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Old 26th Aug 2020, 05:13
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So, after downloading, printing and reading through the full judgement in Palmer v Western Australia (No4) today, several things are apparent from Justice Rangiah's judgement.

Firstly, and most importantly, it appears Justice Rangiah found essentially in favour of WA in as much as their "hard border" is the singular most effective way to prevent the importation and consequent spread of Covid-19 into WA. Other measures, he wrote, were not as effective as the border closure, even though it had limitations in providing exemptions for certain people. These comments appear to reinforce WA's stance that they will not remove their "hard border" to any state until there is zero community transmission, which the judgement defines as "two incubation periods" totalling 28 days. The reason for that is to prevent "Border hopping" ie NSW-NT-WA when NSW-WA is currently prohibited.

The hearing was conducted with the agreement of all parties as to whether the border restrictions were currently justified (at the time of the hearings) - not whether they were justified when implemented. Notably the hearings were conducted 27-31 July, almost smack in the middle of the Victorian outbreak, and it is notable reading through the judgement that that outbreak - and the flow on one in NSW attributed to it - appeared to heavily influence both the experts opinion and the Justice's thinking.

The judgement was only concerned with the public health aspects of the case - there was no discussion able to consider the social, economic or constitutional aspects of it. That'll come later with Clive going to the High Court to continue his s.92 challenge, though I can foresee that being a bit harder now the Federal Court has found the Border Closures, essentially, justifiable.

The other notable thing from reading the judgement was it appeared - to me at least - to focus almost entirely on the absolute worst-case outcome should Covid-19 1. Be imported into WA and 2. be allowed to run rampant with community transmission. This is despite the judgement also finding WA has strong surveillance and testing systems, and has been successful in containing outbreaks in the past. (Pg. 67 [296]) which would appear more reasonable given what has gone on elsewhere, in NSW and Qld for example.


Food for thought should Clive lose his s.92 case and you want to go to WA anytime until a vaccine is found.......
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 06:52
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I don't think Clive Palmer should get any tax payers money.

That is what he is trying for when he attempts to sue a government.

The public purse is not a slush fund for Mr Palmer to dip into whenever he feels the need to refinance.
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 08:33
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Devil

Re - # 1051 - 'NO football for the whole state next year, not one game...' .
WA has a very nice new stadium, thankyou, full capacity around 60K bodies, or around 30K with 'virus separation'. Still MORE than any other avbl. (?)

Put ALL teams into a 'bubble' in WA, and play ALL games over 'ere.....for the foreseeable future.
A lot (most) of the players get paid VERY well, thankyou, so THAT should stop the whingers who want to stay 'home with mum'.....
Wot's it to be luv? Me or the $'s..?? Standing by for answers to that.........

CHEERRRSSS.....

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Old 26th Aug 2020, 08:47
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Originally Posted by currawong View Post
I don't think Clive Palmer should get any tax payers money. That is what he is trying for when he attempts to sue a government.

The public purse is not a slush fund for Mr Palmer to dip into whenever he feels the need to refinance.
Maybe not. But, when the WA Government rushed through that bill last week in an attempt to legislate their way out of mediation with Mineralogy my spidey senses started tingling. I'm tipping there's a better than even chance of him being awarded quite a few $$ and the WA Government knew that and tried to worm their way out of it. If they were so sure they were "right", why the legislation at all? Why the paranoia about getting it signed off before Clive could ratify his ruling in a Qld court....
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Old 26th Aug 2020, 09:28
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Originally Posted by KRviator View Post
Maybe not. But, when the WA Government rushed through that bill last week in an attempt to legislate their way out of mediation with Mineralogy my spidey senses started tingling. I'm tipping there's a better than even chance of him being awarded quite a few $$ and the WA Government knew that and tried to worm their way out of it. If they were so sure they were "right", why the legislation at all? Why the paranoia about getting it signed off before Clive could ratify his ruling in a Qld court....
I agree. If someone is legally owed money due to a government decision, government should not be able to introduce legislation blocking that from occurring. That government has done so is as good as admitting guilt that the monies were originally owed.

Replace the figure of Clive Palmer with Glen Buckley's situation... it doesn't pass the pub test!
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 04:43
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Potential covid treatments are being patronisingly dismissed. Sutton and Andrews smirk their way when it comes to these questions
at the press conferences. These present drugs could save all age care deaths by a third. That is not just coming from Bolt but a lot of doctors out their.
Wether you like him or don't check out his sky report last night, it's on the tube. What currawong said at post #1054 and I said at #776 is now being splurged on TV networks.
I can even see a law suit coming on against the gov due to all these deaths. All started with hotel quarantine. Can be done. Erin Brockovich won.
If it wasn't for the Victorian debacle domestic airline ops would be at 60/70/80% by now. The borders would be open (even the WA one) and no lockdowns
anywhere except age care.


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Old 27th Aug 2020, 05:30
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Originally Posted by Turnleft080 View Post
Potential covid treatments are being patronisingly dismissed. Sutton and Andrews smirk their way when it comes to these questions
at the press conferences. These present drugs could save all age care deaths by a third. That is not just coming from Bolt but a lot of doctors out their.
Wether you like him or don't check out his sky report last night, it's on the tube.
I did. Bolt is still a snake oil salesman.

The Belgian Study he touts as an example of HCQ success had a non-HCQ group that was a median of 11 years older than the HCQ group, and had higher rates of co-morbidities like smoking and CVD. So not too earth shattering and not an unbiased study which is why the scientific community has not changed their opinion on HCQ.

Ivermectin? No valuable clinical trials have been concluded so anyone touting it as a miracle cure at this point is time is selling unproven snake oil. Here's a Professor of Pharmacology (he may know what he's talking about) explaining some of the limitations of that particular treatment.

I love how Bolt sneers down on the National COVID task force director's qualifications, "he's just an Associate Professor (and the Head of Clinical Research in the Department of Infectious Diseases at Monash University)" and chastises the Medical Chiefs for "overlooking the role of Zinc and Ivermectin" (the debunking link above was from a Clinical and Experimental Pharmacology Researcher and Head of Pharmacy at Uni of Sydney, I think he would know that Zinc exists, Andrew).

Last edited by dr dre; 27th Aug 2020 at 05:53.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 05:45
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Originally Posted by Turnleft080 View Post
If it wasn't for the Victorian debacle domestic airline ops would be at 60/70/80% by now. The borders would be open (even the WA one) and no lockdowns
anywhere except age care.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing mate. While the victorian debacle is unfortunate no doubt, it has identified the 17% that couldn't care less about the pandemic and more than happy to share it around. That alone would have made containment within the nation impossible. We know that 17% are in every state, so we in the unaffected states are grateful to victoria for exposing that weakness.
That issue alone will keep our borders closed for a while yet.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 06:14
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https://www.magic.co.nz/home/news/20...who-speci.html

The WHO is now suggesting less restrictive lockdowns, that NZ should consider some sort of modified Swedish approach, and that countries have to come to terms with living with the virus.

Seems odd given the purported success of lockdowns in China. Unless of course they were not so successful after all
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 06:27
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Originally Posted by slats11 View Post
The WHO is now suggesting less restrictive lockdowns, that NZ should consider some sort of modified Swedish approach, and that countries have to come to terms with living with the virus.

Seems odd given the purported success of lockdowns in China. Unless of course they were not so successful after all
The difference is that in China anyone breaching the laws will be beaten, locked up or killed, or all three. The residents take government directions seriously.

Edit: China has disclosed occasional cases when detected, after restrictions were lifted.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 06:40
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So in the last 4 posts we have a snake oil salesman, 17% think the pandemic is a myth, lets do a Sweden, beatings, lock ups and killings.
Put all these in a blender and we might get a new road to a pathway in Dan's speech in 2 weeks.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 06:50
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It’s not a myth.

But elimination and simply wishing it away os not a valid strategy. No country has eliminated this.

as we learn more, our strategy needs to evolve. With no good options, we are left with identifying the least bad.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 07:42
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Is anyone able to share the science as to how parasite treatments potentially work as an anti-viral?

Not knocking anything, just having trouble understanding the concept as the target and mode of action are quite different.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 07:59
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In addition to its anti malarial effects, HQ has anti-inflammatory effects (mainly through reduced cytokines production) and hence is used by rheumatologist as a 2nd line drug for a variety of conditioned.

It may also have some antiviral activity (cytokines again, but multiple additional postulated Mechanisms). These effects can be observed at high concentrations in lab tests, but it is not clear these mechanisms are significant at concentrations safely achieved in clinical use. Bleach and 70% alcohol also work in lab.
https://pmj.bmj.com/content/early/20...dj-2020-137785

However the current best evidence (Recovery trial) is that it’s not helpful for COVID.
https://www.recoverytrial.net/

Last edited by slats11; 27th Aug 2020 at 09:06.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 10:40
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https://www.newcastleherald.com.au/s...train/?cs=6157


This is one reason why elimination is most likely not achievable. It is so subtle, and it’s peak infectivity is 1 day prior to symptoms appearing.

Many people don’t get symptoms at all. How can you eliminate something you can’t detect?
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 13:47
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Originally Posted by slats11 View Post
In addition to its anti malarial effects, HQ has anti-inflammatory effects (mainly through reduced cytokines production) and hence is used by rheumatologist as a 2nd line drug for a variety of conditioned.

It may also have some antiviral activity (cytokines again, but multiple additional postulated Mechanisms). These effects can be observed at high concentrations in lab tests, but it is not clear these mechanisms are significant at concentrations safely achieved in clinical use. Bleach and 70% alcohol also work in lab.
https://pmj.bmj.com/content/early/20...dj-2020-137785

However the current best evidence (Recovery trial) is that itís not helpful for COVID.
https://www.recoverytrial.net/
Thanks, slats11.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 22:33
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Originally Posted by Turnleft080 View Post
Potential covid treatments are being patronisingly dismissed. Sutton and Andrews smirk their way when it comes to these questions
at the press conferences. These present drugs could save all age care deaths by a third. That is not just coming from Bolt but a lot of doctors out their.
Wether you like him or don't check out his sky report last night, it's on the tube. What currawong said at post #1054 and I said at #776 is now being splurged on TV networks.
I can even see a law suit coming on against the gov due to all these deaths. All started with hotel quarantine. Can be done. Erin Brockovich won.
If it wasn't for the Victorian debacle domestic airline ops would be at 60/70/80% by now. The borders would be open (even the WA one) and no lockdowns
anywhere except age care.
Isnt covid treatment/vaccine a federal govt issue??
Im sure i saw scomo at the astrazeneca plant recently big noting himself,that was just before he came out & said the vaccine would be compulsory & then in the next breath reversed that decision.
Of course the hotel quarantine is a stuff up as is the aged care but aged care is federally funded & should be controlled properly by them however they have seen fit to continue to underfund it & turn it into the circus it now is.
Scomo apologised for it the other day but no action announced,he needs to fix it now rather than tell us they are looking into it.
Maybe decent pay & proper training might be a start but that would go against his union bashing & casualisation of the workforce agenda,no wonder the big business leaders continually praise him.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 22:35
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Originally Posted by blubak View Post
Isnt covid treatment/vaccine a federal govt issue??
Im sure i saw scomo at the astrazeneca plant recently big noting himself,that was just before he came out & said the vaccine would be compulsory & then in the next breath reversed that decision.
Of course the hotel quarantine is a stuff up as is the aged care but aged care is federally funded & should be controlled properly by them however they have seen fit to continue to underfund it & turn it into the circus it now is.
Scomo apologised for it the other day but no action announced,he needs to fix it now rather than tell us they are looking into it.
Maybe decent pay & proper training might be a start but that would go against his union bashing & casualisation of the workforce agenda,no wonder the big business leaders continually praise him.
Well said.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 23:05
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Originally Posted by blubak View Post
Isnt covid treatment/vaccine a federal govt issue??
Im sure i saw scomo at the astrazeneca plant recently big noting himself,that was just before he came out & said the vaccine would be compulsory & then in the next breath reversed that decision.
That was right before announcing Australia had secured a vaccine supply, only to be later told it was a letter of intent, and that CSL may not have the manufacturing capabilities for this yet-to-be-invented vaccine anyway. He did come from marketing, right?
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 23:37
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Hopefully these idiotic premiers out their personal career aspirations aside for one minute and put the people/ country first! WA FIFO workers are being affected with ships pilots running short and Mcgowen demanding they live in WA so the resource set core could be short of workers if it keeps going and QLD denied a pregnant women entry for emergency surgery which resulted in one of the two twins dying as they had to fly to Sydney.
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