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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 06:52
  #4201 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
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In 2019 prior to any COVID there were 250 deaths due to influenza in Australia. Was there a need for lockdowns, border closures, or daily briefings from politicians? NO. At what point do we accept that life has some risk attached to it and we re evaluate this current chicken little stance and get on with life? Imagine that contact tracing and snap lockdowns were used to manage a flu? It wouldn’t be tolerated yet here we are still being managed to the point of irrelevance by bureaucrats and politicians over this “Pandemic” that doesn’t exist. COVID disease is worse than the flu don’t get me wrong but with vaccination and heard immunity it will become just another bloody lurgy. The chance of someone becoming severely ill or dying from it will be statistically similar to that of the flu if not less than.

The CDC has just announced that international travellers from the USA, that have been completely vaccinated and waited the minimum time from their last vaccination, are free to travel. Upon return to the USA there is now no longer a requirement to quarantine or self isolate. I wonder how long we will have to wait for similar mature policy to evolve or will we continue to be treated as the diseased, not to be trusted. In the next few weeks most Australian based international crew will have been fully vaccinated. Will Australia treat us the same way as the CDC treat their crew? I think not.

Professor Whitty from the UK gives any disease and societal impositions context.
.

Last edited by Troo believer; 3rd Apr 2021 at 07:04.
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 07:14
  #4202 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by cynphil View Post
Although itís interesting that there hasnít been reports of blood clotting with the Pfizer vaccine, it appears from reports just the AZ vaccine!!
There have been Thrombosis events reported after administering the Pfizer vaccine.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ysis_Print.pdf

Alas, that doesn't suit the narrative of those that are reporting the AZ statistics so they conveniently omit those details. It must be made patently clear, at this stage these events are currently mere statistics. There is currently no traceable link that the vaccine's have resulted in the clotting. I'd like to hope that the scientists are furiously investigating whether it is causal or coincidence.
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 07:37
  #4203 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Originally Posted by Troo believer View Post
At what point do we accept that life has some risk attached to it and we re evaluate this current chicken little stance and get on with life?
You've answered that question yourself in your own post:

COVID disease is worse than the flu don’t get me wrong but with vaccination and heard (herd) immunity it will become just another bloody lurgy.
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 09:43
  #4204 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Originally Posted by Fonz121 View Post
There are 30,000 blood clots in Australia in any given year. During the year where we will be vaccinating a large percentage of the population, Iím sure there will be plenty of blood clots in people who also happened to have had the vaccine. Doesnít mean anything.
Doesnít suit the narrative though - this kind of logic will never be allowed!
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 10:17
  #4205 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
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I agree that the incidence of blood clots in general after the Oxford-AZ jab seems to mirror what you'd expect in the same unvaccinated population over the same time, but the rare kind of clotting event, the CVST, seems to be over represented in the data.

The risk is still minuscule compared to the virus, less than shark attacks for surfers/divers, about the same as lightning strike deaths. Much less chance of dying than winning a lottery.

As far as herd immunity goes: even the sober scientists at the CDC suggest that more than 70% of the population has to be vaccinated for herd immunity to begin in the USA. Same for Europe. Here, where even a single case triggers panic, you have to expect that total elimination is the only way we can ever again enjoy a robust aviation industry free from the snap lock-downs. That means, by extension, that we are going to need an almost total vaccination uptake. Since that isnít going to happen without serious coercion, I wonder if the government has mapped out a strategy to force vaccinations regardless of whatever superstitions people harbour?

Since the Premiers want a zero-risk Covid response, the only way to avoid more lockdowns is a zero-risk population, which means a 100% immunity program. Otherwise, we are going to be closed to retail international travel forever. Unless of course the various governments re-educate the public about the balance of risks and accept say a flu-like mortality rate.

Anecdotally I have had my AZ jab, and have detected no &$(6z$$d covfefe.

On edit: Ahhh! I smell toast!
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 10:31
  #4206 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
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The only thing this has made me realise is that most numpty’s in this country have no idea about statistics and probability. Maybe Mathematics should be emphasised more in the curriculum? Basically what the media have been crapping on about in the last 2 days is exactly the same as a person standing under a tree in a storm and whinging they got struck by lightning. It’s pretty much the same probability.
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 11:38
  #4207 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
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If a country removes all restrictions on distancing, masks and testing, the unvaccinated cohort, if subsequently infected, will suffer the same proportional fate that we see now: about 2% die, about 30% have some long tern ill effects, and some fraction of those have a disability. The same bleak outlook that informed our response a year ago remains in play, although with a reduced rate of infection.

I have a few problems with people choosing not to immunised.:They will all eventually burden the health care system to one degree or another. Some will eventually burden the long term care system. Some (after the inevitable sporadic infections) will prevent reliable freedom of movement across borders because of the predictable political response. There will be the attendant economic losses in the travel and hospitality industries that will go unpunished. The subset of the population that is unvaccinated will become a political constituency that may shape policy to the detriment of the greater good. The degree of herd immunity we will accept must must must reflect the degree of vaccine uptake that the will demand of our neighbours. If we as a nation demand a 100% covid safe life then we must demand of each other a 100% immunity. Same as polio, same as small pox. The cost may end up being ten lives lost. The individual risks remain tiny, and should be discussed that way. Few people seem able (or schooled) to perceive risk or chance accurately.
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 14:36
  #4208 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
I agree that the incidence of blood clots in general after the Oxford-AZ jab seems to mirror what you'd expect in the same unvaccinated population over the same time, but the rare kind of clotting event, the CVST, seems to be over represented in the data.

The risk is still minuscule compared to the virus, less than shark attacks for surfers/divers, about the same as lightning strike deaths. Much less chance of dying than winning a lottery.

As far as herd immunity goes: even the sober scientists at the CDC suggest that more than 70% of the population has to be vaccinated for herd immunity to begin in the USA. Same for Europe. Here, where even a single case triggers panic, you have to expect that total elimination is the only way we can ever again enjoy a robust aviation industry free from the snap lock-downs. That means, by extension, that we are going to need an almost total vaccination uptake. Since that isnít going to happen without serious coercion, I wonder if the government has mapped out a strategy to force vaccinations regardless of whatever superstitions people harbour?

Since the Premiers want a zero-risk Covid response, the only way to avoid more lockdowns is a zero-risk population, which means a 100% immunity program. Otherwise, we are going to be closed to retail international travel forever. Unless of course the various governments re-educate the public about the balance of risks and accept say a flu-like mortality rate.

Anecdotally I have had my AZ jab, and have detected no &$(6z$$d covfefe.

On edit: Ahhh! I smell toast!
Ridiculous, the government can't force vaccinations. Unless you would like Australia to model itself on China? We're already a nanny state before this whole COVID business. Gee Australian's have become real apathetic pussies.
If you're not at risk, why get vaccinated? Look at the demographics where COVID has the most serious effects. Those already close to or exceeding the average life expectancy. Gee if I was living in a nursing home right now (family visiting once a week if I'm lucky, laying in my own shit for hours, surrounded by other old grogan's) I would be licking every light switch hoping to catch the bug to put me out of my misery.
So let's get on with it. Let those who want the vaccine get it and those that don't and accept a level of risk, get back to normal life.
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 19:42
  #4209 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
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And there you have it. Ignorance and selfishness in the guise of freedumb. Q.E.D.
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 22:05
  #4210 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Sydney
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
If a country removes all restrictions on distancing, masks and testing, the unvaccinated cohort, if subsequently infected, will suffer the same proportional fate that we see now: about 2% die, about 30% have some long tern ill effects, and some fraction of those have a disability. The same bleak outlook that informed our response a year ago remains in play, although with a reduced rate of infection.

I have a few problems with people choosing not to immunised.:They will all eventually burden the health care system to one degree or another. Some will eventually burden the long term care system. Some (after the inevitable sporadic infections) will prevent reliable freedom of movement across borders because of the predictable political response. There will be the attendant economic losses in the travel and hospitality industries that will go unpunished. The subset of the population that is unvaccinated will become a political constituency that may shape policy to the detriment of the greater good. The degree of herd immunity we will accept must must must reflect the degree of vaccine uptake that the will demand of our neighbours. If we as a nation demand a 100% covid safe life then we must demand of each other a 100% immunity. Same as polio, same as small pox. The cost may end up being ten lives lost. The individual risks remain tiny, and should be discussed that way. Few people seem able (or schooled) to perceive risk or chance accurately.

You bring up a very valid point. This is the burden of a population pre vaccination rollout.
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 22:41
  #4211 (permalink)  

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Simple. Deny the jab and lose Medicare benefits for COVID related illness plus, financial liability if you cause infection to others. Money is a great motivator.
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 22:41
  #4212 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 284
JJ789
You are clearly but a child. You obviously have no knowledge of compulsory polio and TB vaccinations in the early 60s for all children.
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 01:58
  #4213 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Coal Face
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Originally Posted by JJ 789 View Post
Ridiculous, the government can't force vaccinations. Unless you would like Australia to model itself on China? We're already a nanny state before this whole COVID business. Gee Australian's have become real apathetic pussies.
If you're not at risk, why get vaccinated? Look at the demographics where COVID has the most serious effects. Those already close to or exceeding the average life expectancy. Gee if I was living in a nursing home right now (family visiting once a week if I'm lucky, laying in my own shit for hours, surrounded by other old grogan's) I would be licking every light switch hoping to catch the bug to put me out of my misery.
So let's get on with it. Let those who want the vaccine get it and those that don't and accept a level of risk, get back to normal life.
No problem. Could you all gather your things and go live on your own island? Antarctica's available. Cheers.
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 02:47
  #4214 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
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Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer View Post
No problem. Could you all gather your things and go live on your own island? Antarctica's available. Cheers.
Antarcticaís pretty crowded, I reckon youíd probably have to have had the jab to be able to go! Little bit far away to be getting the Billy ray!
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 04:29
  #4215 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 808
Originally Posted by JJ 789 View Post
Ridiculous, the government can't force vaccinations. Unless you would like Australia to model itself on China? We're already a nanny state before this whole COVID business. Gee Australian's have become real apathetic pussies.
If you're not at risk, why get vaccinated? Look at the demographics where COVID has the most serious effects. Those already close to or exceeding the average life expectancy. Gee if I was living in a nursing home right now (family visiting once a week if I'm lucky, laying in my own shit for hours, surrounded by other old grogan's) I would be licking every light switch hoping to catch the bug to put me out of my misery.
So let's get on with it. Let those who want the vaccine get it and those that don't and accept a level of risk, get back to normal life.
It is short sighted to bring in ďpassportsĒ and will antagonise the population, but at the same time, you canít keep the country closed because some people refuse to be vaccinated. Life has to go on.

On the subject of nanny states, still booking people for jaywalking?
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 05:01
  #4216 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Dunda
Posts: 152
Originally Posted by Buster Hyman View Post
Simple. Deny the jab and lose Medicare benefits for COVID related illness plus, financial liability if you cause infection to others. Money is a great motivator.
Letís roll out this theory to all aspects of healthcare consumption. Iíll take my COVID liability if oldies and fatties take on age and fat related illness liability.
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 06:24
  #4217 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Originally Posted by Buster Hyman View Post
Simple. Deny the jab and lose Medicare benefits for COVID related illness plus, financial liability if you cause infection to others. Money is a great motivator.
So...Uhh, those 8,500 deaths and tens of thousands of instances of lung cancer caused by intentional and voluntary tobacco consumption should cough up (pardon the terrible pun), for their own treatment too?
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 06:49
  #4218 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Originally Posted by Vag277 View Post
JJ789
You are clearly but a child. You obviously have no knowledge of compulsory polio and TB vaccinations in the early 60s for all children.
Again, look at the severity of polio vs COVID. So I pose the question, as an individual in my mid 30's where this virus poses a very small risk, why should I be vaccinated?
However I've already been given an exemption by a very understanding doctor so that's a relief working in the aviation industry, but for the rest who feel like they may be "forced", I suggest they look into their rights.
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 07:47
  #4219 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Originally Posted by JJ 789 View Post
However I've already been given an exemption by a very understanding doctor so that's a relief working in the aviation industry, but for the rest who feel like they may be "forced", I suggest they look into their rights.
If you have a condition preventing you from taking the vaccine then I would suggest you are not able to hold a Class 1 medical. Good luck at your next renewal.
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 07:50
  #4220 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer View Post
No problem. Could you all gather your things and go live on your own island? Antarctica's available. Cheers.

Could you gather all your things and go live in a totalitarian / authoritarian shithole? China or North Korea's available. You'd fit right in at the Uygher "re education" camps where the Government decides what medical procedures you will have
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