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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 09:29
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cloudsurfng
hang on, aren’t you the biggest user of ‘bin chicken’ on this website?

you’re seriously deluded that’s for sure. No 737 pilots will be scrambling to network. QF won’t close a pilot base, OR force people to leave. It costs them too much. More likely they will let the base shrink in size as people leave the fleet.

seriously, you have no idea about anything.
Mate I reckon it is you that has no idea. The money Qantas would save on salaries in the first year would pay for every mainline pilot to move to the east coast, and then some. Not saying that they would do it but you're seriously deluded if you think the moving costs would stop them
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 09:32
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete
Apparently, flying 70-80 hours a month, mainline SH FOs make double what a NA Captain makes 🤯🤯🤯

If NA pilots agree to anything other than an immediate 70-100% pay increase, they’re pretty much condemning their company to fail. Even with a 50% pay rise, there’s no motivation to stay. The place will be gutted by other operators and they’ll be cancelling every second sector.

That’s exactly what has happened at NJS, and now they have no-one to operate all their shiny new jets. Gissing and Safe were probably so proud of what they achieved at NJS with their “Strategic Imperatives” BS - but all it did was condemn NJS to certain failure and will require them to be absorbed into mainline.

The slice and dice/play everyone against each other approach has worked for the last 35 years. But now airlines in Australia need to wake up quick smart to the fact that you either pay and treat your pilots well, or you watch them leave and your company fails.

I think the best outcome here is that NA pilots all vote with their feet and leave. Then mainline will realise they can’t play everyone against each other, and the network pilots get absorbed into mainline with an 01 Jan 2024 seniority number and operate under the SH EBA.

Jetconnect reportedly coming back in house. Probably they’ll have no option but to do the same with the cluster that has become of NJS. Maybe Network will even get absorbed. Alliance massively struggling to retain pilots more than 12 months too. The industrial tactics they’re playing don’t work when there’s a massive demand for pilots. Look at what’s happening in the US majors - the game changed from playing pilots against each other for years, to suddenly each CEO coming out and offering bigger packages than the last to try and keep bums on seats. The same thing is going to happen here.

And if you’re in Network or NJS and on the hold file - you’re never getting a mainline start date - because your current employer is desperately short of pilots as everyone else leaves. You won’t be released. You’d be better off resigning and then calling Q recruitment to change your application to an external. Otherwise, you can spend the next 40 years doing Pilbara returns on your day off for $350.
JQ are doing the same, not keen on/holding their pilots back from going to QF. They seem to be scared. So you're example is bang on the money.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 09:34
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by No upgrade
Never sign off without scope clauses.



Totally their fault. Those entities would not exist if they had some spine, and thought less about a 3% payrise. Pathetic.
Unfortunately, there is that not-so-minor inconvenience of s172 and s253 of the Fair Work Act.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 11:50
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete
Apparently, flying 70-80 hours a month, mainline SH FOs make double what a NA Captain makes 🤯🤯🤯

If NA pilots agree to anything other than an immediate 70-100% pay increase, they’re pretty much condemning their company to fail. Even with a 50% pay rise, there’s no motivation to stay. The place will be gutted by other operators and they’ll be cancelling every second sector.

That’s exactly what has happened at NJS, and now they have no-one to operate all their shiny new jets. Gissing and Safe were probably so proud of what they achieved at NJS with their “Strategic Imperatives” BS - but all it did was condemn NJS to certain failure and will require them to be absorbed into mainline.

The slice and dice/play everyone against each other approach has worked for the last 35 years. But now airlines in Australia need to wake up quick smart to the fact that you either pay and treat your pilots well, or you watch them leave and your company fails.

I think the best outcome here is that NA pilots all vote with their feet and leave. Then mainline will realise they can’t play everyone against each other, and the network pilots get absorbed into mainline with an 01 Jan 2024 seniority number and operate under the SH EBA.

Jetconnect reportedly coming back in house. Probably they’ll have no option but to do the same with the cluster that has become of NJS. Maybe Network will even get absorbed. Alliance massively struggling to retain pilots more than 12 months too. The industrial tactics they’re playing don’t work when there’s a massive demand for pilots. Look at what’s happening in the US majors - the game changed from playing pilots against each other for years, to suddenly each CEO coming out and offering bigger packages than the last to try and keep bums on seats. The same thing is going to happen here.

And if you’re in Network or NJS and on the hold file - you’re never getting a mainline start date - because your current employer is desperately short of pilots as everyone else leaves. You won’t be released. You’d be better off resigning and then calling Q recruitment to change your application to an external. Otherwise, you can spend the next 40 years doing Pilbara returns on your day off for $350.
Firstly, mainline SH FOs don’t double what a Network Captain makes but you can be assured 737 FOs do earn more than Network Captains, and the majority of 737 Captains would be doubling the income of Network Captains.

As a guess I’ll say the average 737 FO last FY made top right corner 240-250 and the ones who chased got closer to 300.
Captains would be at a minimum in the high 300s if not low 400s. I am aware of 737 skippers who went north of 450.

The 737 is short on FOs. The company needs a way to incentivise people to want to fly it. They’ll offer them something. They’ll find some cheeky way to “get around” the company pay freeze, so expect these quoted numbers to rise in the next year.

You are right. Being an internal is a worse way to get to mainline. Better off quitting, going elsewhere and trying as an external.

I wish I shared your optimism about absorbing the subsidiaries. It’s what all the pilots at mainline would want and I can’t imagine anyone in a subsidiary would oppose it. It would be a big win for all.

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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 11:54
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete
Apparently, flying 70-80 hours a month, mainline SH FOs make double what a NA Captain makes 🤯🤯🤯
That doesn't really pass the BS test though does it?
If the table on the noose threat that Satoshi put up is to go by, a Network F100 Captain is on 175k BASE. The SH basic was quoted as 145k, but double would mean 350k for 70hrs a month.

Can't include allowances, bonuses, super etc etc unless NA captains get zero additional payments to thier base - which I doubt.

Everyone has heard of someone thats achieved a numerical possibility, but to elude to that as the norm while comparing one basic salary to another 'all in' pay is just BS.


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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 11:54
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy
QF management have openly said there’s no staff shortage at NJS. They’ve got 150+ pilots to crew 16 (and reducing) aircraft and will have even more pilots (internationals) to crew only 7 aircraft next year. NA can be crewed by cadets easily if they get short enough. There’s more then enough people who want to live in Perth to keep that company going.

You’ll often hear crew carry on about Pilot shortages stating ‘they’ll have to offer a bonus soon or they won’t have any crew’. This is complete rubbish, you had your chance to vote down your agreement and you voted it up. Tough luck sunshine. Hopefully NA don’t make the same mistake.
Not true. They have admitted they are struggling to crew it.
Goodluck to the cadets. A recent company webinar had management admit that many aren’t getting QLink start dates on the dash due to poor sim performance. Goodluck getting into an F100 or A320.
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Old 23rd Aug 2023, 12:04
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy
You can whinge and carry on about Pilots joining and accepting the Network EA all you want but if they want to live in Perth what other options do they have?

Many don’t meet the puppy patting requirements of Coward street and the rest of the companies based in Perth are less secure jobs. Watch the Qantas 737 Pilots scrabble across to Network when they start downsizing the Perth Maggot base. Plenty of Jetstar and NJS Pilots both were on better conditions and both scrabbled across when faced with unemployment or East Coast relocation.

The best thing we can all do is throw our full support behind the NA Pilots.
Perth has been announced as one of the first two bases along with Sydney to get the XLR.

If what you are saying is true, plus what someone else posted about the cost of relocating everyone to the east coast not being a factor then why haven’t they done that to Adelaide?

They are down sizing the base by a third. No push out. Too costly.

Brisbane hasn’t had a 787 route since pre Covid. There’s still a base and currently no foreseeable route on the 787 out of Brisbane. Every pilot there gets paid 5.5 hrs minimum pay to pax across to another city to operate, and then 5.5 hrs to pax back. That’s 11 hours extra per pattern for multiple years. Even if it’s a one hour hop to Sydney and Back. Why not close the base and re open it once they do have Dreamliners based in Brisbane? Too costly.

Going back to Adelaide. You’d think many of those FOs there would be putting their hand up for secondment to NJS A220. They’re not. Even an a220 command is a pay cut. They won’t sell themselves short. They’ll either commute once they get another base in LH or move cities.
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Old 24th Aug 2023, 01:51
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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It's really encouraging to see the Pilots of the Qantas / Network group finally taking this greedy & opportunistic company on. You have been getting ripped off for years. It will never be QF domestic or even pay as well but paying Pilots less than HALF what a domestic Pilot gets is really unfair & pretty sleazy. It's long overdue to see the hardworking professionals of this operation get proper pay and conditions. Qantas have been taking the piss here for many years & easily getting away with it. Now that they have solid union membership numbers they have a chance. Many of us at QF mainline support you & sincerely hope to see a fair deal for you all. Best wishes to the flight attendants who are about to go on strike too. Surly QF can take a little of the $2,500,000,000 profit you made this year and reward the staff who helped to make that happen, getting out of bed at 0330 to fly essential workers to the Pilbara for less than award wage.
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Old 24th Aug 2023, 02:39
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete;[url=tel:11489659
11489659[/url]]Jetconnect reportedly coming back in house.
Is this actually happening or just a pipe dream?
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Old 24th Aug 2023, 03:34
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Originally Posted by b787q300
Is this actually happening or just a pipe dream?
Pipedream.

First question has to be why would they.
If the answer even starts along the lines of 'because of crewing' then Id counter with saying there are probably more JC not trying to go to mainline than who are.

Nor do I dont think many JC crew are interested in living in Oz. Most logically I suspect the scheduling of trans tas flights with JC crew is alot easier wrt to the early morning departures and rest requirements with NZ based crew (suspect - I have nfi of either operators FRMS or eba requirements in that regard).

The only iota of truth could be that the 737 ceases the tasman flying and the 321s don't see enough orders beyond the intial 20 to operate the Tasman (220s anyone?)
That might ultimately negate the need for JC - who will then be offered redeployment within the group - as we saw with Jetstar regional.

Any of that would be 2030+ stuff and this is Qantas were talking about so there is no way they would have thought that far ahead.
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Old 24th Aug 2023, 03:47
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JC intregration rumour has been floating for close to a year now.

FO turn over is extremely high. They're paid peanuts compared to Mainline pilots.
I have heard it's 1 year for a 737 command at JC versus 18 at mainline.

Too good of a rumour to be true.
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Old 24th Aug 2023, 04:44
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Network is not QF domestic or mainline, but most reasonable people can agree, Network Pilots have been getting ripped off for a long time & the company has been laughing all the way to the bank.
They do a similar job for less than half the pay of a QF domestic Pilot. Now that their EBA is finally due I wish them the very best in striking the best deal possible, ultimately this is advantageous to all of us. Our short haul EBA is up soon and we will be asking for support, just as Sunnies and QLink are, long haul is not far off either and you can bet your nuts they are coming for you too!!!. I for one consider you my colleagues & I wish you the best in taking on these greedy opportunists. I hope you get a slice of the $2,5000,000 profit they just made, partly from your contribution to the group. Getting out of bed at 0330 to fly a Qantas group jet to the Pilbara for less than the award wage is not fair. A 3%pa raise is spitting in your face!
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Old 24th Aug 2023, 10:23
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I for one consider you my colleagues & I wish you the best in taking on these greedy opportunists.
That there is a sentence that will make Airline execs shiver.
Its a shame that for various reasons ( not to be discussed on this thread for fear of creating division) we have more than one Union going into 2024.
Over the next wee while if we can just take a deep breath and 95% of us echo the above sentiment, we will all be much better off. The past is the past, the best way you can stick it to the man is to develop some empathy for all pilots, not just your immediate colleagues.
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Old 24th Aug 2023, 21:35
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Australian pilots have become used to management and IR techniques that create continual downward pressure on terms and conditions within the Industry. Many would not have been adults let alone commercial pilots when ATPL’s carried the advantage of scarcity. I’d just like to point out that the very same systems that drive relentlessly towards labour efficiency can also accommodate, and allow for, changes in the opposite direction. The USA is currently a good example of exactly that and the following article (which is less than a week old) might help shift paradigms around what is possible for pilot groups in Australia over the next few years.
Pilots at American rejected an offer last November. They reached another agreement in late July, which was renegotiated again after United Airlines approved a tentative deal with its pilots. Pilots at Delta Air Lines won big pay raises earlier this year.

Pilots at Southwest Airlines are still in negotiations.

Wage rates for American pilots will rise at least 41% and perhaps more if United pilots ratify their agreement, according to a spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association. David Koenig - AP - Mon Aug 21, 5:13PM CDT
Now is the time for a ‘step change’ but the window won’t be open for ever. The longer a pilot group let’s negotiations drag out before playing hard-ball the greater the risk of the window closing due to war, pandemic, stock market collapse etc etc
There are many agreements coming up for negotiation over the next 18 months. ‘Hard and fast’ should be the Unions new motto.
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Old 24th Aug 2023, 21:39
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Most economists are predicting a recession in the coming 12-18 months so get ready for the next pay freeze!
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Old 24th Aug 2023, 22:04
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Most economists are predicting a recession in the coming 12-18 months so get ready for the next pay freeze!
Hard and fast Sir, Hard and fast.
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 09:24
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QF SH will be there by the end of the year…..
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 10:25
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Originally Posted by A320 Flyer
QF SH will be there by the end of the year…..
I'll believe that when I see it - but I hope you're right!
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 09:45
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So was it true VH flew to Perth today to speak to the Network drivers?
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Old 7th Sep 2023, 11:16
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Network drivers or mining bosses to assure them that their FIFO staff won’t be impacted by any impending PIA.
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