ATC Staff Shortages?
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I have to again disagree. After passing all the college milestones and progressing to final field training I was certainly never under any illusion that an endorsement would come to me on a silver platter. I was quite aware that the college phase was only the tip of the iceberg and I was about to make a massive jump in learning to handle live traffic in the real world. In terms of attitude, it was keep the head in the books and take in every piece of advice I could get from anyone with a rating. Those experienced guys/gals were fantastic and I knew I could learn plenty from them and they were to be respected. Anytime I copped criticism I didn't take it personally, just knew my OJTI was doing what was necessary to get me up to the required standard. So if I come out of the college with that sort of attitude I can't agree that the college breeds the horror trainee's I've come across. For example, the enroute trainee who was in Melb Twr on famil and told the ADC he would've done it differently. The trainee on famil with Melb Approach who subsequently fell asleep. The trainee who apparently was doing some famil on his/her sector up in Brisbane prior to commencing field training and decided he/she would reach over, grab the mouse and open a flight plan without asking the FPC plugged in at the time. The trainee that decided to leave the premises halfway through a sim check and not tell anybody.
I was told in no uncertain terms in the college that field training was a massive step up and require a big leap in the learning curve. That I should be taking every bit of advice from the experienced controllers in the field that know what it takes, have proven themselves day in day out for 10, 20,30 years etc. It's not the college or instructors that are responsible for trainees with bad attitudes - it's the trainee's themselves!!! Sometimes I think we excuse the individual too often and blame the organisation! In this case I don't think that's appropriate.
In regards to trainee's being sent back to the college multiple times or being re-coursed, I agree with you - it is a complete joke. If you fail, you fail. Move on please. But you and I both know the bank manager is trying to meet that magical (read, mythical) 100 trainees per year figure!
I was told in no uncertain terms in the college that field training was a massive step up and require a big leap in the learning curve. That I should be taking every bit of advice from the experienced controllers in the field that know what it takes, have proven themselves day in day out for 10, 20,30 years etc. It's not the college or instructors that are responsible for trainees with bad attitudes - it's the trainee's themselves!!! Sometimes I think we excuse the individual too often and blame the organisation! In this case I don't think that's appropriate.
In regards to trainee's being sent back to the college multiple times or being re-coursed, I agree with you - it is a complete joke. If you fail, you fail. Move on please. But you and I both know the bank manager is trying to meet that magical (read, mythical) 100 trainees per year figure!
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For example, the enroute trainee who was in Melb Twr on famil and told the ADC he would've done it differently. The trainee on famil with Melb Approach who subsequently fell asleep. The trainee who apparently was doing some famil on his/her sector up in Brisbane prior to commencing field training and decided he/she would reach over, grab the mouse and open a flight plan without asking the FPC plugged in at the time. The trainee that decided to leave the premises halfway through a sim check and not tell anybody.
Golden Rule
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Trainee attitudes
I have found that trainee's attitudes have gone to the dogs ever since my course entered final field training
We of course, were paragons of virtue
We of course, were paragons of virtue
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Jack-Ranga... My point is that these are individual's who clearly have a poor attitude, but I seriously doubt you can attribute that to the college. I mean honestly does every single trainee have to be told "don't tell an experienced controller how to do their job", "don't fall asleep at the console whilst on famil" etc. etc. Seriously, this is not kindergarten - instructors are not there to tell adults how they should behave professionally. That's not part of the instructors job description. If you are looking for a scapegoat, the only possible place you can look is perhaps the recruiting process. How are such unprofessional people getting a gig in the first place? But I still blame the individuals themselves. The buck stops with them. It is not the college's fault. I, as well as every other person on my course, left the college with the utmost respect for experienced controllers in the field. And we were very well aware that it was their licence they were risking to train us.
ATC's are as much to blame for the 'toxic environment' that exists within AsA at the moment as the organisation themselves. Too many people that are bitter and twisted and push that onto every new trainee that comes into the Op's Room. It is a disgrace. Since I've said what I've said thus far, I may as throw some more fuel into the fire. The majority of ATC's need to take a reality check and go back to the real world. God help them if they continually worked five or six days a week. Forty plus hours a week. And if they had to stay back a couple of hours a week - no AD rates. Shock bloody horror! I heard one guy complaining in recent days that his new roster meant coverage was such that on his sector they now have to work 1.5hrs on 45 mins off. My god!! What an outrage! ATC's generally don't realise how lucky we have it. Go and step into the average punter's shoes and see what real working life is like!
Oh, and RYAN TCAD, not Gen-Y my friend. Not that I see how it would be relevant.
For the record, for all the coneyisland haters to come, I have zero designs on becoming management. I don't love AsA or Civil Air. I have a simple philosophy in regards to work... I turn up, keep 5 miles and 1000ft and I go home, whilst being paid much too generously. Oh and I try not to let the whinging get to me! (which it clearly has!)
ATC's are as much to blame for the 'toxic environment' that exists within AsA at the moment as the organisation themselves. Too many people that are bitter and twisted and push that onto every new trainee that comes into the Op's Room. It is a disgrace. Since I've said what I've said thus far, I may as throw some more fuel into the fire. The majority of ATC's need to take a reality check and go back to the real world. God help them if they continually worked five or six days a week. Forty plus hours a week. And if they had to stay back a couple of hours a week - no AD rates. Shock bloody horror! I heard one guy complaining in recent days that his new roster meant coverage was such that on his sector they now have to work 1.5hrs on 45 mins off. My god!! What an outrage! ATC's generally don't realise how lucky we have it. Go and step into the average punter's shoes and see what real working life is like!
Oh, and RYAN TCAD, not Gen-Y my friend. Not that I see how it would be relevant.
For the record, for all the coneyisland haters to come, I have zero designs on becoming management. I don't love AsA or Civil Air. I have a simple philosophy in regards to work... I turn up, keep 5 miles and 1000ft and I go home, whilst being paid much too generously. Oh and I try not to let the whinging get to me! (which it clearly has!)
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Unfortunately he makes an arrogant but accurate assessment. Yesterday I personally witnessed a recent LA graduate who was unable to correctly apply 30 RNAV... from memory that was what...lesson 2?
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How are such unprofessional people getting a gig in the first place?
Funny that! I was thinking the same thing when I read your last post coneyisland.
Funny that! I was thinking the same thing when I read your last post coneyisland.
Unfortunately he makes an arrogant but accurate assessment.
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Yesterday I personally witnessed a recent LA graduate who was unable to correctly apply 30 RNAV...
That sort of thing is very disappointing and when trainee's such as that make it to field training, you do have to question what the Learning Academy is up to letting that sort of poor standard of trainee slip through! That's the sort of thing we can reasonably attribute to the instructors and academy. Questions are entitled to be asked.
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Riddle me this:
and:
Jeez, I don't mind impassioned argument. What doesn't compute is inconsistency.
The buck stops with them. It is not the college's fault.
That's the sort of thing we can reasonably attribute to the instructors and academy.
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'I'm a controller so i'm pretty much God'
I wondered when I tried to walk across the swimming pool I fell in and got wet.
There was obviously 'a' reason that young chap didnt get put through to field training, I dont know what it is/was, if he feels there wasn't a reason then should appeal against the decision.
A quick 'show all posts' and some simple time lining puts coneyisland at about 15 minutes as an ATC (OK, maybe 2 years). Lets see how his perceptions change with time.
Well paid? Oh spare me
This is one of the many problems OZ ATC has. They do not know their true worth and are the ones ruining their own conditions year in year out and it is weak pricks like coneyisland that are the reason.
Well paid? Oh spare me
This is one of the many problems OZ ATC has. They do not know their true worth and are the ones ruining their own conditions year in year out and it is weak pricks like coneyisland that are the reason.
If believing I have a very lucky job with great conditions and get paid too generously to do it and that most of the people I work with are too self-important to realise that - makes me arrogant and unprofessional, then guilty as charged!
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the yoof of today...
If believing I have a very lucky job with great conditions and get paid too generously to do it and that most of the people I work with are too self-important to realise that - makes me arrogant and unprofessional, then guilty as charged!
Young fella...if you think you are getting paid too much, normal custom is that you keep quiet or someone may decide to take it away from you.
I quite agree that compared to being a roofer or a labourer, ATCs do indeed get well paid.
If the roofer does a crap job, someone has to do it again, or if it passes initial muster and then fails, someone may get wet.
If you as an ATCO stuff up, you had better hope that everyone is listening to their TCAS...if they have it.
ATCOs get paid well for a very good reason...deal with it and stop trying to tell everyone that they should be lucky just to come into work every day.
I'm so over young pontificating controllers who "kiss up and sh*t down".
Answer this if you would...Do ATCOs get paid as much for working in OZ, Europe or the Middle East? Once you have done that research, ask yourself "why?"
To the guy that was chopped at the end of training...someone saw something that they didn't like. That is what they get paid for...making difficult decisions... it certainly wouldn't have been made on the spur of the moment or without serious thought.
If you have the right of appeal and you think you have been hard done by, appeal by all means. Remember that the college will have kept ALL reports filed on your progress, ask yourself do I really want to go there? Good luck with whatever path you choose.
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Overpaid!!!!
Coney Island,
your reference to how easy we ATCs have it says a lot. Do you not get what we do every day? In a previous life I was a tradie, and as such I worked Monday to Friday, no public holidays, no shift work, no medical required to retain my qualifications, no 6 monthly performance checks.
I have now been working shift work for almost 25 yrs, I have to pass regular medical checks and regular performance checks.
If I make a mistake, the results can be pretty bl***y stressful- both for how I feel about making a mistake and for the consequences that follow. I guess you probably haven't been stood down yet, might be worth talking to someone who has.
It would also be worth looking around to assess how old the more senior controllers are and how many there are of an advanced age- a lot of us don't stay or can't stay till the general retirement age, hence our remuneration needs to be sufficient to give us some options when we're put out to pasture.
PS I have looked at the conditions should I return to my trade, and I wouldn't necessarily be looking at a drop in take home pay.....
your reference to how easy we ATCs have it says a lot. Do you not get what we do every day?
In a previous life I was a tradie, and as such I worked Monday to Friday, no public holidays, no shift work, no medical required to retain my qualifications, no 6 monthly performance checks. I have now been working shift work for almost 25 yrs, I have to pass regular medical checks and regular performance checks.
If I make a mistake, the results can be pretty bl***y stressful- both for how I feel about making a mistake and for the consequences that follow. I guess you probably haven't been stood down yet, might be worth talking to someone who has.
It would also be worth looking around to assess how old the more senior controllers are and how many there are of an advanced age- a lot of us don't stay or can't stay till the general retirement age, hence our remuneration needs to be sufficient to give us some options when we're put out to pasture.
PS I have looked at the conditions should I return to my trade, and I wouldn't necessarily be looking at a drop in take home pay.....
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Check the tax returns of any good plumbing contractor.
Tell me you know a poor Turd Burgler
ATC are underpaid, or if the pay is almost acceptable they are over worked and trashed by roster/call ins.
Comments from having 4 or more as personal friends.
Tell me you know a poor Turd Burgler
ATC are underpaid, or if the pay is almost acceptable they are over worked and trashed by roster/call ins.
Comments from having 4 or more as personal friends.
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ATC's are underpaid. If they were paid appropriately then there wouldn't be a shortage. Yes, it's really that simple!
It's shortsighted management to not value your personnel assets correctly.
It's shortsighted management to not value your personnel assets correctly.
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What i cant understand is the fact that you have to study down in ML on $30K odd before tax for a good year or so. That kind of limits people applying for this gig to being from ML and living at home? Or having an understanding partner or a great bank manager.
Next they'll be asking you to pay for your training.
Next they'll be asking you to pay for your training.