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MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.

Old 7th Nov 2011, 12:11
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Oh come on guys, you read something 'on the Internet' and you believe it, without checking and corroborating? When I saw the post about the President of FWA allegedly being a Partner at Freehills, I did some checking.

Didnt take long to find out that it's not QUITE as black and white as that. Suggest you use the powers of Google or whatever your favourite search engine is and do some checking before you believe everything you read. Sheez....
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 12:13
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Point Taken SimonBL, I only said thats what I saw elsewhere, didn't bother looking around myself as i'm not reading too far into it!

*EDIT*

Quick Google and a look at the Qantas website shows that Hounsell is indeed a Board Member of Freehills

And it shows that Geoffrey Guidice "With his interest in IR and law now well and truly stirred, Giudice approached a number of law firms working for Myer, with a view to doing his articles with one of them. He was accepted by
Moule, Hamilton and Derham, which, in later years, merged with Freehills. From small beginnings, he was eventually offered a partnership – and after “six or seven years” representing employers, made the decision to go to the Bar."

http://sites.thomsonreuters.com.au/j...eInterview.pdf

under "Union backgrounds"

Last edited by Ixixly; 7th Nov 2011 at 12:24.
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 12:21
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Just to clear things up, from the Qantas website:


Garry Hounsell
BBus(Acc), FCA, CPA, FAICD
Independent Non-Executive Director

Garry Hounsell was appointed to the Qantas Board in January 2005.
He is Chairman of the Audit Committee and a Member of the Nominations Committee.
Mr Hounsell is Chairman of PanAust Limited and a Director of Orica Limited, DuluxGroup Limited and Nufarm Limited. He is Chairman of Investec Global Aircraft Fund, a Director of Ingeus Limited and a Board Member of law firm Freehills.
Mr Hounsell is the former Deputy Chairman of Mitchell Communication Group Limited. He is a former Senior Partner of Ernst & Young and Chief Executive Officer and Country Managing Partner of Arthur Andersen.


And from The Federal court website:

The Hon Geoffrey Michael GIUDICE AO
Judge, Federal Court of Australia: 17.9.1997
Location: Melbourne

Other Commissions/Appointments:
Fair Work Australia – President

Geoffrey Michael Giudice is the inaugural President of Fair Work Australia which commenced operation on 1 July 2009.

Justice Giudice was appointed as President of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission and as a judge of the Federal Court of Australia on 17 September 1997. At the time of his appointment he was a practising barrister at the Victorian Bar.

Justice Giudice graduated from the University of Melbourne in Bachelors of Arts and Law in 1970. He was employed in the health and retail industries until 1979 before practising as a solicitor. He was called to the Victorian Bar in 1984 and practised in State and Federal courts principally in industrial relations and employment law.


And from the SMH:

The Howard-appointed Giudice - a former partner in a law firm which later merged with Freehills, known for its union-busting credentials - became the Julia Gillard-appointed president of the newly formed Fair Work Australia.
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 12:23
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Ixixly, yup, sorry, was meaning the FWA President reference. Who, while he has an association with Freehills, at a stretch, isn't a partner, that I can find anyway.

Sorry, it's slow cut and pasting on an iPad ;-)
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 12:25
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No worries SimonBL, just edited my last post as well with the info I found about him pointing to the same thing!
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 12:26
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Torres - AJ gave specific testimony in the Senate hearing the other morning that the board ratified his decision *unanimously*.
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 13:58
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It is an extremely common move to have directors who hold directorships in multiple public companies. The fact that oil company directors also hold positions on vehicle manufacturing company boards, is part of the reason why we never get cars that go for a hundred kms on a litre of fuel... which is entirely possible, if these crony arrangements did not exist.

It's stated publically that these directorship positions are offered to directors with "wide-ranging skills and qualifications". The truth is that the corporate world is a world of nepotism, "matey-ness", old-school ties stuff, and "mates scratching mates backs".

You wouldn't want to dig too deep, because you'd uncover some unholy and ugly corporate and director alliances, that constantly work against public benefit, to the singular benefit of the upper levels of the corporate world.
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 19:34
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that constantly work against public benefit, to the singular benefit of the upper levels of the corporate world.
And that is why the Occupy movement started. It has since, however, seemingly been hijacked by anyone with a grievance about anything, obfuscating the original cause.
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 20:39
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QF94 - thanks for the link, I found the numbers for DPS & HNL interesting.

DPS - 64,700 outbound pax in August and the winner (well winners) are, 33% by both Garuda and Pacific Blue with JetStar picking up 30%. Out of Perth 35,528 pax headed up to DPS. I have heard it myself up in Bali that plenty of people fly Garuda simply because they provide a J class service.

I'd bet that if QF had the flights with J class that they'd get more than the 33% held by both Garuda and Pacific Blue.

HNL - 13,400 outbound pax in August and the winner is JQ 42% to Hawaiian's 39%. QF had 19% and just like DPS - I'd say QF would kill it to HNL if they had the A330's and went daily rather than the 3 per week compared to JQ's 5.

With the US - remove JQ & Hawaiian from the numbers and that gives you AUS to the east coast and QF had 52% in August, compared to both United and V Australia both picking up 20%.

If only you guys were able to do all of the international flying

Lies, damned lies, and statistics
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 22:11
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QF94 - thanks for the link, I found the numbers for DPS & HNL interesting.

DPS - 64,700 outbound pax in August and the winner (well winners) are, 33% by both Garuda and Pacific Blue with JetStar picking up 30%. Out of Perth 35,528 pax headed up to DPS. I have heard it myself up in Bali that plenty of people fly Garuda simply because they provide a J class service.

I'd bet that if QF had the flights with J class that they'd get more than the 33% held by both Garuda and Pacific Blue.

HNL - 13,400 outbound pax in August and the winner is JQ 42% to Hawaiian's 39%. QF had 19% and just like DPS - I'd say QF would kill it to HNL if they had the A330's and went daily rather than the 3 per week compared to JQ's 5.

With the US - remove JQ & Hawaiian from the numbers and that gives you AUS to the east coast and QF had 52% in August, compared to both United and V Australia both picking up 20%.

If only you guys were able to do all of the international flying

Lies, damned lies, and statistics
Thanks for the vote of confidence 73to91.

The statistics are there and can't be argued with. Sure, QANTAS may have only carried 19% of the HNL passengers. As you very well put, if we were able to use the 330's and increased frequency, those figures would go up. For August, QANTAS had 202 flights to the US (This obviously includes HNL, as there is no seperate figure for this), carrying 50,997 passengers with seat capacity of 58,084 giving a load factor of 86.7% for the US run.

United Airlines had 61 flights carrying 18,191 passengers with a seat capacity of 22814. Load factor 79.7%

Delta, 31 Flights, 7,050 passengers wit a capacity of 8,339. Load factor 84.5%

Hawaiian, 22 flights, 5195 passengers with a capacity of 5,589. Load factor 93.0%

JQ, 19 flights, 5,684 passengers with a capacity of 6,386. Load factor 89%

Even to Hawaii, JQ with its 330's can't outdo Hawaiian using old 767's. Must say something about the price and service of Hawaiian compared to that of JQ.

The worst load for QANTAS in August was Port Moresby with 44.6% while Japan (NRT) was the best with 93.5%. The monthly average for all outbound flights was 75.2%

JQ had Vietnam as its worst with only 47.4% load while its best was USA (HNL) with 89%. The August average was 76.4%

This flies in the face of only 18 passengers out of every hundred choose to fly QANTAS.

QANTAS only flies to about 21 international destinations, and code shares on the rest. As other airlines code share on QANTAS because they don't service every destination either. Hence alliances such as Star and One World.
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 23:47
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Do the figures you quote break out the code share i.e. JQ codeshare on the QF flights to HNL. Are the numbers bums on seats on the airline or sales by carrier.

JQ passengers book on a QF service to HNL and get the JQ fare with all the goodies thrown in and don't have to pay extra. Savvy punters. There are very few seats available on QF between HNL and SYD and the load factors on the JQ you quote don't seem right from years of operating the route.

May need to look at the breakdown of actual passengers on carriers between JQ and QF.
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 23:51
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QF

Plenty of media noise about an appeal of the FWA Full Bench decision. Taking it to the Fed Court would be a massive step and would probably need ACTU backing.

Some of the reasons reported would appear to have very little legal base in my view.

A "disproportionate response" to the action being taken by employees, namely the pilots. In my reaading of the Fair Work Act, there is nothing that suggests a proportionate response by an employer in initiating "employer response action" (lockout) is warranted.

If there are claims that the action taken by QF was unfair or capricious then there may have been a case that the QF industrial action was not PIA and the employees or unions could have sought a section 418 order against QF (a far more simple and straightforward matter to pursue than an appeal).

In pursuing PIA employees or employers basically need to demonstrate that they are genuinely trying to reach agreement. That is the threshold factor, and from my reading of cases, the tribunal has set a very low bar on that.

The other thing I've heard, and I wonder if this is getting caught up in the reporting of the Greens Bill to change the Fair Work Act rules on notification, is that QF didn't meet the notice requirements when they initiated the lockout. The key difference with 'employee claim' action (stop works, bans, red ties, announcements etc) is the 3 full working days notice required. With a lockout it's essentially written notification after the employee claim action has commenced. There is no 3 day requirement

The Fair Work Act introduced no pre-emptive lockouts. It is fact that all three unions had taken some form of PIA. As far as I'm aware, there are no restrictions on an employer around timing other than it being in "response".

Is there a concern over whether or not QF met the notice requirement about taking all reasonable steps to notify? Did employees get an email or letter, or was there something placed on the Intranet? This may be contested, but there is case law on the "taking all reasonable steps" test.

So if QF didn't meet the notice requirements lets say, then the argument by the TWU (who's been the most vocal) would be that it was unprotected industrial action by QF and therefore a section 424 application should not have even been heard. The TWU probably should have argued that in opposition during the hearings to put weight to it.

But there may be somehting else out there, which based on last nights media Fed Sec is keen to get his hands on
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Old 7th Nov 2011, 23:51
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Question

HNL - 13,400 outbound pax in August and the winner is JQ 42% to Hawaiian's 39%. QF had 19% and just like DPS - I'd say QF would kill it to HNL if they had the A330's and went daily rather than the 3 per week compared to JQ's 5.
I wonder what QF's capacity to HNL is? We fly a 767 configured 25/202 three times per week compared to J*s A330 configured with ? 5 times a week. Anyone know Hawaiian's config and schedule? Apparently QF still make money on HNL- to both Dixon and Joyce great surprise apparently.
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Old 8th Nov 2011, 00:06
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Do the figures you quote break out the code share i.e. JQ codeshare on the QF flights to HNL. Are the numbers bums on seats on the airline or sales by carrier.

JQ passengers book on a QF service to HNL and get the JQ fare with all the goodies thrown in and don't have to pay extra. Savvy punters. There are very few seats available on QF between HNL and SYD and the load factors on the JQ you quote don't seem right from years of operating the route.

May need to look at the breakdown of actual passengers on carriers between JQ and QF.
Agent, those figures are from the downloaded spread sheet from the link provided. It shows the JQ loads for each country not city. So seats and loads to US, which is HNL. But for the QF loads of US there is no breakdown between HNL and mainland US. I know the QF HNL flights are jam packed and very difficult to get a seat on. Their loads are at least 85% to 90% on average.

The only real way to get those types of loads would be to get into flight ops database.
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Old 8th Nov 2011, 00:09
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Apparently QF still make money on HNL- to both Dixon and Joyce great surprise apparently.
QF is making money on just about all of its routes much to the begrudgement of Dixon and Joyce. There is no way QF International is losing $216 million a year. That figure is most probably the losses of JQ being dumped on QANTAS. Just ask about the Vietnam sector.
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Old 8th Nov 2011, 01:38
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Agent Mulder, you said:
JQ passengers book on a QF service to HNL and get the JQ fare with all the goodies thrown in and don't have to pay extra. Savvy punters.
how does that work? Isn't a JQ pax a JQ pax? Different for a pax who gets on the QF site and gets re-directed to the JQ site isn't it?

the load factors on the JQ you quote don't seem right from years of operating the route
as JQ only operate to HNL it's easy to see the outbound numbers and I just checked again - Aug JQ 42% & Hawaiian 39% in Jul it was 35% for JQ and Hawaiian had 47%

Keg,
Anyone know Hawaiian's config and schedule?
Hawaiian on their web site have a 767-300 seat characteristics and it states 264 seats - as the config for 1st class is 2/2/2 that would be 18 in 1st & 246 in coach. They operate 5 p/w. Boeing 767-300ER - Hawaiian Airlines

QF94
for the QF loads of US there is no breakdown between HNL and mainland US
but on Table 5 the total between Sydney & HNL (outbound) is 13,400 - Using Table 3 you can see the outbound pax travelling to the USA on JetStar & Hawaiian so balance must be QF ?

Just ask about the Vietnam sector
This shows what smart people they have at JQ and I think I read months ago that JQ send all of their flights via DRW. So looking at Ho Chi Minh City only, Vietnam Airlines in August flew 6,725 outbound compared to JQ's 1285 that's 84% v 16% - but it's about choice fly direct from Melbourne or Sydney on Vietnam Air or via Darwin with JQ.
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Old 8th Nov 2011, 01:55
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Busted!
Qantas Group’s domestic market share is expected to remain between 64 and 65 per cent (2010: 64 and 65 per cent) and international market share remains between 27 and 28 per cent (2010: 27 and 28 per cent). These ranges were estimated having regard to the Qantas Group’s committed fleet plans and those of its existing competitors.
Qantas Annual Report, page 77

Last edited by FYSTI; 8th Nov 2011 at 06:49. Reason: correct page reference
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Old 8th Nov 2011, 07:39
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Originally Posted by QF94
QF is making money on just about all of its routes
QF94 - are you in Qantas Revenue Management? If not, how do you know route profs. Qantas makes on their International markets?
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Old 8th Nov 2011, 09:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QF94
QF is making money on just about all of its routes

QF94 - are you in Qantas Revenue Management? If not, how do you know route profs. Qantas makes on their International markets?
T-vasis, no, I personally am not in QANTAS Revenue Managment, but those I do know in there are saying they are. Also, the loads I am personally seeing on dispatch would imply they are making money, otherwise it would be very poor management on their part for having the loads they have and losing an alleged amount of $216 million a year on the international side of things.
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Old 8th Nov 2011, 09:16
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Helloooo.........

From Bens Blog...

Is there anybody out there ?

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