ATC Staff Shortages?
Twister, I'm sorry to hear of your situation but welcome to the world of ATC (in Australia at least). You're only as good as your last shift or check (in particular). Maybe an exaggeration but not a huge one. For better or worse that's what exams are about, perform or not.
Have to agree with ferris that the combined ops assessment is a step forward. But one instructor between two trainees is totally ****e.
Have to agree with ferris that the combined ops assessment is a step forward. But one instructor between two trainees is totally ****e.
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I have to disagree with coneyisland, for me the college phase was tough tough tough. I'm glad they didn't do combined ops when I went through, because I would really have struggled.
However for me the final field training was relatively straightforward in comparison. It must depend on where you get posted.
However for me the final field training was relatively straightforward in comparison. It must depend on where you get posted.
Let's be perfectly blunt, if you know what you are doing then the college phase is pretty bloody easy. I know many will disagree, but the egocentric people this job attracts unfortunately like to make mountains out of molehills; blow their own trumpet etc. It is not that hard seriously.
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Mr Griffo
Right up until two get a little close for media comfort ......... then BAM, in comes four eyes, an election, and political appeasement .... Voila
.... 24/7 remote surveillance approach services with less safe class E
Cost effective - bzzzz fail
Safer - bzzzz fail
More efficient - bzzzz fail
.. and the real kicker
What will that airspace become if the service is not available? - TIBA and, as per other TMA's, likely to be - a Restricted Area during for traffic metering
Yes, all in all a great idea when ATC's (that can hold endorsements) are becoming as rare as rocking horse poo
Airspace management brought to you by four eyes on a soap box!
Funny thing is, this exercise proves the theory. It does not matter what the issue, as long as there is perceived to be an issue in need of fixing, four eyes will argue 'a' case, even if it is inconsistent and nonsensical!
But hey, its no skin off our noses
'All stns this is ****tybags 11, rolling Rwy 16 for dep to the south, climbing to ...'
It may not work at a 'primary' airport, but there are some places where it could be done...and it has been
It may not work at a 'primary' airport, but there are some places where it could be done...and it has been
.... 24/7 remote surveillance approach services with less safe class E
Cost effective - bzzzz fail
Safer - bzzzz fail
More efficient - bzzzz fail
.. and the real kicker
What will that airspace become if the service is not available? - TIBA and, as per other TMA's, likely to be - a Restricted Area during for traffic metering
Yes, all in all a great idea when ATC's (that can hold endorsements) are becoming as rare as rocking horse poo
Airspace management brought to you by four eyes on a soap box!
Funny thing is, this exercise proves the theory. It does not matter what the issue, as long as there is perceived to be an issue in need of fixing, four eyes will argue 'a' case, even if it is inconsistent and nonsensical!
But hey, its no skin off our noses
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I highly doubt you'll find many controllers doing crazy hours to 'prop up the system' in favor to ASA, more likely for their own back pocket.
Despite what many project (especially ASA managers), most ATCs are highly dedicated and professional; they are unfortunately their own worst enemies (from an industrial point of view). There was some 100,000+ hours of overtime last financial year across the ATC group, spread that out over the operational workforce of around 800 and it's a sh!tload each. The vast majority of overtime was not due to sickleave, it was due to short staffing.
I can see the Press release(s) if there is even a hint of industrial action when negotiations begin early next year... Greedy, huge salaries, generous rostered time off, lots of annual leave etc. etc. Big highlight in difference between O/T worked and TIBA's in 2010 and 2011, sickleave spike... Industrial thuggery... holding a gun to the nation... etc...
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Seen on the CANSO website:
"Airservices Australia is currently recruiting for 2011 training courses. We are actively seeking to recruit previously trained and rated Air Traffic Controllers."
However you have to be either an Ausie or a Kiwi. Do you think everybody will come back now?
"Airservices Australia is currently recruiting for 2011 training courses. We are actively seeking to recruit previously trained and rated Air Traffic Controllers."
However you have to be either an Ausie or a Kiwi. Do you think everybody will come back now?
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I can see the Press release(s) if there is even a hint of industrial action when negotiations begin early next year... Greedy, huge salaries, generous rostered time off, lots of annual leave etc. etc. Big highlight in difference between O/T worked and TIBA's in 2010 and 2011, sickleave spike... Industrial thuggery... holding a gun to the nation... etc...
Most people wouldn't want your job for quids, and even if they did there's a very small percentage of people with the correct mental wiring. It's not like most other aviation careers where there's a huge queue of eligible applicants who'll roger a cactus for the chance of a job. I don't see why your bargaining position is weak; few people are capable of doing the job and it takes 12-18 months to train the few competent candidates. What can they do to you? The ASA management Leviathan depends on Controllers for its very existance. Even foreign scab labour would take 12 months to train and it would give you the other valuable media weapon to play with; rampant Aussie nationalism.
If the controllers I know have a fault, it's a lack of inner nastiness and political guile that's necessary for fighting industrial campaigns against management snivellers who will do anything to meet their targets. That's the attitude you need to match, and helping your colleagues and preventing TIBAs (while honourable goals) only hinder you further. If one of you makes an error due to fatigue s/he'll wear it, not ASA. The Nuremberg Defence didn't work at Nuremberg and it certainly won't work against butt covering managers and media hysteria in the event of an incident.
Just my 0.02 pesos, but you can't fix anything with hope or righteous anger. Good luck. You do a great job.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 29th Oct 2010 at 10:22.
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Then take P.I.A. the moment it is available not fluff around with warnings.
ASA caved the moment P.I.A. was voted for. Everybody knew they would. Remember that something like 96.5% voted for it last time around. ASA's industrial officers/negotiators (or whatever they are called) are gutless weasels who donot have the courage of their convictions. When push comes to shove, ATC's do.
ASA caved the moment P.I.A. was voted for. Everybody knew they would. Remember that something like 96.5% voted for it last time around. ASA's industrial officers/negotiators (or whatever they are called) are gutless weasels who donot have the courage of their convictions. When push comes to shove, ATC's do.
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Hey mods, I asked a specific question relating to the standard of service recently recieved whilst operating into MEL, I note with interest that it has disappeared...I would enjoy a response to my question, as ATC shortages also affect flightcrews, I also think it has some relevance to this discussion, even if perhaps this thread has turned into an industrial relations debate rather than an operational one.
Please either re-instate my post (question) or explain to me here in the public domain, why my post was "moderated" (removed)
Please either re-instate my post (question) or explain to me here in the public domain, why my post was "moderated" (removed)
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mrtwister, check your PM's
Coneyisland, your post #37 would be one of the most appalling things I've read on this forum. Did it make you feel good writing that ?
Coneyisland, your post #37 would be one of the most appalling things I've read on this forum. Did it make you feel good writing that ?
Another college failure who can't conceive that they just couldn't do the job. Blame everything else. Cry me a river please. You need to just face up to the fact that you obviously were not up to scratch. As you yourself stated, we need controllers desperately - what with all the impending retirements and departures to other ANSP's - so do you really think that AsA would knock you back and show you the door if they thought you were capable? After all THEIR time and money invested over the duration. Seriously, reality check please.
Last edited by C-change; 3rd Nov 2010 at 13:18.
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C-Change,
Why so appalling?? In answer to your question, writing it didn't give me an emotive response (good or bad) whatsoever. Until now that is. Knowing it is THE MOST APPALLING thing you have ever read on this ENTIRE forum makes me quite proud. I managed that mantle without even trying. Makes me think of what response I could achieve if I really let fly and expressed my opinions entirely. So thanks very much for the compliment 
I was merely trying to express the fact that once again we have a trainee attempting to paint a picture that he/she was strung along for entire year (oh sorry, let's be factual - 54weeks) believing he/she was on top of it and more than capable of doing the job only to be brutally cut without warning at the last hurdle. Given my experiences, this is extremely hard to believe and to outsiders looking in, it puts the entire ab-initio training process in a very bad light.
Before all the AsA haters (and on that note people seriously get a grip and get a life. go back into the real world, get a real job and you will realise how great us ATC's have it!) start on me here, I am very aware of the flaws in the college. 1 instructor between 2 students is not ideal. A former bank manager who still reads ATM as Automatic Teller Machine rather than Air Traffic Management is not ideal. The shortage of instructors to train students is not ideal. That is just to name a few.
However, the instructors I dealt with in my time at the college, as well as those that have gone to or come back since, have all been fantastic. I have not seen one instance of instructors leading students on to believe that they are on top of things when they actually not. In fact it is has been the opposite. One very famous example is the student who, after yet another sim run leaving a lot to be desired, had "Get a Clue!" in easy to read capital letters (among other things) plastered on his/her feedback booklet. If that doesn't express to you that things aren't quite right, I don't know what does. (And don't start on the "oh what poor instructing technique" train.. sometimes you have to give them the hard cold facts straight up, considering he/she had been told repeatedly of the same error's he/she was making!)
During my time in the college I never once saw somebody get cut that didn't know they were struggling. The instructor's make it very clear if you happen to behind the 8-ball!!! They are most certainly not in the practice of giving false impressions to trainees. They are quite aware of the impact the course has on trainee's who have switched careers, taken a huge risk and are getting paid very little! Hence, my slight disbelief at mr. twister's claims!
For the record, I am not completely heartless and do sympathise with mr. twister and I am sorry he didn't get through to the field and an endorsement. Truly. We need everyone we can get! I also am disgusted with his poor treatment by the college in having the course extended for 12 weeks without any compensation. Mr. Twister, the very best of luck with your future endeavours.
Coneyisland, your post #37 would be one of the most appalling things I've read on this forum. Did it make you feel good writing that ?
I was merely trying to express the fact that once again we have a trainee attempting to paint a picture that he/she was strung along for entire year (oh sorry, let's be factual - 54weeks) believing he/she was on top of it and more than capable of doing the job only to be brutally cut without warning at the last hurdle. Given my experiences, this is extremely hard to believe and to outsiders looking in, it puts the entire ab-initio training process in a very bad light.
Before all the AsA haters (and on that note people seriously get a grip and get a life. go back into the real world, get a real job and you will realise how great us ATC's have it!) start on me here, I am very aware of the flaws in the college. 1 instructor between 2 students is not ideal. A former bank manager who still reads ATM as Automatic Teller Machine rather than Air Traffic Management is not ideal. The shortage of instructors to train students is not ideal. That is just to name a few.
However, the instructors I dealt with in my time at the college, as well as those that have gone to or come back since, have all been fantastic. I have not seen one instance of instructors leading students on to believe that they are on top of things when they actually not. In fact it is has been the opposite. One very famous example is the student who, after yet another sim run leaving a lot to be desired, had "Get a Clue!" in easy to read capital letters (among other things) plastered on his/her feedback booklet. If that doesn't express to you that things aren't quite right, I don't know what does. (And don't start on the "oh what poor instructing technique" train.. sometimes you have to give them the hard cold facts straight up, considering he/she had been told repeatedly of the same error's he/she was making!)
During my time in the college I never once saw somebody get cut that didn't know they were struggling. The instructor's make it very clear if you happen to behind the 8-ball!!! They are most certainly not in the practice of giving false impressions to trainees. They are quite aware of the impact the course has on trainee's who have switched careers, taken a huge risk and are getting paid very little! Hence, my slight disbelief at mr. twister's claims!
For the record, I am not completely heartless and do sympathise with mr. twister and I am sorry he didn't get through to the field and an endorsement. Truly. We need everyone we can get! I also am disgusted with his poor treatment by the college in having the course extended for 12 weeks without any compensation. Mr. Twister, the very best of luck with your future endeavours.
Last edited by coneyisland; 4th Nov 2010 at 11:58. Reason: grammar
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Coneyisland,
If your going to quote me, at least get it right, I said that your post was ONE of the most apalling things, not THE most appalling.
I've re-read your original post and I still find it to be a heartless, un-sympathetic, kick in the guts, no matter how hard you try to justify your comments. He doesn't need to cop that from indiviuals such as yourself, who obviously did well on course.
If your going to quote me, at least get it right, I said that your post was ONE of the most apalling things, not THE most appalling.
I've re-read your original post and I still find it to be a heartless, un-sympathetic, kick in the guts, no matter how hard you try to justify your comments. He doesn't need to cop that from indiviuals such as yourself, who obviously did well on course.
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C-Change,
You are correct. I did misquote you and I apologise. However, I don't apologise for my comments. I'm certain Mr. Twister wasn't on here searching for sympathy. Just posting his opinions/views in a forum that allows healthy expression and debate on such topics. I am simply presenting my own views/opinions and the other side of the coin so to speak.
If he takes offence at such from an anonymous person on an anonymous forum, well he clearly doesn't have the heart for ATC does he.
You are correct. I did misquote you and I apologise. However, I don't apologise for my comments. I'm certain Mr. Twister wasn't on here searching for sympathy. Just posting his opinions/views in a forum that allows healthy expression and debate on such topics. I am simply presenting my own views/opinions and the other side of the coin so to speak.
If he takes offence at such from an anonymous person on an anonymous forum, well he clearly doesn't have the heart for ATC does he.
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Either way, there is a serious dis-connect between what trainees out of the college are told and the reality of on the job training. I've seen 2 trainees out of the last 7 or 8 rate on our row.
Trainees are being sent back to the college multiple times after field training in attempt to get a rating. WTF? Why is this happening? It didn't happen in the past up until a year or two ago. On occasion trainees would be re-coursed after failing the college NOT THE FIELD.
The last two years of trainees attitudes have been lacking to say the least. It comes from the complete lack of respect that emanates from the bank teller trainer toward the ATC profession. If you hate ATC's that much why are you there?
Trainees are being sent back to the college multiple times after field training in attempt to get a rating. WTF? Why is this happening? It didn't happen in the past up until a year or two ago. On occasion trainees would be re-coursed after failing the college NOT THE FIELD.
The last two years of trainees attitudes have been lacking to say the least. It comes from the complete lack of respect that emanates from the bank teller trainer toward the ATC profession. If you hate ATC's that much why are you there?