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Old 28th Aug 2020, 10:41
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Let's reopen Port Arthur, Pentridge and Corowa
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 12:01
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Originally Posted by Stickshift3000 View Post
There are currently many knowledge gaps in this unfortunate story; I'm absolutely not downplaying the significance of this at all.
Most of the information seems to have come from a call in to a talkback radio station from the patient's father. It's a sad situation but some things aren't so accurate. For instance it would not have taken 16 hours for a medevac flight to Sydney to be arranged in an emergency case.

How, and at what stage, was the quarantine exemption requested (prior to the emergency?
It wasn't. Clinicians from RPA in Sydney were consulted and the decision was made to do the surgery in Sydney so no need to apply for a quarantine exemption (they would not have needed anyway because it was an emergency case)

Did NSW Health try and take the patient to Qld - why not?
It won't be known for privacy reasons but that must have been the assessment of local medical staff at the time.

Did the patient go through the correct avenues (at the right time) to get taken to Brisbane?
They wouldn't have needed too, because it was an emergency case no quarantine restrictions (as confirmed by the Qld Chief Health Officer). But Qld Health have also confirmed no request was sought from the patient.

It's a sad situation but there is nothing in this story that was the fault of any government for instituting border restrictions (which do not apply if it is an emergency medical case). It has been misrepresented by the media, and seized upon by those looking for a political angle.

Originally Posted by lc_461 View Post
Without knowing the details, it is possible that a miscommunication or misconception that 'QLD is closed' led to the decision that QLD is not an option.
It's been known that essential medical care is exempt from border restrictions when the restrictions were instituted. I'm sure the medical staff in NSW close to Qld know far more about this than the posters on this forum.

My guess is they made an assessment that the situation was not critical enough to warrant a medevac so a lower priority transfer was arranged. Unfortunately the situation deteriorated after the patient made it to Sydney.

Last edited by dr dre; 28th Aug 2020 at 12:23.
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 20:51
  #1083 (permalink)  
 
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You guys can stop blaming our premiers for closed borders, they are doing what we the citizens of the state (83%) want them to do and that's close the borders quarantine the infected.
Medical advice has nothing to do with our borders, we have listened to the arguments and conclude it's still high risk because we know the remaining 17% won't help contain the pandemic, they don't give a shit, if your 17% infects our 17% our state will fall just the same as Victoria.
Before we agree to open our borders one of two things must happen, a vaccine or a quick test similar to the lick drug test that can identify an infected person within minutes. That will change how we manage the virus and our borders.
About Canberra and funding. The states fund Canberra by way of taxes, Canberra doesn't produce anything it's a cost and good at borrowing money that the states have to pay for.

The Good news.
The vaccine developed in South Australia is going well and exceeds expectations.
What we know
It works
What we don't know
For how long it will work, it must be good for at least 9 months and ideally 12 months.
The vaccines efficacy. No vaccine is 100% effective, (they don't work for everyone) but must be in the high 90's%
Whether or not there are any health risks as a consequence of the vaccine.

The vaccine should be ready for production by April 2021, provided it passes all the required tests. It will still take 12 months to distribute and vaccinate most of the population.

From what I understand, I would anticipate a change in border controls by mid 2021, most likely (hopefully) due to a quick test becoming available. everyone is working on it.

Finally; no-one wants the borders closed any longer than necessary, that said and as it applies to the Airlines, no-one is rushing off on holidays when the border opens either
One shouldn't have the expectation that once the borders are open domestic travel will return to 100%, there will still be a way to go for international travel including cruising.
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 20:53
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This tragedy will get messy as more is revealed. Those words spoken by Anastasia last week regarding QLD hospitals are for QLD people have come back to haunt her.

Mum told to head south: doctor

EXCLUSIVE

NATASHA ROBINSON
NSW doctors treating a pregnant woman whose twin babies needed urgent surgery claim senior clinicians at Queensland’s Mater Hospital told them that “given the political situation” of border closures the mother should be transported 750km south to Sydney rather than be operated on in Brisbane.

A political row over border closures has gained intensity after it emerged that one of the twin girls carried by Ballina mother Kimberley Brown died after intrauterine surgery performed by doctors at the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in Sydney.

On August 13, an obstetrician at Lismore Base Hospital in northern NSW spoke with the director of maternal fetal medicine at the Mater Hospital and discussed Ms Brown’s urgent need for surgery. Lismore paediatrician Chris Ingall, who sits on the executive of the medical staff council at Lismore Base Hospital and has spoken directly with Ms Brown’s treating obstetricians, said the case was agreed by all clinicians to be urgent.

“The Mater Hospital agreed it was an urgent case but they said given the political situation the woman needed to be sent to Sydney,” Dr Ingall said.

Mater denies the claim. “We didn’t deny access and always were happy to provide care if RPA weren’t able to do so,” a spokesperson said.

Patients requiring emergency medical care are allowed to be treated in Queensland hospitals despite the border closure, but Dr Ingall said that in practice, doctors were facing bureaucratic barriers to getting patients urgent care.

“We at this point here are totally bamboozled by the answers we’re getting from both the governments and also the hospitals,” Dr Ingall said. “Because we need to get a double tick. We need to get a tick on both the bureaucratic and political masters and also the health administrators that cases are an emergency. So we’ve got no way of telling what is going to happen.”

The Northern NSW Local Health District said surgery in Brisbane would not have been a feasible option because Ms Brown would have been required to quarantine in Queensland for 14 days before having surgery.

Queensland Health says, however, that emergency cases receive urgent care. It’s unclear whether Ms Brown’s case qualified as an emergency despite doctors on both sides of the border agreeing the situation was urgent.

“While the preferred location for the family to give birth was at a hospital in Brisbane, under the Queensland Border Direction at the time, the woman and her partner would have had to quarantine in a government hotel for 14 days, at their own expense, prior the procedure,” said Northern NSW Local Health District chief executive Wayne Jones.”

Ms Brown’s babies, which at the time were 24 weeks’ gestation, were affected by twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome, in which twins share one placenta and the blood flow of one baby is channelled through the other. Ms Brown required highly specialised intra-uterine surgery that could only be performed in Sydney or Brisbane.

“The twin that’s giving blood to the other twin doesn’t grow as well. So that’s what was happening here and it was being closely monitored,” Dr Ingall said.

“But it got to a point where the smaller twin was in jeopardy. And the surgery requires actually in utero surgery to stop the twin-totwin transfusion from occurring.”

Ms Brown and her husband Scott remain in Sydney as doctors monitor the progress of the surviving twin. Ms Brown’s father, Allan Watt, told The Weekend Australian he had “done nothing but cry for the last 24 hours”.

“The other bub is struggling along and they want to keep her in the womb until she’s 28 weeks,” he said. “If they had both been at 28 weeks there would have been a fair chance of saving the other bub, but she was just too young to be born.”

Mr Watt, who is in Ballina while his wife and daughter are in Sydney, said their family had been “divided” by border closures and travel restrictions. Despite the Queensland health department saying exemptions were not necessary in emergency cases, it is understood the family was told that a medical exemption was needed for Ms Brown to cross the border.

“They took the option to go to Sydney because it would take too long to get an exemption,” Mr Watt said.

Mr Watt said his daughter waited at Lismore Base Hospital for 16 hours before she was flown by air ambulance to RPA to undergo emergency surgery. Mr Brown took a Jetstar flight to Sydney and arrived there 10 hours before an air retrieval flight carrying his wife landed at 1am.

Dr Ingall said it was not possible to determine whether Ms Brown’s baby would have survived if she had received surgery sooner in Brisbane. “It is possible that if she’d been quickly transferred to Brisbane, she may have had a better outcome. That’s a possibility.”
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 23:28
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Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
From what I understand, I would anticipate a change in border controls by mid 2021, most likely (hopefully) due to a quick test becoming available. everyone is working on it.
That timeframe seems realistic.

This Aussie company has developed a rapid 15-minute test, it's around 6-9 months away due to patient trials and regulatory approval:

https://www.anteotech.com/covid-19/
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 23:57
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Originally Posted by lc_461 View Post
Or maybe it was OK for the patient to go, but not her spouse (how do you console your wife who just lost a child from your 14 days of hotel quarantine?).


I'm not political but the comments last week "QLD hospitals are for queenslanders" was just pathetic... I didn't realise the state governments were funding Medicare!!!!
A recent SBS show on migration to Australia had partner visa application that had the couple separated in different countries for 4 years, race off to the bathroom to overdose after the visa was refused. Luckily the film crew reacted quickly. These applications are very hash and often have long periods of separation of families - the government know this and are happy with it being normal.

As for hospital funding - Public hospitals are funded by the state, territory and Australian governments, and managed by state and territory governments.

Almost 68% of total health expenditure during 201314 was funded by governments, with the Australian Government contributing 41% and state and territory governments nearly 27%.

But yes her comment was pathetic.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 00:13
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KRviator -

Why not quote the rest of the article that you link?

"Asked by Commonwealth Solicitor-General Stephen Donaghue QC if his advice to keep the border closed was based on an assumption he had to work on and all-or-nothing approach, Dr Robertson agreed "

“But the other risk is that you would then become dependent on the decisions of another state for them opening their borders, so if they opened their borders, then people could pass through the state into your state without restriction.”

Despite the small risk, his advise is to remain closed.


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Old 29th Aug 2020, 01:31
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The only reason why you would close a border is not allow the clingons attack you and annihilate the whole human race.
I do believe though we have homo sapiens on each side of the border of the same species.
Covid is not as bad as Clingons. Clingons will kill all 26 million of us. Covid will only kill a minuscule of people with serious underlying
conditions. The only other reason to close a border is to catch a criminal on the run.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 01:36
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In June 2019 14.7% of all Australian Workers were aged between 55 -64 years, another 4.7% were over 65 years - almost 20% of the work force.

Healthcare is one of the largest industries with an older workforce.

Protecting the vulnerable, opening up and just living with it - would be an interesting project - lots of lost talent.

https://www.aigrouptalent.com.au/wp-...force-2019.pdf
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 02:14
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Originally Posted by Turnleft080 View Post
Covid will only kill a minuscule of people with serious underlying
conditions.
Several groups of Australians are at higher risk than the general population of being infected with COVID-19 and a higher risk than the general population of developing severe symptoms once infected.
* Older Australians: starting at age 60, there is an increasing risk of disease , and this risk increases with age. The highest risk of serious illness and death is in people older than 80.

* People with compromised immune systems and/or existing chronic health conditions: these existing conditions, like diabetes, heart disease, lung disease, and autoimmune conditions. can make it harder for peoples's immune systems to fight the virus.

* Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are at risk because of the higher rate of conditions in these populations.

* People living in group residential settings such as detention facilities and aged care facilities, where infections can spread quickly.

https://ama.com.au/article/latest-information-covid-19

In 2016 - 21.4% of the population were 60 or over (and growing).
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 02:44
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Originally Posted by Turnleft080 View Post
The only reason why you would close a border is not allow the clingons attack you and annihilate the whole human race.
I do believe though we have homo sapiens on each side of the border of the same species.
Covid is not as bad as Clingons. Clingons will kill all 26 million of us. Covid will only kill a minuscule of people with serious underlying
conditions. The only other reason to close a border is to catch a criminal on the run.
Turnleft my old mate, how many times do I have to tell you it's not about dying. If we lost the number of medical staff you have, that would collapse our entire health system and unlike us you wouldn't be able to send anyone to help. Not that there are too many putting their hands up for that.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 02:56
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Bend a lot, what your saying in last two posts is pretty much what I said in #776.
80% of us can get working now. 20% lockdown.
Here is another thing about borders. If every state/territory registered say 20 cases each then we are all on a level playing field.
What difference does it make. The only difference is if the aliens attack. Then all the states would then work together. Far fetched yeah but the principle
is interesting. Funny that.
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 03:18
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Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
Turnleft my old mate, how many times do I have to tell you it's not about dying. If we lost the number of medical staff you have, that would collapse our entire health system and unlike us you wouldn't be able to send anyone to help. Not that there are too many putting their hands up for that.
Ah ha Xeptu my old mate. The health system has already collapsed. Read in an article 50% not bothering to go to GPs/hospitals to do check ups on heart/cancer other conditions.
Apparently heart disease and cancer have fallen off the map. Your saying April for a Covid vax. That's when their will be a spike with all other diseases.
Still think clingons are a greater threat.

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Old 29th Aug 2020, 03:19
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The problem with that is that 20 cases can become 100 cases literally overnight. See definition of "exponential".

A national framework defining a "hotspot " may go some way to helping the situation, but then the problem becomes one of enforcement.

Case in point with VIC.

Toughest and earliest but let down by enforcement of said measures.

Personally, I'm all for using the same measures as Taiwan.

But the time to move on that was Dec.31 2019, like Taiwan.

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Old 29th Aug 2020, 04:02
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Originally Posted by Turnleft080 View Post
Bend a lot, what your saying in last two posts is pretty much what I said in #776.
80% of us can get working now. 20% lockdown.
Here is another thing about borders. If every state/territory registered say 20 cases each then we are all on a level playing field.
What difference does it make. The only difference is if the aliens attack. Then all the states would then work together. Far fetched yeah but the principle
is interesting. Funny that.
No quite - that is just 20% of the work force not 20% of the population. (non workers and workers under 60 with health conditions,severe obesity etc diabetes is 1.25 million people alone up to 54 years old)

They not only need protection if they were singled out for "lockdown" but they also need to be replaced in the workforce.

2016 in the medical workforce 33.7% males and 17.8% females were 55 years or older.

A quick look across the top end of Australia finds 2 hospitals with ICU beds, both with similar numbers of patients and bed numbers in 2018/19. Cairns reported being over capacity, so Darwin would be similar. Both this time of year attract lots of tourists. Excepting 20 cases in the North would make a level playing field - does not pass the pub test.

I am interested in how your idea of "isolating the vulnerable" would actually entail such as what isolation would consist of, how services are supplied, what the compensation would look like (or the age discrimination lawsuits from Clive, Gina & Twiggy) given you can not discriminate by age in the workplace. Also how the hospitals would hope with a second/third wave as people other than vulnerable still get sick with this.

Currently in many places (in Australia) travel is possible even if a 2 week isolation or quarantine is required (not always the case) then movement is pretty normal - should there never be a vaccine how long would your age lock-down last indefinite? Given retirement age is 66 and vulnerable age starts at 60, not a lot of incentive for people near 50 to work - Sell the house, the cars, the kids and live it up before lock-down.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 01:36
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Well this is responsible of people!

On
Friday, NSW Health data revealed half of those who have tested positive took three days to self-isolate.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 03:01
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Originally Posted by Turnleft080 View Post
The only other reason to close a border is to catch a criminal on the run.
Well there you go, the 17% that don't give a shit about infecting other people and are happy to lie, cheat, abscond, cross a state border and attempt to disappear into the community are exactly that. Criminals on the run.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 03:11
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......and then everyone in Melbourne went to the friggin beach!

Muppets!
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 06:07
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/h...s-testing.html

This is interesting.

The PCR tests can be extremely sensitive at detecting COVID virus. So sensitive they can test sewage to see if there are infected people in a city.

The PCR amplifies the viral RNA with each cycle. You can run as many cycles as you want in order to crank up the sensitivity. The fewer cycles required to turn positive, the more virus on the swab. The more cycles required to turn positive, the less virus on the swab.

Looks like no one in USA has agreed how many cycles constituted a real positive (who may get sick and may infect others) from someone with minuscule traces of virus that pose zero risk.

Most experts suggest the test should be limited to 30 cycles.

But most tests do 40 cycles.

If you stopped after 30 cycles and called the test negative, 90 % of current positive results would be negative. So USA would have 4000 meaningful infections each day rather than 45,000 cases.

This helps explain all the asymptomatic cases - the test is repeated until it turns positive, even though most of these positives won’t get sick.

It also means we have been quarantining and isolating many people who are not going to get sick and who won’t infect others.

If China are still
testing, maybe they have set a much lower cycle threshold. And thats why numbers are way down there.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 07:00
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China does not count positives tests that remain asymptomatic.

"The tally of confirmed cases was further suppressed, with the Government initially not including clinical diagnoses and later excluding people who test positive without symptoms.

But public pressure helped forced China's National Health Commission to rectify those omissions, even though it continues to exclude asymptomatic cases from the headline daily figure of cases."


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-...overy/12594828
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