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Qantas Recruitment

Old 29th Aug 2023, 05:35
  #3941 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 1234fly
Some people I know don't have an internal mainline start until 2025. So allow 3 years from interview date if you are internal....best to go external or watch all your external colleagues pass you even though you have been loyal to "qantas"
Same thing happens in the US. Rule of thumb is if your end goal is American Airlines, then fly for a United or Delta regional airline, and vice versa. Flow throughs do work they just take longer.

On one hand it makes sense for the parent company to keep itís regional staffed, but itís also shortsighted as theyíre going to lose the staff anyway to competitor (at least in the current market).

To be fair Australia is a little different as where else are you going to go from Qlink other than Virgin if you want to stay in Australia?


Last edited by havick; 29th Aug 2023 at 07:00.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 05:52
  #3942 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gazza mate
Feasible: Possible to do easily or conveniently (Oxford dictionary).

In short, the answer these days is a big fat no. It is definitely not feasible/ likely within a reasonable time frame to move from Qlink to mainline. All the proof is in these pages and pages of warnings and stories of woe here on pprune with the occasional ďI told you soĒ for those who didnít listen.

However, it is possible to easily and conveniently move from Rex and virgin ie. the opposition airlines to Mainline within a very reasonable timeframe. Fair or unfair, thatís just how it is currently. You can either work the system to your advantage or get frustrated trying to fight the system.
Whilst there are restrictions on moving from a group carrier to mainline it isn't either a convenient or assured thing to move from an external company to mainline. Don't forget only a minority of applicants will ever make it onto the hold file, and this includes Rex/VA/CX/GA pilots applying. I can't tell you if the chances of making it into mainline quicker are better inside or outside the group, but there's definitely been plenty of external candidates knocked back.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 09:41
  #3943 (permalink)  
 
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You guys are really like say State Govts trying to talk up dangerous roads or violent crime when per-capita rates are one third of what they were 40 years ago.

Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?

Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal

External (2018 & 2022 intakes)
  • 2000 plus applicants in two week application window
  • 500 get an aptitude test
  • assume 30% cull rate test
  • assume 25% cull rate interview/sim
  • 200 or so selections , intakes next two/three years
Internals 2022
  • All who apply get test (apart from those recent training failure - wait 6/12 months)
  • All test takers proceed to interview (for externals need at least 4/5 , internals proceed to interview with 1/5)
  • Assume 20% failure interview (no sim)
  • 80% success rate versus externals 10% success rate
  • Intakes next two/three years based on merit (score at test, score at sim)
So if you are waiting a long time as internal applicant it is because you ranked at the bottom end of merit pool. But it must be of significant consolation to know that if you had to compete with equal footing against externals , you just wouldn't be there

The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped

I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced

The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done

If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)

And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File

Gee Aussies are whingey whingey world champions these days. Eight times the chance & its not good enough - Precious Princes indeed

Last edited by Makiko; 29th Aug 2023 at 10:29.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 10:07
  #3944 (permalink)  
 
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In terms of do you go with a Qantas Group company or an external, the answer is surely the age old advice that hasn't ever changed, don't over think it and take the first better offer that comes up.

Everyone I did my training with took different paths, some went through Qlink others went through external companies, some flew jets some through turbo props. There's no right or wrong way and lot comes down to luck. But if I had an offer for Qlink I wouldn't be sitting in my 402 (or these days more likely my 210 or 182) thinking that move would hold back my career!
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 12:50
  #3945 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Makiko
You guys are really like say State Govts trying to talk up dangerous roads or violent crime when per-capita rates are one third of what they were 40 years ago.

Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?

Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal

External (2018 & 2022 intakes)
  • 2000 plus applicants in two week application window
  • 500 get an aptitude test
  • assume 30% cull rate test
  • assume 25% cull rate interview/sim
  • 200 or so selections , intakes next two/three years
Internals 2022
  • All who apply get test (apart from those recent training failure - wait 6/12 months)
  • All test takers proceed to interview (for externals need at least 4/5 , internals proceed to interview with 1/5)
  • Assume 20% failure interview (no sim)
  • 80% success rate versus externals 10% success rate
  • Intakes next two/three years based on merit (score at test, score at sim)
So if you are waiting a long time as internal applicant it is because you ranked at the bottom end of merit pool. But it must be of significant consolation to know that if you had to compete with equal footing against externals , you just wouldn't be there

The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped

I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced

The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done

If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)

And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File
or they offer start dates to internals in more or less the exact order in which they interviewed, which followed a system where candidates booked their own interview based on a batch of available dates. Some people didnít get through at all, so worth preparing for, but if you met a minimum standard it didnít seem particularly selective.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 12:53
  #3946 (permalink)  
 
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Rob the "Age Old" advice applied to rules that existed at the time

When the game changes the advice no longer applies

QF adopted a "recruit to group" strategy back in 16/17

Using the age old advice you would leave Qlink to go to Rex 737 , thus moving from 80% to 10% chance of success for a ML application.

Why would they offer start dates on the interview date order ? That just means that the guy who scored in top 5% can start after a guy who got zero on his entry exam, aptitude whatever . I think you will find all hold files / order of merit etc that candidates are ranked

You would have had to of been pretty ordinary not to get through

Last edited by Makiko; 29th Aug 2023 at 13:12.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 14:33
  #3947 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah, ask Jetstar if they are releasing people on merit to QF.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 15:31
  #3948 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Makiko
80% to 10% chance of success for a ML application.
You make a lot of assumptions while attacking anybody with a dissenting opinion of the Qantas group. The Townsville cool aid tastes good, but it might not necessarily be accurate. But that is by design.

The age old advice holds true even today, take the first offer that gets you further up the food chain. You never know when the music will stop and promised "flow dates" or internals dry up. Better to be safely in a seat you could spend a decade in, rather than hoping management promises come true.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 21:21
  #3949 (permalink)  
 
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Makiko,

What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines
Not at all, in fact working for a group airline can be very very satisfying and enjoyable. But, that wasnít the question.

​​​​​​​
  • assume 30% cull rate test
  • assume 25% cull rate interview/sim
Your assumptions, they are just that, assumptions.

​​​​​​​The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that
Itís irrelevant whether you think itís fair or unfair how the ratios are worked out. The system is the system and pilots canít change it. My point is, know the system as use it to your advantage. Skypilot was asking a fair question about how things work at the moment.

How the system works currently seems to be this. Group airlines are making lots of money, but they pay poorly and therefore seem to be having trouble attracting and retaining pilots. In this environment, it simply does not make business sense to poach pilots from these profitable group airlines to then see revenue drop.

Skypilot wasnít even asking if it was possible to move from qlink to mainline. Of course it is possible.

The question was clear. Is it possible to easily and conveniently move from qlink to mainline within a reasonable timeframe?

The clear answer is, in this current environment, no.




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Old 29th Aug 2023, 21:51
  #3950 (permalink)  
 
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Using the age old advice you would leave Qlink to go to Rex 737 , thus moving from 80% to 10% chance of success for a ML application.
That is a dope move that all Q-Link First Officers should consider. Zip over to Rex, get 500hrs 737 domestic, jump into Qantas ( pay any bond you might have to), get offered the 737 during induction due to your recent experience, pull in $250k in your first year. If you know how to study hard for six weeks, havenít yet tied yourself to a location through kids at school etc, and can be polite and relaxed during an interviewÖ..itís a great idea.
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Old 29th Aug 2023, 22:18
  #3951 (permalink)  
 
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Not many Qlink FOs (let alone Capts) would have a jet rating or 300hrs on a jet so Rex jet is outÖ

Essential Selection Criteria

We require all applicants for the position of First Officer to possess the following:
  • Australian Air Transport Pilot Licence or Commercial Pilots Licence as applicable
  • Turbojet Type Rating
  • IPC (or participating in an equivalent approved system)
  • Civil Aviation Safety Authority Class 1 medical or equivalent
  • Minimum of 300 hours experience on narrow body/wide body jet aircraft
  • Australian citizen or permanent residence status
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Old 30th Aug 2023, 00:54
  #3952 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Makiko
  • Intakes next two/three years based on merit (score at test, score at sim)
I can confirm, and I have experienced this first hand and heard It from the horses mouth, that the only subsidiary that do this is QLINK.
All other subsidiaries base releases on Tenure / Seniority.


The internal recruitment process is FAR from perfect however here are the FACTS:

External
- Harder to get a job with ML
- Once you get a job, quicker start (currently around 12-18 months)

Internal
- Easier to get a job with ML
- Once you get a job, harder to get a release / start (currently around 18-36 months depending on subsidiary)

Last edited by Swept-Wing; 30th Aug 2023 at 13:44.
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Old 30th Aug 2023, 04:34
  #3953 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Makiko
You guys are really like say State Govts trying to talk up dangerous roads or violent crime when per-capita rates are one third of what they were 40 years ago.

Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?

Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal

External (2018 & 2022 intakes)
  • 2000 plus applicants in two week application window
  • 500 get an aptitude test
  • assume 30% cull rate test
  • assume 25% cull rate interview/sim
  • 200 or so selections , intakes next two/three years
Internals 2022
  • All who apply get test (apart from those recent training failure - wait 6/12 months)
  • All test takers proceed to interview (for externals need at least 4/5 , internals proceed to interview with 1/5)
  • Assume 20% failure interview (no sim)
  • 80% success rate versus externals 10% success rate
  • Intakes next two/three years based on merit (score at test, score at sim)
So if you are waiting a long time as internal applicant it is because you ranked at the bottom end of merit pool. But it must be of significant consolation to know that if you had to compete with equal footing against externals , you just wouldn't be there

The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped

I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced

The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done

If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)

And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File

Gee Aussies are whingey whingey world champions these days. Eight times the chance & its not good enough - Precious Princes indeed

Incorrect being ranked.off aptitude is a thing of the past. Now it goes in order of interview dates and time
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Old 30th Aug 2023, 10:41
  #3954 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by framer
737 during induction due to your recent experience, pull in $250k in your first year
Say whaaaaat? an ex VA guy on another threat was saying year one QF 737 was $300k starting!? Someone else said it was at least $350k??

If its dropped to 250k in the last month or two at least they are still paying nice round numbers to B737 new joiners whatever the pay really is
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Old 30th Aug 2023, 11:00
  #3955 (permalink)  
 
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Ha. $300k per year for first year FO ? Not even close. Even $250k would be pushing it. Year one pay rate is $208 per stick hour.
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Old 30th Aug 2023, 11:22
  #3956 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jimothy
Ha. $300k per year for first year FO ? Not even close. Even $250k would be pushing it. Year one pay rate is $208 per stick hour.
We havenít included allowances and super yet. (Can we not do this again, please?)
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Old 30th Aug 2023, 12:27
  #3957 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 1234fly
Incorrect being ranked.off aptitude is a thing of the past. Now it goes in order of interview dates and time
Nothing personal ó with respect, thatís bollocks. The rumour is fueled by members of the recruitment team, but thatís not happening.

4 candidates per assessment centre. I donít know anybody who started on the same intake as someone from their interview.
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Old 30th Aug 2023, 15:00
  #3958 (permalink)  
 
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Direct from those moving and those approving around my flight levels, itís a dance between your place on the ďranked listĒ and your current value to the business. Final say rests with HR or above, as Iíve seen new capts taken and FOs held back, otherwise vice versa.

But, this is just one subsidiary and there are 5.199 of us now.
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Old 30th Aug 2023, 20:14
  #3959 (permalink)  
 
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If its dropped to 250k in the last month or two at least they are still paying nice round numbers to B737 new joiners whatever the pay really is [img]images/smilies/evil.gif[/img]
No donít worry, I just knocked a bit off to account for training, also, it was just a guess, also, it was SAANI ( Super and Allowances Not Included).
​​​​​​​
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Old 31st Aug 2023, 00:21
  #3960 (permalink)  
 
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Why donít we include super and allowances? Talking about salary as a whole package is quite commonplace in all industries. The way these components are calculated within different agreements makes a difference that canít be ignored. For SH to simply say itís $X per hour for the min guarantee is short changing what every Pilot actually sees in the bank.
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