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MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.

Old 10th Nov 2011, 00:05
  #1241 (permalink)  
 
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The 18 out of 100 that fly QANTAS is for all flights against all airlines that we don't even compete against.
You are seriously deluded if you think QANTAS does not compete with other airlines out of Australia just because QANTAS does not operate to other airlines hubs.

On the Europe routes there are a multitude of airlines that QANTAS has to compete with including Malaysian, Emirates, Qatar etc.

Just because QANTAS does not operate SYD-KUL-LHR doesn't mean they do not compete with those airlines that do.

The same with Dubai, QANTAS doesn't operate to Dubai (unless an engine goes bang or they forget to file a flightplan with one of the "stans")

Your logic suggests QANTAS doesn't compete with Emirates.
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 02:27
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DJ737

Quote:
The 18 out of 100 that fly QANTAS is for all flights against all airlines that we don't even compete against.
You are seriously deluded if you think QANTAS does not compete with other airlines out of Australia just because QANTAS does not operate to other airlines hubs.

On the Europe routes there are a multitude of airlines that QANTAS has to compete with including Malaysian, Emirates, Qatar etc.

Just because QANTAS does not operate SYD-KUL-LHR doesn't mean they do not compete with those airlines that do.

The same with Dubai, QANTAS doesn't operate to Dubai (unless an engine goes bang or they forget to file a flightplan with one of the "stans")

Your logic suggests QANTAS doesn't compete with Emirates.
I'm not going to get into a dispute as to who is delusional or not. QANTAS competes with Emirates on the Singapore/Bangkok runs and to AKL, but not into the Middle East. That would be like saying Emirates is competing with QANTAS across the Pacific to the US. In that instance, Emirates has nothing on QANTAS. Nor does any other airline going across the Pacific that QANTAS is in direct competition.

QANTAS competes with airlines that fly to Europe from SIN, HKG and BKK. Does QANTAS compete with South African to Johannesburg? NO. They code share out of Sydney on a QANTAS plane, and codeshare out of Perth on a SAA plane.

As for market share, I'll use what's quoted from the Aust. Gov't website.

International Airline Activity - Monthly Publications

These figures are as of August this year. Many more statistics to choose from, but I'll use the most recent and the one that has supposedly affected QANTAS so much due to disputes. Page 11 of the report.


Top ten airlines
Share of passengers carried Aug-10 Aug-11
Qantas Airways 18.7% 17.7%
Air New Zealand 8.5% 8.6%
Jetstar 8.9% 8.6%
Singapore Airlines 8.5% 8.5%
Emirates 8.1% 7.5%
Pacific Blue 6.3% 6.9%
Cathay Pacific Airways 5.1% 5.1%
Malaysia Airlines 3.6% 4.2%
Thai Airways International 2.9% 3.5%

Garuda Indonesia 1.7% 2.1%

As can be seen from the figures, QANTAS has more than double the marketshare of all airlines for passengers carried in and out of Australia.

If we talk about capacity, QANTAS fared very well also. Their competitiveness is very strong, even losing some market share for the same period the previous year. Only the management is poor.
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 02:42
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I have to go with DJ on this one, QF you are over simplifying what the competition is. You are correct in saying Qantas doesn't compete with EK to the Middle East but the reality is the majority of punters don't get off in Dubai. They continue to All points North, South and West including LHR, so competing with QF to the UK. It's the punter's choice to go one or the other. Similarly, EK do fly from SYD to the West Coast of USA, just the long way around so QF would win that competition, but EK is still an alternative, just as CX and CSA are for that matter. Ultimately though QF can't compete, the product just isn't up to it.......
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 03:23
  #1244 (permalink)  
 
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@QF94: "QANTAS competes with airlines that fly to Europe from SIN, HKG and BKK. Does QANTAS compete with South African to Johannesburg? NO. They code share out of Sydney on a QANTAS plane, and codeshare out of Perth on a SAA plane."

Qantas competes with the following when passengers fly Aussie to Johannesburg/South Africa: Singapore; Malaysian; Emirates; Cathay & maybe others too. How do I know - I have friends and family who have all used these airlines on the route in the last year. Sure, some flights take 12 to 18 hours longer, but many people treat a stopover in a never-before seen city as an adventure.
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 03:35
  #1245 (permalink)  
 
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Treasurer Wayne Swan says the Government's position is very clear.

"The Government would strongly oppose any attempt to challenge that decision of Fair Work Australia to terminate the industrial action from any party, from any union, or any employer," he said.

But Labor Senator and former Transport Workers Union official Glenn Sterle disagrees.

"Both parties have every legal option to challenge any decision all the way through and in all fairness to the members of the TWU at Qantas," he said.
Clear as mud Wayne, I believe a challenge from the pilots is in order..

Qantas pilots move to overturn ban on industrial action

The long-haul pilots' union has today launched a legal challenge to the workplace umpire's termination of its long-running battle with Qantas.
In a decision that threatens to reignite the bitter battle that led to the grounding of Qantas's fleet for two days, the pilots' union today filed proceedings in the Federal Court in Sydney, seeking a review of Fair Work Australia's decision last week to terminate its protected industrial action.
The Australian and International Pilots' Association had been waiting for further talks today with Qantas negotiators in front of the workplace umpire before deciding whether to challenge. It had said that Qantas had made "semi-conciliatory noises" in negotiations on Tuesday.

But the union said today that it had launched legal action because the negotiations before Fair Work were "moving very slowly" and it believed that Qantas's decision to lock out staff involved in the industrial action was "disproportionate" to its campaign, which included wearing non-uniform ties

Read more: Qantas pilots move to overturn ban on industrial action


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Old 10th Nov 2011, 03:39
  #1246 (permalink)  
 
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david1300 said:
Qantas competes with the following when passengers fly Aussie to Johannesburg/South Africa: Singapore; Malaysian; Emirates; Cathay & maybe others too. How do I know - I have friends and family who have all used these airlines on the route in the last year. Sure, some flights take 12 to 18 hours longer, but many people treat a stopover in a never-before seen city as an adventure.
Oh, well, that's good to know Dave. Maybe they won't mind stopping over in BKK and HKG on their way to London on the QF/BA 'Express' then. It will probably take 12-18 hours longer than via Dubai.
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 06:29
  #1247 (permalink)  
 
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Should AIPA be successful in this review, the whole dynamic of this dispute will change.

Joyce may decide to take a much more provocative stance, in order to get a reaction from AIPA that would enable another FWA ruling to stop industrial action.

Joyce was prepared for the fallout from one grounding.... Would he risk it again in the run up to Christmas? Very interesting chess game developing.
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 07:02
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremin
Should AIPA be successful in this review, the whole dynamic of this dispute will change.

Joyce may decide to take a much more provocative stance, in order to get a reaction from AIPA that would enable another FWA ruling to stop industrial action.

Joyce was prepared for the fallout from one grounding.... Would he risk it again in the run up to Christmas? Very interesting chess game developing.
I think the dynamic has already changed CPT Kremin. The whole urgency and pressure around the 21 days is somewhat lifted.

It's a very different ball game in my view.
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 08:48
  #1249 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed. Apart from anything else, this is a clever move.

Even though the AIPA action was very benign, it was not portrayed that way by Joyce. Joyce had intentionally equated any form of industrial action in the public's mind as potentially disrupting to their travel agendas.

Just applying to the Fed Court will now put that doubt back into peoples thoughts.... even if it is ultimately fruitless. But who knows how long that will take? Holiday bookings coming up? Better not take the risk.

Maybe you had better talk to your pilots, Alan?
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 09:35
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QF and AIPA are scheduled to be in conciliation talks at FWA tomorrow. I wonder how those discussions will pan out with this latest development....
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 10:13
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Similarly, EK do fly from SYD to the West Coast of USA, just the long way around so QF would win that competition, but EK is still an alternative, just as CX and CSA are for that matter. Ultimately though QF can't compete, the product just isn't up to it.......
Praise Jebus,

Saying QANTAS can't compete is a bit of a folly. The figures for the year ending June 2011 show otherwise. Page 46 is the reference.

http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/...taBook2011.pdf

5,977,000 international passengers carried internationally must believe there is some product and service being offered.

QANTAS may only fly to 21 international destinations, but their load factors show 82.4% which contributed to the operating revenue of the company of $14.9 billion with a pre-tax profit of $552 million and after tax of $249 million. The earnings per share were 11c, up from 4.9c the previous year.

They codeshare with 26 other airlines to go to various destinations throughout Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, Canada, within the USA. Passengers will get to where they're going, not on a QANTAS plane, but as a QANTAS passenger.

My initial posting was to try and make light of how QANTAS International was allegedly losing $216 million a year. The figures don't add up. Even in the annual report, it doesn't illustrate how the international business is weighing down the rest of the company, other than it is costing $216 million.

There are people on this forum that seem to be anti-QANTAS, pro-management and delight in seeing QANTAS go offshore or even the demise of the company. I think it's these same people that were either retrenched from QANTAS at some stage, or possibly mistreated by them or were not able to make the grade in getting into QANTAS for whatever reason.

We have seen it with many other companies in the past. The corporate greed at the top in the name of being more cost effective for the business and its shareholders, send jobs offshore and hapily employ foreigners in place of their own. What's another Australian company to go offshore employing more foreigners?
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 11:51
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IMHO, I think the whole RedQ deal will not be approved (as per article in aviation week, and AFR). QF 'apparently' have the shareholders on side at the moment but if this falls through, thats a massive waste of allocated resources in the short term. And where to from there?....

AJ, how about concentrating on the simplest of solutions. You fix the product, ie. buy some 777ER's to replace the ageing 74's - you only need 6-10 in the short term, (they would fit nicely on the DFW by the way in the short term until the 787's arrive), stop allocating all the resources to the orange cancer as you know they wouldn't turn a solid profit without the backing of QF, invest in QF international - why not a PER-LHR direct in the non-winter months in a 787 with a red tail on it? Reinstate the LHR slots to QF and watch the cash roll in come the london olympics. Turn over a new leaf with staff and say 'your jobs are safe' - boost morale immediately, people are willing to work, smiles on faces (including yours you smug *cough*), and everyone lives happily ever after. It aint that hard!!!
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 12:04
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PB - Idiotic suggestion. I think you would have wasted less time explaining the value of a good forward defensive stroke to the cat..

'If you want to irritate people purely for pleasure, you must never push them too far. If you do this they will explode into anger, shouting, yelling, being abusive and thus releasing all the tensions and anger that we have helped build up. And we certainly don't want to do that. With a little care and attention it should be possible to keep those tensions built up inside them for weeks, or even months - maybe longer. Eventually you may possibly be able to induce a nervous break down, or maybe even actual damage to the brain itself. To avoid this happening, whatever you are doing to annoy, must be perceived to be completely normal ....'

sorry for the thread drift...
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 12:10
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It must be late....V-J, put down the red wine, you've had waaay too much.. go to bed. I am.
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 14:02
  #1255 (permalink)  
 
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My point was merely that you are wasting your time trying to explain how to improve a business run by an idiot. The idiot won't understand and you have wasted your time.

John Cleese, on balance, has more appropriate and worthwhile suggestions.

If only I could get my hands on a lock of Leprechaun hair then my plasticine models, chicken bones and candles would not have been purchased in vain.

Anyone read Discrepancy's magnificent tome in the Australian today? After being very, very fortunate with some outstanding support on 'that' flight, personally I would be more inclined to circumspection in my press outings....
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 21:10
  #1256 (permalink)  
 
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DJ737 - You are 100% correct, of course QF competes with those other carriers.

QF94 you are correct as well but believe you cannot look at it by city pairs alone.

QF 94, you mentioned Malaysia, according to the stats MH flew 46,935 out of Oz in August how many of them were happy to wait 3, 4 or 8 hours for the KL / UK flight? I have tried to find the numbers without much luck but would it be 10%? That's not much and QF are happy with their sevices via BKK, HKG & SIN.

However, what if it was 50% heading to Europe? Do QF compete then? QF offers 2 destinations only and MH flies to the same 2, so yes they compete. MH also fly to Paris, Rome and Amsterdam.

Look at AMS. Say 100 pax fly from Oz to AMS p/w - QF do not fly there so, do they care? What if it was 10,000 p/w would QF want a piece of the action then? I'd say yes and therefore they do compete on the Oz / AMS route even if via LHR -it's only a few hours of inconvenience flying via LHR isn't it?


Then next year QF throw more pax away by only offering 2 return flights p/d via SIN to LHR and 1 to FRA. With the extended stop overs in BKK and HKG that puts them in greater competition with the likes of Malaysian especially when the A380's services a chockers.
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 21:19
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Last time I looked MAS fly from mel & syd twice daily at least once from brissy and also Adelaide.to KUL QF?? ... hellooooo

Its designed to fail by choosing to pull out of routes or not to expand anything with a roo on it or organised labour fixing or flying it.
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 21:46
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Should make for some great trips together.......

Cookies must be enabled | The Australian

Think there'll be a few guys that will be busy polishing the wheels of their suitcase at the end of a sector rather than beers at the pub.

When does the CP change hands?
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Old 10th Nov 2011, 22:12
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Should make for some great trips together.......

Cookies must be enabled | The Australian

Think there'll be a few guys that will be busy polishing the wheels of their suitcase at the end of a sector rather than beers at the pub.

When does the CP change hands?

......Stockholm Syndrome
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Old 11th Nov 2011, 23:08
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Thumbs up SMH

Good article in the todays SMH written by someone who KNOWS Asia and has reported from there for many,many years-Hamish Mc Donald.

Here is the bit-which we have been all been banging on about for months here:

Superb quality has to be the way Australia competes in Asia. Chase mass markets on cost, and we really will end up as Asia's trash.

Read more: The Q is for quality - not a quick buck
Spot on Hamish.
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