ATC Staff Shortages?
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There are days when no money makes the job worthwhile and other days when you feel guilty to take the money.
Who was it that said 'I don't agree with his opinion but I respect his right to that opinion'.
If you compare to the wage paid to managers and 'support staff' I would go gangbusters for more $.
Regardless of what TFN and his cronies say, ATCs will be in short supply in the next few years as the age profile hits and major projects come on line such as son of TAAATS. Of course there is no shortage now
Who was it that said 'I don't agree with his opinion but I respect his right to that opinion'.
If you compare to the wage paid to managers and 'support staff' I would go gangbusters for more $.
Regardless of what TFN and his cronies say, ATCs will be in short supply in the next few years as the age profile hits and major projects come on line such as son of TAAATS. Of course there is no shortage now
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I love being entertained by the narrow minded and the selfish masses. It gives me a good laugh guys, keep it coming!
Howabout
Good journo skills, misrepresenting my comments and twisting it around. Nice 
Plazbot,
Yes - as I myself have noted in previous posts. Thank you Sherlock.
For the record, as it obvious you believe I am one of these controllers who take every AD going and bend myself backwards to help AsA - that is incorrect. I say 'Nup', it is not that hard and more people should do it instead of whinging all the time. I don't come back to work after only 4.5 hrs away. I don't work more than 10 hours at a time. I don't agree to doing dodgy short break procedures when they can't get coverage. So don't make judgements based on assumptions pal!
As far as getting paid more overseas - if people want to go and grab the cash, fine by me. But I would need to paid at least 3x as much to go and live in the Middle East as what they currently pay. I would need Germany to offer twice what they currently do to entice me to move my life, and my fiance's, to go over there! I value my current lifestyle here in AUS as being worth quite a lot. Besides, I'm pretty certain it's a lot busier traffic wise over there than it is here, generally speaking - so they should get paid more! If you all like the conditions offered elsewhere, then go and work there. Don't sit at the console whinging and whining in my ear all day. It gets old real quickly.
It is quite amusing that you all jump up and cry blue murder because I have a different perspective to you regarding my employment situation. Speaking to a lot of my friends in the tradie world, the corporate world, the IT world as a few examples - I happen to think that I have it pretty good. And you try and shoot a bloke down for that. Laughable.
I do agree with you RYAN TCAD, the college training wage is very poor - I think it is just under 40k now but it needs a substantial increase to attract more quality applicants. I personally know of 5 people that withdrew their applications specifically because of this - and all 5 expressed that the pay scales once rated were acceptable.
You are correct. God help me - how stressful. A performance check for a couple of hours every 6 months. A medical once every couple of years (that's what my requirements are anyway - not sure if they become annual as you get older or something?) Very stressful indeed. 
Oh, and lets not forget the annual open book ratings papers. IMHO, we should be checked way more often! But let's not go into that!
So step up one and all. Let's verbally bash a "weak prick" for being content with his job and having a bit of perspective on life. Living in a gorgeous country, being happy and healthy. Things could be a million times worse in life. I apologise for realising how lucky I am. If you seriously aren't happy at AsA - then just piss off. But take a reality check first!
Howabout
Jeez, I don't mind impassioned argument. What doesn't compute is inconsistency.
Plazbot,
A quick 'show all posts' and some simple time lining puts coneyisland at about 15 minutes as an ATC (OK, maybe 2 years).
ruining their own conditions year in year out and it is weak pricks like coneyisland that are the reason.
I'm so over young pontificating controllers who "kiss up and sh*t down".
As far as getting paid more overseas - if people want to go and grab the cash, fine by me. But I would need to paid at least 3x as much to go and live in the Middle East as what they currently pay. I would need Germany to offer twice what they currently do to entice me to move my life, and my fiance's, to go over there! I value my current lifestyle here in AUS as being worth quite a lot. Besides, I'm pretty certain it's a lot busier traffic wise over there than it is here, generally speaking - so they should get paid more! If you all like the conditions offered elsewhere, then go and work there. Don't sit at the console whinging and whining in my ear all day. It gets old real quickly.
It is quite amusing that you all jump up and cry blue murder because I have a different perspective to you regarding my employment situation. Speaking to a lot of my friends in the tradie world, the corporate world, the IT world as a few examples - I happen to think that I have it pretty good. And you try and shoot a bloke down for that. Laughable.
I do agree with you RYAN TCAD, the college training wage is very poor - I think it is just under 40k now but it needs a substantial increase to attract more quality applicants. I personally know of 5 people that withdrew their applications specifically because of this - and all 5 expressed that the pay scales once rated were acceptable.
I have to pass regular medical checks and regular performance checks.
Oh, and lets not forget the annual open book ratings papers. IMHO, we should be checked way more often! But let's not go into that!So step up one and all. Let's verbally bash a "weak prick" for being content with his job and having a bit of perspective on life. Living in a gorgeous country, being happy and healthy. Things could be a million times worse in life. I apologise for realising how lucky I am. If you seriously aren't happy at AsA - then just piss off. But take a reality check first!
So coneyisland, you're clearly happy to have AsA management treat you however they see fit in their "whatever it takes" mindset to get their project up and earn their bonus.
"Please Sir, can I have some more?" as they bend you over to make their bonus. Luverly!
And no-one said medicals and checks were stressful - that would be misrepresentation and twisting of words by you. Nice.
"Please Sir, can I have some more?" as they bend you over to make their bonus. Luverly!
And no-one said medicals and checks were stressful - that would be misrepresentation and twisting of words by you. Nice.
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And no-one said medicals and checks were stressful - that would be misrepresentation and twisting of words by you.
your reference to how easy we ATCs have it says a lot. Do you not get what we do every day? In a previous life I was a tradie, and as such I worked Monday to Friday, no public holidays, no shift work, no medical required to retain my qualifications, no 6 monthly performance checks.
In a previous life I was a tradie, and as such I worked Monday to Friday, no public holidays, no shift work, no medical required to retain my qualifications, no 6 monthly performance checks.
Le pingouin,
"Please Sir, can I have some more?" as they bend you over to make their bonus. Luverly!
There are way too many ATC's who complain and moan constantly and blow things out of proportion. If you don't like it, then leave. Why don't you? Because you either have zero qualifications or zero alternative prospects. Or for those that do, you don't leave because you know deep down you are on a pretty good deal compared to most. Stop complaining or get out. Please, for my sanity and the multitude of ATC's who have PM'ed me expressing very similar sentiments to my own.
For the record, those that pm'ed (both pilots and ATC's) their support of my comments - thanks very much. Glad I'm not the only sensible one with a grip on reality. To the rest of you, its shameful that they are too worried to express their support openly - as many as easily identifiable by their posting history and wouldn't put it past some of you to hand them off 6 miles with 80 knots closing!! Sad reflection on some of you guys I'm afraid.
If you don't like it, then leave. Why don't you?
Enjoy your doggos, and look forward to the day where you have short break procedure forced apon you, or have to sit for 6 hours on your own, or the day you duck it up and the management put you out on your ass. Don't tell me it doesn't happen because it does.
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Have I denied we are in a shortage? Not at all. And when my comments are read in context, that's understood. Congrats to those that have left or are leaving for what they perceive to be greener pastures. I respect and applaud that. My comments are directed to those that sit and whinge and whine continually about how bad it supposedly is. They should get out too!!!
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Whilst I agree with some of what you say, Coney, (as one who was prepared to do something about it) you do show how wet behind the ears you are with statements like
It might become a "bloody big deal" to you when you have 10 or more years in, encounter a health problem and realise that you could, indeed, be looking for something else to do in very short order. My brother, a tradie, last year made slightly more than double what a controller in oz makes and NEVER has to face the prospect of being medicalled out or failing a check. That isn't even WHY controllers earn their money, despite your thoughts on the matter. Many, many knowledge workers 'sit on their arse', so to speak, yet earn far more for doing little more than creating wealth (ahh, the irony)- think traders, programmers etc. It isn't even all about the fact that controllers can make an error and kill, or at the very least seriously endanger 600 people in one go (as you well know). We should earn the biccies for the amount of money we save by adding efficiency to the system (and I really mean that), alone.
People like you crack me up. If you had any integrity you would've approached AsA and offered to work for 'an appropriate amount', thereby assuaging any guilt you have from limiting managers bonuses and overindulging at the public trough.
Entitled to an opinion- sure. Opinion being evidence of immaturity- maybe. Open to comment- certainly.
a medical once in a blue moon as this person above had. It's not a big bloody deal.
People like you crack me up. If you had any integrity you would've approached AsA and offered to work for 'an appropriate amount', thereby assuaging any guilt you have from limiting managers bonuses and overindulging at the public trough.
Entitled to an opinion- sure. Opinion being evidence of immaturity- maybe. Open to comment- certainly.
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ferris, if people want to earn double the money - then get out and work as a tradie. Don't sit here and complain all day every day. Medicals are a part of the gig. It's a known fact from day one that you could lose it in the future. Don't like it? Get out. What should been done? Pay us 10k 20k 50? more annually just because one day you might get lose the medical. Get serious.
You and others think your 'services' are worth more. Fine. Entitled to that opinion. My own opinion is I do not think we are worth more. I am appreciative and thankful. Simple. I am presenting my differing opinion to the endless complaining that is evident here and in the op's room.
I am so glad to be "immature" - when immature means I'm grateful, happy and content. Much better than being bitter and twisted like too many of my colleagues.
You and others think your 'services' are worth more. Fine. Entitled to that opinion. My own opinion is I do not think we are worth more. I am appreciative and thankful. Simple. I am presenting my differing opinion to the endless complaining that is evident here and in the op's room.
I am so glad to be "immature" - when immature means I'm grateful, happy and content. Much better than being bitter and twisted like too many of my colleagues.
Coney
You speak of "those that sit and whinge and whine continually about how bad it supposedly is."
Leaving aside the "one way swimmer" and "God`s gift" brigade (in those specific instances we do have common ground) I would urge you to consider that there has been an almost exponentially increasing level of toxicity in the organisation over about the last decade, on a number of fronts.
The "whingeing and whining" you refer to has to be looked at in that evolutionary context, not as an entrenched attitudinal absolute - which, if not by statement, then at the very least by inference is what seems to be coming through in your posts.
You can get a second opinion on the above from the "multitude of ATCs" from whom you have received PMs. It sure as hell ain`t the workplace it was 10, let alone 15 years ago...and being on quite a good wicket relatively speaking, as you would put it, is far from the complete employment picture.
You speak of "those that sit and whinge and whine continually about how bad it supposedly is."
Leaving aside the "one way swimmer" and "God`s gift" brigade (in those specific instances we do have common ground) I would urge you to consider that there has been an almost exponentially increasing level of toxicity in the organisation over about the last decade, on a number of fronts.
The "whingeing and whining" you refer to has to be looked at in that evolutionary context, not as an entrenched attitudinal absolute - which, if not by statement, then at the very least by inference is what seems to be coming through in your posts.
You can get a second opinion on the above from the "multitude of ATCs" from whom you have received PMs. It sure as hell ain`t the workplace it was 10, let alone 15 years ago...and being on quite a good wicket relatively speaking, as you would put it, is far from the complete employment picture.
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Coneyisland,
I have read all your posts on pprune, including on the ATC forum.
You say you have around two years rated experience are engaged to be married and worked hard at the College. Congratulations.You should be on around the $90k mark with no kids.
Right so far? Any mortgage? I'll also assume ( bad thing in aviation ) that you are in the twenties or early thirties. I'll also assume you haven't done years of nightshift? Haven't been involved in an incident? Maybe seen a colleague who has? Is your sector the busiest? Is it the most demanding? Are you the smartest guy in the room? Is youth wasted on the young?
You needed an ego to be an ATC or pilot, make sure it doesn't bite you on the backside.
You've decided that the Middle East should pay you 3X ( $270k- tax ) your present salary to go up there. They're currently paying around $200k TAX free, when are your resignation drinks? Could you bundle them up with all the others that are leaving to save my liver, like the last 4 guys did six weeks ago and the other resignation/ early retirement people are doing in early December?
I have read all your posts on pprune, including on the ATC forum.
You say you have around two years rated experience are engaged to be married and worked hard at the College. Congratulations.You should be on around the $90k mark with no kids.
Right so far? Any mortgage? I'll also assume ( bad thing in aviation ) that you are in the twenties or early thirties. I'll also assume you haven't done years of nightshift? Haven't been involved in an incident? Maybe seen a colleague who has? Is your sector the busiest? Is it the most demanding? Are you the smartest guy in the room? Is youth wasted on the young?
You needed an ego to be an ATC or pilot, make sure it doesn't bite you on the backside.
You've decided that the Middle East should pay you 3X ( $270k- tax ) your present salary to go up there. They're currently paying around $200k TAX free, when are your resignation drinks? Could you bundle them up with all the others that are leaving to save my liver, like the last 4 guys did six weeks ago and the other resignation/ early retirement people are doing in early December?
Last edited by max1; 7th Nov 2010 at 09:48.
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max1, correct - engaged with no kids (no plans in the near future either) and yes I do have a mortgage.
konstantin, you make a very valid point to which I probably did not give as much thought to as I should have. but in this ever-changing world I would be inclined to think most industries/workplaces would be experiencing the same. the world is about big business and making money, not the little ants that keep the place running. unfortunate yes, but that's the just way majority of things are in this day and age.
konstantin, you make a very valid point to which I probably did not give as much thought to as I should have. but in this ever-changing world I would be inclined to think most industries/workplaces would be experiencing the same. the world is about big business and making money, not the little ants that keep the place running. unfortunate yes, but that's the just way majority of things are in this day and age.
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I have a very lucky job with great conditions and get paid too generously to do it and that most of the people I work with are too self-important to realise that - makes me arrogant and unprofessional, then guilty as charged.
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max1, didn't see your other questions there mate. Correct, i am in my twenties or early thirties. Nope, I definitely don't believe I am the smartest in the room - nor will I ever be. I haven't been stood down directly, but I was involved in an incident and it scared the absolute sh!t out of me! Again, for the purposes of anonymity I won't specify a sector but I am on a fairly busy (not the busiest or most demanding) radar sector, initial sequencing into a major aerodrome. And I actually said the middle east would have to offer me 3x what THEY currently are (i.e. 600k) for me to go over and live that particular lifestyle. So unfortunately no resignation drinks from me, your liver is safe.
I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. If I get to that, i hope my fiance/wife tells me to shut up and walk away.
I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. If I get to that, i hope my fiance/wife tells me to shut up and walk away.
Last edited by coneyisland; 7th Nov 2010 at 10:01. Reason: grammar
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CI,
You state
This would tie in with supply and demand? I am bemused, that with your 2 years experience that you think that the people around you are whingers and complainers, we have been telling ASA for over 8 years that they will have a 'Workplace Capability' problem about now and into the future.
When you have a family and the bills that go with it you may understand that our world is not only about 'big business' and 'making money'. We care passionately about looking after the airlines and their passengers.
You can talk about your choice to not do overtime, that is your and my perogative, the o/t money is good but when are ASA going to fix the problem?People are being harassed to work continual O/T. Is a 10 hour shift starting at 4am , 4 1/2 hour break restarting at 6.30pm really safe?
You might find , in the future, enjoying coaching your kids sporting team, volunteering on the sausage sizzle, running the rescue boats at sailing, being on the P&F at school, being able to attend your daughters dance concert, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, was more important than attending work on your rostered day off because the CEO was more interested in his bonus than making sure that he had the required controllers to staff the centres/towers.
You state
the world is about big business and making money
When you have a family and the bills that go with it you may understand that our world is not only about 'big business' and 'making money'. We care passionately about looking after the airlines and their passengers.
You can talk about your choice to not do overtime, that is your and my perogative, the o/t money is good but when are ASA going to fix the problem?People are being harassed to work continual O/T. Is a 10 hour shift starting at 4am , 4 1/2 hour break restarting at 6.30pm really safe?
You might find , in the future, enjoying coaching your kids sporting team, volunteering on the sausage sizzle, running the rescue boats at sailing, being on the P&F at school, being able to attend your daughters dance concert, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, was more important than attending work on your rostered day off because the CEO was more interested in his bonus than making sure that he had the required controllers to staff the centres/towers.
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CI,
The Sandpit is not that bad, 600k AUS to go there?
I can put you in contact with about 30+ Australian controllers, I know personally, who have gone O/S in the last 2 years to 'escape' ASA, who are enjoying the stable rosters, the lack of intimidation to do O/T, the lack of BS corporate speak, and who are left alone to move planes.
If Austria offers more with their tax issues we're out of here too.
The Sandpit is not that bad, 600k AUS to go there?
I can put you in contact with about 30+ Australian controllers, I know personally, who have gone O/S in the last 2 years to 'escape' ASA, who are enjoying the stable rosters, the lack of intimidation to do O/T, the lack of BS corporate speak, and who are left alone to move planes.
If Austria offers more with their tax issues we're out of here too.
Ok, perhaps he did not say it was stressful - but lets not whinge and whine about having to do checks and a medical once in a blue moon as this person above had. It's not a big bloody deal.
No that is not me, as you would see if you read my previous posts. If you don't want to do something - say no. Pretty simple. And seriously, who cares about their bonuses. Don't worry about it. Jealousy much? FFS
There are way too many ATC's who complain and moan constantly and blow things out of proportion. If you don't like it, then leave. Why don't you? Because you either have zero qualifications or zero alternative prospects. Or for those that do, you don't leave because you know deep down you are on a pretty good deal compared to most. Stop complaining or get out. Please, for my sanity and the multitude of ATC's who have PM'ed me expressing very similar sentiments to my own.
For the record, those that pm'ed (both pilots and ATC's) their support of my comments - thanks very much. Glad I'm not the only sensible one with a grip on reality. To the rest of you, its shameful that they are too worried to express their support openly - as many as easily identifiable by their posting history and wouldn't put it past some of you to hand them off 6 miles with 80 knots closing!! Sad reflection on some of you guys I'm afraid.
What was the point on making that last comment? How terribly professional of you.
Your last sentence sums it up nicely - it's a sad reflection on you.
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Pay us 10k 20k 50? more annually just because one day you might get lose the medical. Get serious.
I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do.
So many shiny new trainees. So many bitter old AsA victims. So many working elsewhere (like me).
Don't confuse a great job with a great employer.
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So many shiny new trainees.
So many bitter old AsA victims.
You might find , in the future, enjoying coaching your kids sporting team, volunteering on the sausage sizzle, running the rescue boats at sailing, being on the P&F at school, being able to attend your daughters dance concert, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, was more important than attending work on your rostered day off because the CEO was more interested in his bonus than making sure that he had the required controllers to staff the centres/towers.
