbourne Hospital CEO), telling her Radiographers that she will only buy the latest state-of-the-art INUMAC MRI Scanner if junior nurses agreed to a 17% Pay Cut...

Disgusting - Yes
Originally Posted by CaptainInsaneO
I've been told its best for all Australian pilots to focus on increasing mainline salaries, even if you arent a mainline pilot, as it will eventually pull up everyones salary.
Quite the opposite - you need a strong salary 'push' from below (subsidiaries et al), in order to put a higher floor under mainline salaries and therefore limit the efficiency of farming out work to 'cheaper' entities.

Many will HATE this statement, but the best thing Aussie pilots can do, is to pool their resources into one union so as to present as a solid front during negotiation time - the Americans do this very effectively. It is more difficult for QF IR to threaten (yes, we live in the stone ages) any entity with the scope of farming out their work to another, when the same union represents the other and therefore can put their foot in it.

From what has been said and written...such a shift has started with the reported exponential growth of AFAP (love them or hate them) membership at NAA, this to the detriment of other unions

Good luck to all the guys and girls at NAA.

Last edited by RealSatoshi; 23rd Aug 2023 at 04:34.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 04:49
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Originally Posted by No upgrade
… and agree to my new colleagues getting 25% less pay to do my same job. Nice.

At least mainline pilots are consistent over the last two decades. The root cause of gifting QF the JQ, JC, NJS, NWK pilot pay scales to the Australian pilot profession. Never opposed the opportunity to sign off on a short sighted, self indulgent 3% payrise or cash bonus token.

Now they are bewildered why their group is shrinking, and preaching to pilots over a situation that they themselves created for us all. Pathetic.
What bizarre and incoherent statement.
So is mainline shrinking because they spent 20 years taking “self indulgent” pay rises and bonuses or is it shrinking because they agreed to a 25% pay cut for new S/O’s?

And what exactly can an employee group do to stop their employer buying a competitor and turning it into a subsidiary?

Mainline pilots are the highest paid in the Oz airline industry, that is why Qantas is perpetually trying to diminish or circumvent their contract. They are certainly not at fault for the poor conditions in other carriers and they have no ability to improve them. That job falls to the pilots at those entities, and thankfully it looks like the Network pilots are trying to do just that.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 04:55
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Originally Posted by Beer Baron
That job falls to the pilots at those entities, and thankfully it looks like the Network pilots are trying to do just that.
Network pilots should keep doing PIA until their pay and conditions exceed mainline given the A320 and 737 are practically the same size. Go hard guys/girls!
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 05:29
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​​​​​​​And what exactly can an employee group do to stop their employer buying a competitor and turning it into a subsidiary?
Never sign off without scope clauses.

​​​​​​​Mainline pilots are certainly not at fault for the poor conditions in other carriers and they have no ability to improve them. That job falls to the pilots at those entities
Totally their fault. Those entities would not exist if they had some spine, and thought less about a 3% payrise. Pathetic.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 06:33
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RealSatoshi
I'll just leave this here from another thread...





Quite the opposite - you need a strong salary 'push' from below (subsidiaries et al), in order to put a higher floor under mainline salaries and therefore limit the efficiency of farming out work to 'cheaper' entities.
Pretty sure that bloke was being sarcastic.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 07:30
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Apparently, flying 70-80 hours a month, mainline SH FOs make double what a NA Captain makes 🤯🤯🤯

If NA pilots agree to anything other than an immediate 70-100% pay increase, they’re pretty much condemning their company to fail. Even with a 50% pay rise, there’s no motivation to stay. The place will be gutted by other operators and they’ll be cancelling every second sector.

That’s exactly what has happened at NJS, and now they have no-one to operate all their shiny new jets. Gissing and Safe were probably so proud of what they achieved at NJS with their “Strategic Imperatives” BS - but all it did was condemn NJS to certain failure and will require them to be absorbed into mainline.

The slice and dice/play everyone against each other approach has worked for the last 35 years. But now airlines in Australia need to wake up quick smart to the fact that you either pay and treat your pilots well, or you watch them leave and your company fails.

I think the best outcome here is that NA pilots all vote with their feet and leave. Then mainline will realise they can’t play everyone against each other, and the network pilots get absorbed into mainline with an 01 Jan 2024 seniority number and operate under the SH EBA.

Jetconnect reportedly coming back in house. Probably they’ll have no option but to do the same with the cluster that has become of NJS. Maybe Network will even get absorbed. Alliance massively struggling to retain pilots more than 12 months too. The industrial tactics they’re playing don’t work when there’s a massive demand for pilots. Look at what’s happening in the US majors - the game changed from playing pilots against each other for years, to suddenly each CEO coming out and offering bigger packages than the last to try and keep bums on seats. The same thing is going to happen here.

And if you’re in Network or NJS and on the hold file - you’re never getting a mainline start date - because your current employer is desperately short of pilots as everyone else leaves. You won’t be released. You’d be better off resigning and then calling Q recruitment to change your application to an external. Otherwise, you can spend the next 40 years doing Pilbara returns on your day off for $350.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 07:32
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by No upgrade
Never sign off without scope clauses.

Totally their fault. Those entities would not exist if they had some spine, and thought less about a 3% payrise. Pathetic.
Perhaps you should be called ’No Idea’
Qantas pilots took PIA to protect their flying an over a decade ago and they were shut down by the Federal Government.
As for “not signing off…” well you don’t sign-off on a Workplace Determination, it is enforced on you by the FWC, as ours was.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 08:18
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Signing off on new EBAs for the last 20 years, gifting the company new entities and B scales for a 3% payrise and a cash bonus is NOT enforced upon you. Don’t pretend otherwise.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 08:36
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete

I think the best outcome here is that NA pilots all vote with their feet and leave.
That’s happening at more than a trickle. There might be a few gaping holes in the training department quite soon.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 08:39
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete
Apparently, flying 70-80 hours a month, mainline SH FOs make double what a NA Captain makes 🤯🤯🤯

If NA pilots agree to anything other than an immediate 70-100% pay increase, they’re pretty much condemning their company to fail. Even with a 50% pay rise, there’s no motivation to stay. The place will be gutted by other operators and they’ll be cancelling every second sector.

That’s exactly what has happened at NJS, and now they have no-one to operate all their shiny new jets. Gissing and Safe were probably so proud of what they achieved at NJS with their “Strategic Imperatives” BS - but all it did was condemn NJS to certain failure and will require them to be absorbed into mainline.

The slice and dice/play everyone against each other approach has worked for the last 35 years. But now airlines in Australia need to wake up quick smart to the fact that you either pay and treat your pilots well, or you watch them leave and your company fails.

I think the best outcome here is that NA pilots all vote with their feet and leave. Then mainline will realise they can’t play everyone against each other, and the network pilots get absorbed into mainline with an 01 Jan 2024 seniority number and operate under the SH EBA.

Jetconnect reportedly coming back in house. Probably they’ll have no option but to do the same with the cluster that has become of NJS. Maybe Network will even get absorbed. Alliance massively struggling to retain pilots more than 12 months too. The industrial tactics they’re playing don’t work when there’s a massive demand for pilots. Look at what’s happening in the US majors - the game changed from playing pilots against each other for years, to suddenly each CEO coming out and offering bigger packages than the last to try and keep bums on seats. The same thing is going to happen here.

And if you’re in Network or NJS and on the hold file - you’re never getting a mainline start date - because your current employer is desperately short of pilots as everyone else leaves. You won’t be released. You’d be better off resigning and then calling Q recruitment to change your application to an external. Otherwise, you can spend the next 40 years doing Pilbara returns on your day off for $350.
QF management have openly said there’s no staff shortage at NJS. They’ve got 150+ pilots to crew 16 (and reducing) aircraft and will have even more pilots (internationals) to crew only 7 aircraft next year. NA can be crewed by cadets easily if they get short enough. There’s more then enough people who want to live in Perth to keep that company going.

You’ll often hear crew carry on about Pilot shortages stating ‘they’ll have to offer a bonus soon or they won’t have any crew’. This is complete rubbish, you had your chance to vote down your agreement and you voted it up. Tough luck sunshine. Hopefully NA don’t make the same mistake.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 09:10
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Originally Posted by No upgrade
Signing off on new EBAs for the last 20 years, gifting the company new entities and B scales for a 3% payrise and a cash bonus is NOT enforced upon you. Don’t pretend otherwise.
What cash bonus exactly?

And are you that stupid that you don’t know what happened when mainline pilots got locked out when they DID try and stand up for themselves?
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 09:19
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He's just a troll. He must be. Either that, or he's just an idiot. Most in this country understand what happened. He just likes throwing rocks. Ignore him. We are all better than that.

And to the point of this thread, go for is guys. I wish you the best of luck. Show the pricks you mean business.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 09:36
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The new B Scale SO at ML is 40% drop in max hourly rate (on Airbus only)

Definitely Network deserve substantial pay increase

How many at Network on ML hold file you reckon ?
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 09:56
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Originally Posted by morno
And are you that stupid that you don’t know what happened when mainline pilots got locked out when they DID try and stand up for themselves?
Standing up for yourselves with stupid red ties and making silly PAs you are to be trusted? Pathetic and embarrassing. And stupid.
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