MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
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I possess no inside knowledge, nor expertise in the area but wouldn't be surpassed if there was behind the scenes pressure/influence on FWA to lean to the worker's side of the claims, simply because of Government anger at the tricks played by Joyce & Qantas WRT the grounding, and the lack of communication to the Government.
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That is simply not true, it most certainly did not happen like that in any company I worked in in the 60's, 70's 80's or 90's
The majority of Australia's ordinary workers were covered (and many still are) by the award system. State or federal. Remember that, Arnold? I certainly do. If you were a trades person, then odds on you were on an award prior to Labor's introduction of EBA's. I started working in 1976, and have always been covered by one award or other until my first airline job in 1994.
I stand by my analogy. EBA's are fundamentally a flawed process, particularly in Qantas' case. How else can it be, when you have to sacrifice hard-earned conditions for CPI or even less? CPI should be given as a cornerstone to any EBA. Conditions are a finite source to sacrifice or negotiate. Sooner or later you are playing that strip poker game, sittin' at the table in your undies... and still only getting CPI.
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CPI should be given as a cornerstone to any EBA
What legal or moral responsibility should an employer be under to continually pay at minimum CPI increases when CPI ultimately sits outside the control of an enterprise?
Essentially your proposal is to mandate a minimum level of increase.
....but wouldn't be surpassed if there was behind the scenes pressure/influence on FWA to lean to the worker's side of the claims, simply because of Government anger at the tricks played by Joyce & Qantas WRT the grounding, and the lack of communication to the Government.
The majority of Australia's ordinary workers were covered (and many still are) by the award system. State or federal.
ACT Crusader,
Maybe if management also only got a CPI increase, every company would have more than enough money to pay a CPI increase to their workers (and then some).
But you wouldn't support anything that disadvantages management would you? Are you one of Qantas's social media consultants? If so, tell your boss that he's a scumb*g.
Maybe if management also only got a CPI increase, every company would have more than enough money to pay a CPI increase to their workers (and then some).
But you wouldn't support anything that disadvantages management would you? Are you one of Qantas's social media consultants? If so, tell your boss that he's a scumb*g.
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The basic reason for working is to be able to live. You know, feed, clothe, educate yourself & your family; & also to put a roof over the everyone's head.
If you don't get CPI you are taking a pay cut every year. At the very least you need CPI on basic items such as food, housing, education, medical & clothing.
If you take a pay cut every year, even with surplus salary to begin with, you will end up with a reduction in the standard of living and, taken to the extreme, end up on the street living on food stamps.
But who cares - right?!!!
If you don't get CPI you are taking a pay cut every year. At the very least you need CPI on basic items such as food, housing, education, medical & clothing.
If you take a pay cut every year, even with surplus salary to begin with, you will end up with a reduction in the standard of living and, taken to the extreme, end up on the street living on food stamps.
But who cares - right?!!!
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ACT Crusader,
Maybe if management also only got a CPI increase, every company would have more than enough money to pay a CPI increase to their workers (and then some).
But you wouldn't support anything that disadvantages management would you? Are you one of Qantas's social media consultants? If so, tell your boss that he's a scumb*g.
Maybe if management also only got a CPI increase, every company would have more than enough money to pay a CPI increase to their workers (and then some).
But you wouldn't support anything that disadvantages management would you? Are you one of Qantas's social media consultants? If so, tell your boss that he's a scumb*g.
What's your definition of "management" because there are plenty of salaried middle managers that don't see yearly pay increases and are on moderate (60-80k) wages.
If you are referring to executive remuneration. Well that's a completely different story because alot of high profile CEOs for example, are appointments and are not by definition employees and are more like contractors.
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Crusader,
In following your posts I thought you were just another sympathiser but I have grown to the view that you have broader view than that and unlike a lot of the posters here you have a deeper understanding of FWA, industrial process and how it may all fit together.
When one of the sympathisers comes out and accuses you of being a company stooge it probably says it all in that "if you are not with us that must mean you are against us and therefore everything you say is rubbish".
Pilots never miss an opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot..... both feet if they get sufficient opportunity.
In following your posts I thought you were just another sympathiser but I have grown to the view that you have broader view than that and unlike a lot of the posters here you have a deeper understanding of FWA, industrial process and how it may all fit together.
When one of the sympathisers comes out and accuses you of being a company stooge it probably says it all in that "if you are not with us that must mean you are against us and therefore everything you say is rubbish".
Pilots never miss an opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot..... both feet if they get sufficient opportunity.
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The basic reason for working is to be able to live. You know, feed, clothe, educate yourself & your family; & also to put a roof over the everyone's head.
If you don't get CPI you are taking a pay cut every year. At the very least you need CPI on basic items such as food, housing, education, medical & clothing.
If you take a pay cut every year, even with surplus salary to begin with, you will end up with a reduction in the standard of living and, taken to the extreme, end up on the street living on food stamps.
If you don't get CPI you are taking a pay cut every year. At the very least you need CPI on basic items such as food, housing, education, medical & clothing.
If you take a pay cut every year, even with surplus salary to begin with, you will end up with a reduction in the standard of living and, taken to the extreme, end up on the street living on food stamps.
Great theory but in practice in the Australian industrial world it is not an entitlement and in reality it is quite the opposite. If you can negotiate it and it equals CPI then that is your good fortune.
If you think it is an entitlement you are about 30 years too late.
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This thread is a lot easier to read when you 'ignore' clotted and ACT Crusader and the others trolls like Ken B etc. whom I have no doubt are in the employ of the Big Q as Social Media commentators.
No point in replying boys, 'cause to me you are -'ignored'
No point in replying boys, 'cause to me you are -'ignored'
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Originally Posted by clotted
Great theory but in practice in the Australian industrial world it is not an entitlement
and in reality it is quite the opposite.
If you can negotiate it and it equals CPI then that is your good fortune.
Last edited by DutchRoll; 16th Nov 2011 at 21:48.
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As Dutchroll points out the reality is (for better or worse depending where you sit in "negotiations") is that CPI increases are not a given. Enterprise level "bargaining" under legislation since the early 90s has not mandated minimum wage increases.
I'm not here to take sides, be a 'troll' or 'sympathizer', I've visited this forum for many years and started posting this year given the industrial situation at hand. Feel free to go back and look at any of my posts and see if a "troll" is at work
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Dutch roll . The thing that amazes me is that Qf encourages poor relations with their staff.
The FWA process seems to make it even worse.
QF remains highly unionised partly as a legacy of former govt ownership but more so now because people feel the need to belong to afford a modicum of protection.
I truly believe QF could to a degree disarm the unions by engendering real working relationships and offering a seat at the decision making table.
There is no trust and no working relationship.
It is a very sad state of affairs.
LC has stated it is one thing to win the war but another altogether to win the peace. Very true but...
Frankly that is impossible with the current executives in place and their attitude toward staff relations.
Even if the workers have their backsides walloped at FWA or conciliation , I cannot see change until there is real change at the top end.
They have gone too far.
The FWA process seems to make it even worse.
QF remains highly unionised partly as a legacy of former govt ownership but more so now because people feel the need to belong to afford a modicum of protection.
I truly believe QF could to a degree disarm the unions by engendering real working relationships and offering a seat at the decision making table.
There is no trust and no working relationship.
It is a very sad state of affairs.
LC has stated it is one thing to win the war but another altogether to win the peace. Very true but...
Frankly that is impossible with the current executives in place and their attitude toward staff relations.
Even if the workers have their backsides walloped at FWA or conciliation , I cannot see change until there is real change at the top end.
They have gone too far.
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LC has stated it is one thing to win the war but another altogether to win the peace. Very true but...
Frankly that is impossible with the current executives in place and their attitude toward staff relations.
Even if the workers have their backsides walloped at FWA or conciliation , I cannot see change until there is real change at the top end.
They have gone too far.
Frankly that is impossible with the current executives in place and their attitude toward staff relations.
Even if the workers have their backsides walloped at FWA or conciliation , I cannot see change until there is real change at the top end.
They have gone too far.
I have stated before, that you cannot only get rid of AJ or LC. It has to be all twelve board members. Most of them were there to oversee the last failed sale of QANTAS.
It was also asked how would it be proposed to remove the board of QANTAS. As the major shareholders will not have a bar of that, QANTAS would have to be re-nationalised, the board ejected by the government, and the government take control of and run the company until it can be stabilised again. Look at Air NZ when Ansett collapsed. The government bailed them out, and still has a stake in it, and it has turned around.
With the current government in place that is more than likely to not happen, but in order to save what's left of QANTAS, it needs to happen.
For QANTAS to lose this battle (I separate QANTAS from the board, as they are hell-bent on destroying it), it will be a major loss to Australia. Not just QANTAS jobs, but Australian jobs generally. If a company can lock out its staff at a whim, and it becomes an accepted practice, then be prepared for the wave of boards of companies holding the workers and the country to ransom to benefit their bottom line and terms and conditions.
Unfortunately possums, Qantas is about to be overtaken by events with tragic results.
I am watching European bond rates. Greece Italy and Spain will not be able to recover through "Austerity" because the depression this causes will impact their tax revenues - making their problems worse.
The Euro is in its death throws unless the European Central Bank becomes a lender of last resort and starts printing money - which the Germans most likely won't allow because they see Economics as a morality play - which it ain't.
This will most likely trigger a global depression and China isn't going to save us. As a trading nation Australia will suffer and I expect the Australian dollar to fall a long way.
The folly of Qantas having maintenance done overseas where it has to be paid for in an earned foreign currency will then become apparent, just as the folly of relying on overseas supply chains already is. The "Asian Strategy" will also have to be jettisoned.
Read Paul Krugmans blog and this guy, if you have the stomach for it.
Italian default scenarios « naked capitalism
I am watching European bond rates. Greece Italy and Spain will not be able to recover through "Austerity" because the depression this causes will impact their tax revenues - making their problems worse.
The Euro is in its death throws unless the European Central Bank becomes a lender of last resort and starts printing money - which the Germans most likely won't allow because they see Economics as a morality play - which it ain't.
This will most likely trigger a global depression and China isn't going to save us. As a trading nation Australia will suffer and I expect the Australian dollar to fall a long way.
The folly of Qantas having maintenance done overseas where it has to be paid for in an earned foreign currency will then become apparent, just as the folly of relying on overseas supply chains already is. The "Asian Strategy" will also have to be jettisoned.
Read Paul Krugmans blog and this guy, if you have the stomach for it.
Italian default scenarios « naked capitalism
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Sunfish, expect to see the term "SDR*" enter the vernacular in the not too distant future...
* Money printing by a fancy name.
* Money printing by a fancy name.
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Paying tax in Greece is optional sunny. Spain and Italy have debts too big to bail out. But at least they produce stuff compared to Greece. Way off topic so I'll shut up now. Euro zone and the European Union is going to be ugly for a long time.
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As Dutchroll points out the reality is (for better or worse depending where you sit in "negotiations") is that CPI increases are not a given. Enterprise level "bargaining" under legislation since the early 90s has not mandated minimum wage increases.
However, unless the agenda is the 'real' reduction of western wages (which it most likely is) then logically (and I believe, morally) CPI wage increases should be a given.
If my wage was denominated in gold or 'X' number of loaves of bread then I would get the same every year. As I am paid in a depreciating fiat currency I need my wage to increase (or decrease if deflation be the case) to continue to receive the same wage in gold or 'X' number of loaves of bread. If this is not the case I am taking a wage cut every year.
To turn the argument around (to where I perceive your interests to lay) would be to say that a company should not be allowed to increase the price of its product unless it can show an improvement in the quality or utility of the product.
Just because something is 'just the way it is' does not make it ethically (a foreign term for many large businesses today) right.