Qantas Recruitment
On one hand it makes sense for the parent company to keep it’s regional staffed, but it’s also shortsighted as they’re going to lose the staff anyway to competitor (at least in the current market).
To be fair Australia is a little different as where else are you going to go from Qlink other than Virgin if you want to stay in Australia?
Last edited by havick; 29th Aug 2023 at 06:00.
Feasible: Possible to do easily or conveniently (Oxford dictionary).
In short, the answer these days is a big fat no. It is definitely not feasible/ likely within a reasonable time frame to move from Qlink to mainline. All the proof is in these pages and pages of warnings and stories of woe here on pprune with the occasional “I told you so” for those who didn’t listen.
However, it is possible to easily and conveniently move from Rex and virgin ie. the opposition airlines to Mainline within a very reasonable timeframe. Fair or unfair, that’s just how it is currently. You can either work the system to your advantage or get frustrated trying to fight the system.
In short, the answer these days is a big fat no. It is definitely not feasible/ likely within a reasonable time frame to move from Qlink to mainline. All the proof is in these pages and pages of warnings and stories of woe here on pprune with the occasional “I told you so” for those who didn’t listen.
However, it is possible to easily and conveniently move from Rex and virgin ie. the opposition airlines to Mainline within a very reasonable timeframe. Fair or unfair, that’s just how it is currently. You can either work the system to your advantage or get frustrated trying to fight the system.
You guys are really like say State Govts trying to talk up dangerous roads or violent crime when per-capita rates are one third of what they were 40 years ago.
Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?
Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal
External (2018 & 2022 intakes)
The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped
I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced
The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done
If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)
And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File
Gee Aussies are whingey whingey world champions these days. Eight times the chance & its not good enough - Precious Princes indeed
Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?
Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal
External (2018 & 2022 intakes)
- 2000 plus applicants in two week application window
- 500 get an aptitude test
- assume 30% cull rate test
- assume 25% cull rate interview/sim
- 200 or so selections , intakes next two/three years
- All who apply get test (apart from those recent training failure - wait 6/12 months)
- All test takers proceed to interview (for externals need at least 4/5 , internals proceed to interview with 1/5)
- Assume 20% failure interview (no sim)
- 80% success rate versus externals 10% success rate
- Intakes next two/three years based on merit (score at test, score at sim)
The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped
I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced
The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done
If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)
And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File
Gee Aussies are whingey whingey world champions these days. Eight times the chance & its not good enough - Precious Princes indeed
Last edited by Makiko; 29th Aug 2023 at 09:29.
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In terms of do you go with a Qantas Group company or an external, the answer is surely the age old advice that hasn't ever changed, don't over think it and take the first better offer that comes up.
Everyone I did my training with took different paths, some went through Qlink others went through external companies, some flew jets some through turbo props. There's no right or wrong way and lot comes down to luck. But if I had an offer for Qlink I wouldn't be sitting in my 402 (or these days more likely my 210 or 182) thinking that move would hold back my career!
Everyone I did my training with took different paths, some went through Qlink others went through external companies, some flew jets some through turbo props. There's no right or wrong way and lot comes down to luck. But if I had an offer for Qlink I wouldn't be sitting in my 402 (or these days more likely my 210 or 182) thinking that move would hold back my career!
The following 2 users liked this post by RobCl:
You guys are really like say State Govts trying to talk up dangerous roads or violent crime when per-capita rates are one third of what they were 40 years ago.
Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?
Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal
External (2018 & 2022 intakes)
The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped
I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced
The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done
If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)
And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File
Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?
Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal
External (2018 & 2022 intakes)
- 2000 plus applicants in two week application window
- 500 get an aptitude test
- assume 30% cull rate test
- assume 25% cull rate interview/sim
- 200 or so selections , intakes next two/three years
- All who apply get test (apart from those recent training failure - wait 6/12 months)
- All test takers proceed to interview (for externals need at least 4/5 , internals proceed to interview with 1/5)
- Assume 20% failure interview (no sim)
- 80% success rate versus externals 10% success rate
- Intakes next two/three years based on merit (score at test, score at sim)
The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped
I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced
The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done
If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)
And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File
Rob the "Age Old" advice applied to rules that existed at the time
When the game changes the advice no longer applies
QF adopted a "recruit to group" strategy back in 16/17
Using the age old advice you would leave Qlink to go to Rex 737 , thus moving from 80% to 10% chance of success for a ML application.
Why would they offer start dates on the interview date order ? That just means that the guy who scored in top 5% can start after a guy who got zero on his entry exam, aptitude whatever . I think you will find all hold files / order of merit etc that candidates are ranked
You would have had to of been pretty ordinary not to get through
When the game changes the advice no longer applies
QF adopted a "recruit to group" strategy back in 16/17
Using the age old advice you would leave Qlink to go to Rex 737 , thus moving from 80% to 10% chance of success for a ML application.
Why would they offer start dates on the interview date order ? That just means that the guy who scored in top 5% can start after a guy who got zero on his entry exam, aptitude whatever . I think you will find all hold files / order of merit etc that candidates are ranked
You would have had to of been pretty ordinary not to get through
Last edited by Makiko; 29th Aug 2023 at 12:12.
You make a lot of assumptions while attacking anybody with a dissenting opinion of the Qantas group. The Townsville cool aid tastes good, but it might not necessarily be accurate. But that is by design.
The age old advice holds true even today, take the first offer that gets you further up the food chain. You never know when the music will stop and promised "flow dates" or internals dry up. Better to be safely in a seat you could spend a decade in, rather than hoping management promises come true.
The age old advice holds true even today, take the first offer that gets you further up the food chain. You never know when the music will stop and promised "flow dates" or internals dry up. Better to be safely in a seat you could spend a decade in, rather than hoping management promises come true.
The following 3 users liked this post by DropYourSocks:
Makiko,
Not at all, in fact working for a group airline can be very very satisfying and enjoyable. But, that wasn’t the question.
Your assumptions, they are just that, assumptions.
It’s irrelevant whether you think it’s fair or unfair how the ratios are worked out. The system is the system and pilots can’t change it. My point is, know the system as use it to your advantage. Skypilot was asking a fair question about how things work at the moment.
How the system works currently seems to be this. Group airlines are making lots of money, but they pay poorly and therefore seem to be having trouble attracting and retaining pilots. In this environment, it simply does not make business sense to poach pilots from these profitable group airlines to then see revenue drop.
Skypilot wasn’t even asking if it was possible to move from qlink to mainline. Of course it is possible.
The question was clear. Is it possible to easily and conveniently move from qlink to mainline within a reasonable timeframe?
The clear answer is, in this current environment, no.
What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines
- assume 30% cull rate test
- assume 25% cull rate interview/sim
The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that
How the system works currently seems to be this. Group airlines are making lots of money, but they pay poorly and therefore seem to be having trouble attracting and retaining pilots. In this environment, it simply does not make business sense to poach pilots from these profitable group airlines to then see revenue drop.
Skypilot wasn’t even asking if it was possible to move from qlink to mainline. Of course it is possible.
The question was clear. Is it possible to easily and conveniently move from qlink to mainline within a reasonable timeframe?
The clear answer is, in this current environment, no.
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Using the age old advice you would leave Qlink to go to Rex 737 , thus moving from 80% to 10% chance of success for a ML application.
Not many Qlink FOs (let alone Capts) would have a jet rating or 300hrs on a jet so Rex jet is out…
Essential Selection Criteria
We require all applicants for the position of First Officer to possess the following:
Essential Selection Criteria
We require all applicants for the position of First Officer to possess the following:
- Australian Air Transport Pilot Licence or Commercial Pilots Licence as applicable
- Turbojet Type Rating
- IPC (or participating in an equivalent approved system)
- Civil Aviation Safety Authority Class 1 medical or equivalent
- Minimum of 300 hours experience on narrow body/wide body jet aircraft
- Australian citizen or permanent residence status
All other subsidiaries base releases on Tenure / Seniority.
The internal recruitment process is FAR from perfect however here are the FACTS:
External
- Harder to get a job with ML
- Once you get a job, quicker start (currently around 12-18 months)
Internal
- Easier to get a job with ML
- Once you get a job, harder to get a release / start (currently around 18-36 months depending on subsidiary)
Last edited by Swept-Wing; 30th Aug 2023 at 12:44.
You guys are really like say State Govts trying to talk up dangerous roads or violent crime when per-capita rates are one third of what they were 40 years ago.
Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?
Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal
External (2018 & 2022 intakes)
The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped
I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced
The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done
If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)
And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File
Gee Aussies are whingey whingey world champions these days. Eight times the chance & its not good enough - Precious Princes indeed
Just keep repeating "the narrative" & people will believe eventually believe it. What's the objective , to discourage people from applying to Group Airlines , hoping for EBA improvements or something ?
Last from me on this topic & this comes from contacts in HR. Don't believe me , no worries just have a look at ML list not hard to work out who is ext/internal
External (2018 & 2022 intakes)
- 2000 plus applicants in two week application window
- 500 get an aptitude test
- assume 30% cull rate test
- assume 25% cull rate interview/sim
- 200 or so selections , intakes next two/three years
- All who apply get test (apart from those recent training failure - wait 6/12 months)
- All test takers proceed to interview (for externals need at least 4/5 , internals proceed to interview with 1/5)
- Assume 20% failure interview (no sim)
- 80% success rate versus externals 10% success rate
- Intakes next two/three years based on merit (score at test, score at sim)
The odds are massively stacked in favour of internals 80% strike rate Vs 10% . Tons of externals who might have been TRE/TRI overseas , young pilots in LHS in USA, military test pilots don't even get selected to proceed. Because the number of tests given to externals is capped
I would think that from 2016 at least 50% of ML intake has come from internal applicants. This is reflected by the fact that approximately 150 from Qlink dash are on HF & that at least that number from Qlink dash have started since 2016 already commenced
The Airline can hire all externals or 100% internals for all I care & I have absolutely no problem that different standards applied for each group. Qantas can do whatever they like with their own airlines & as their is a shortage obviously you would think it just common sense to give their own internal group pilots preference - which is exactly what they have done
If you are a QF group pilot & want to wait minimum time to cross over ML get studying for the aptitude test as you are ranked according to your performance (the interview score doesn't create much of a differential)
And those internals who are waiting two years plus well that is based on how you own performance at selection. Just like the externals at bottom of Hold File
Gee Aussies are whingey whingey world champions these days. Eight times the chance & its not good enough - Precious Princes indeed
Incorrect being ranked.off aptitude is a thing of the past. Now it goes in order of interview dates and time
If its dropped to 250k in the last month or two at least they are still paying nice round numbers to B737 new joiners whatever the pay really is
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4 candidates per assessment centre. I don’t know anybody who started on the same intake as someone from their interview.
Direct from those moving and those approving around my flight levels, it’s a dance between your place on the “ranked list” and your current value to the business. Final say rests with HR or above, as I’ve seen new capts taken and FOs held back, otherwise vice versa.
But, this is just one subsidiary and there are 5.199 of us now.
But, this is just one subsidiary and there are 5.199 of us now.
If its dropped to 250k in the last month or two at least they are still paying nice round numbers to B737 new joiners whatever the pay really is [img]images/smilies/evil.gif[/img]
Why don’t we include super and allowances? Talking about salary as a whole package is quite commonplace in all industries. The way these components are calculated within different agreements makes a difference that can’t be ignored. For SH to simply say it’s $X per hour for the min guarantee is short changing what every Pilot actually sees in the bank.