ATC Staff Shortages?
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It`s called a work/life balance which is a thing of the past these days for some groups.
It is actually the "Life / Work balance".
Force yourselves to say it, it feels good to put work second.
Join Date: Jul 2010
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I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. If I get to that, i hope my fiance/wife tells me to shut up and walk away.
When you have childeren and are working 4 weekends out of 6 and your wife is dragging your kids around the sport/activities, she will, one day get jack of it.
When you're on a group with about 12 other people and 2 are allowed on rec leave at any one time, that's rec leave once every 6 Christmas/Easter/Australia day etc. Did I mention your wife WILL eventually get the sh!ts with this? You kids WILL get the sh!ts with this too. You may be lucky enough to be rostered off, me, I've got a large family and like to catch up (they're all interstate, another joy of this job!)
Despite your making light of the medical situation, those of us who have been here for a significant period of time know people who've lost their operational career due medical reasons.
Despite your making light of the check every six months for a few hours, experienced controllers have been stood down on these checks, not for having an incidents either. Heard of LOEQ? I know a few controllers that have lost their careers through this.
I've also known a few controllers that have had to attend coroners courts, there but for the grace of god go I, I'm not religious by the way but I understand the concept.
These are a few of the reasons why you are paid the way you are.
You might want to have a think about Uberlingen.
Young, dumb and full of come. (Clint Eastwood?)
I work 4 days shifts, 4 days off, 5 days shifts, 3 days off. Then it starts again. In dec i have 5 days off in a row. I do not have a doggo until next year.
Next year i have around 90 to 100 days off of leave. because i take the 4 day part off. This turns into 11 days, thus for 4 days leave i get 11 days off.
I get paid about 2x what i got in aus. There is busy traffic but i don't have some asshole telling me how I do my work. Cost of living is lower too.
The grass is so frigen green i am hooked on the stuff, so I won't be back whining on the aus consoles for a long time.
Enjoy your doggos.
Next year i have around 90 to 100 days off of leave. because i take the 4 day part off. This turns into 11 days, thus for 4 days leave i get 11 days off.
I get paid about 2x what i got in aus. There is busy traffic but i don't have some asshole telling me how I do my work. Cost of living is lower too.
The grass is so frigen green i am hooked on the stuff, so I won't be back whining on the aus consoles for a long time.
Enjoy your doggos.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: australia
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CI,
Could you post a few examples of the gripes and whinges you hear from the controllers around you, and why you think they are unimportant?
Maybe delve a bit deeper and put yourself in the shoes of those people complaining, and understand how long they may have been in the job, the promises they have been made, for how many years they have been made, and what the Enterprise Bargaining AGREEMENT (signed by ASA) is SUPPOSED to deliver to them and ASA.
It may not be important to you now, but it will be.
P.S. I have NEVER heard of anyone deliberately setting someone up with closing speed like you allude to. I've had the inadvertent situation occur and told them to fix it before I will accept the aircraft, this says more about you that you even think this is a likely scenario.
Could you post a few examples of the gripes and whinges you hear from the controllers around you, and why you think they are unimportant?
Maybe delve a bit deeper and put yourself in the shoes of those people complaining, and understand how long they may have been in the job, the promises they have been made, for how many years they have been made, and what the Enterprise Bargaining AGREEMENT (signed by ASA) is SUPPOSED to deliver to them and ASA.
It may not be important to you now, but it will be.
P.S. I have NEVER heard of anyone deliberately setting someone up with closing speed like you allude to. I've had the inadvertent situation occur and told them to fix it before I will accept the aircraft, this says more about you that you even think this is a likely scenario.
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Dear ConeyIsland,
I understand that you are sure of how unsuitable I am for the job you so easily trained for, however, I assure you, none of the instructors voiced any concerns over my progress, training or demonstrated controlling techniques leading up to the exam. I predominantly had 2 different instructors sitting with me throughout the runs and their feedback was generally, busy run handled well, main criticism was about ensuring coord and coms with other agencies was not in any way unclear or ambiguous.
There was, however, one run which was supervised by an instructor who, to put it carefully, has quite a say in a trainee's progress. This particular instructor was very involved in the development of the Combined Ops unit and was clearly very proud of the conflicts in the runs. Having trumped the 'sting in the tail' that this particular controller constantly talked about by proving two tracks to be longitudinal, and then stating that (given the time at the crossing point was 9 minutes) I should be able to get a distance standard either by RNAV or GPS. He then told me I can't do that because the trail aircraft was not going through a common waypoint (one was on ADSB flex track). I then stated that the lead aircraft was tracking from blah blah and that, as they were not yet past their crossing point I could use blah blah as the reference point. I was told I couldn't do that because it's too complicated. I then begrudgingly moved on to what the instructor was obviously wanting me to do and decided to climb one aircraft over the other with a requirement. I displayed both aircraft's routes and measured a waypoint well outside the area of conflict (as we were told we could do by the other instructors supervising the unit) to be 51 NM from the ADSB aircraft's route. I then used the trail aircraft's time (which was PETO'd) at the waypoint, subtracted 5 minutes and stated the requirement to be "reach FL380 by time 12". The instructor then said I had no idea what I was doing, stopped the run and proceeded to tell me that I was 'pulling numbers out of nowhere' and attempting to use standards incorrectly. The instructors opinion of my abilities at this point in the training was clearly not favourable. Given that I was simply doing as others had instructed and allowed I felt rather frustrated and annoyed by the whole situation.
Now this is just one run in a whole unit so normally this wouldn't be an issue. However, as I said, this particular instructor swings a heavy hammer and low and behold, who turns up on my right shoulder for the exam?
My point is, too subjective. The rest of this story is lengthy and I feel I have probably given away too much already (if the rumours of ASA trawlers on here are true) so I will leave it there.
I understand that you are sure of how unsuitable I am for the job you so easily trained for, however, I assure you, none of the instructors voiced any concerns over my progress, training or demonstrated controlling techniques leading up to the exam. I predominantly had 2 different instructors sitting with me throughout the runs and their feedback was generally, busy run handled well, main criticism was about ensuring coord and coms with other agencies was not in any way unclear or ambiguous.
There was, however, one run which was supervised by an instructor who, to put it carefully, has quite a say in a trainee's progress. This particular instructor was very involved in the development of the Combined Ops unit and was clearly very proud of the conflicts in the runs. Having trumped the 'sting in the tail' that this particular controller constantly talked about by proving two tracks to be longitudinal, and then stating that (given the time at the crossing point was 9 minutes) I should be able to get a distance standard either by RNAV or GPS. He then told me I can't do that because the trail aircraft was not going through a common waypoint (one was on ADSB flex track). I then stated that the lead aircraft was tracking from blah blah and that, as they were not yet past their crossing point I could use blah blah as the reference point. I was told I couldn't do that because it's too complicated. I then begrudgingly moved on to what the instructor was obviously wanting me to do and decided to climb one aircraft over the other with a requirement. I displayed both aircraft's routes and measured a waypoint well outside the area of conflict (as we were told we could do by the other instructors supervising the unit) to be 51 NM from the ADSB aircraft's route. I then used the trail aircraft's time (which was PETO'd) at the waypoint, subtracted 5 minutes and stated the requirement to be "reach FL380 by time 12". The instructor then said I had no idea what I was doing, stopped the run and proceeded to tell me that I was 'pulling numbers out of nowhere' and attempting to use standards incorrectly. The instructors opinion of my abilities at this point in the training was clearly not favourable. Given that I was simply doing as others had instructed and allowed I felt rather frustrated and annoyed by the whole situation.
Now this is just one run in a whole unit so normally this wouldn't be an issue. However, as I said, this particular instructor swings a heavy hammer and low and behold, who turns up on my right shoulder for the exam?
My point is, too subjective. The rest of this story is lengthy and I feel I have probably given away too much already (if the rumours of ASA trawlers on here are true) so I will leave it there.
Join Date: May 2002
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CI
If more people take your line, it will mean more delays for the airlines.
And from me
i.e. 'I have no personal interest in the industry I'm in'.
Again,'I have no personal interest in the industry I'm in'. Somebody elses problem.
Enlightenment Grasshopper? I'll only do this job for $600k tax free, but money isn't important.
Coneyisland maybe youve had a bit of a think and modified your ideas,congratulations. Either way, from an embittered 'old fart' I love Gen Y'ers. They get the blood circulating.
For the record, as it obvious you believe I am one of these controllers who take every AD going and bend myself backwards to help AsA - that is incorrect. I say 'Nup', it is not that hard and more people should do it instead of whinging all the time.
And from me
Could you post a few examples of the gripes and whinges you hear from the controllers around you, and why you think they are unimportant?
For the record, for all the coneyisland haters to come, I have zero designs on becoming management. I don't love AsA or Civil Air. I have a simple philosophy in regards to work... I turn up, keep 5 miles and 1000ft and I go home, whilst being paid much too generously. Oh and I try not to let the whinging get to me! (which it clearly has!)
You and others think your 'services' are worth more. Fine. Entitled to that opinion. My own opinion is I do not think we are worth more. I am appreciative and thankful. Simple. I am presenting my differing opinion to the endless complaining that is evident here and in the op's room.
I am so glad to be "immature" - when immature means I'm grateful, happy and content. Much better than being bitter and twisted like too many of my colleagues.
I am so glad to be "immature" - when immature means I'm grateful, happy and content. Much better than being bitter and twisted like too many of my colleagues.
And I actually said the middle east would have to offer me 3x what THEY currently are (i.e. 600k) for me to go over and live that particular lifestyle. So unfortunately no resignation drinks from me, your liver is safe.
I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. If I get to that, i hope my fiance/wife tells me to shut up and walk away.
I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. If I get to that, i hope my fiance/wife tells me to shut up and walk away.
Coneyisland maybe youve had a bit of a think and modified your ideas,congratulations. Either way, from an embittered 'old fart' I love Gen Y'ers. They get the blood circulating.
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How I laughed...
Regarding Max1s comment to Coneyisland about ME salaries...
a mate of mine tells a joke, it goes something like:
guy to girl, "would you sleep with me if I offered you a million dollars?" Girl, "yes of course"
Ok says guy, what about for $20?..no way says the affronted girl, what kind of a girl do you think I am?
Guy says, "I think we have determined what kind of girl you are, now we are just haggling about the price".
We should make sure this thread doesn't disappear, so that we can quote from it in a couple of years when it dries out behind CI's ears.
a mate of mine tells a joke, it goes something like:
guy to girl, "would you sleep with me if I offered you a million dollars?" Girl, "yes of course"
Ok says guy, what about for $20?..no way says the affronted girl, what kind of a girl do you think I am?
Guy says, "I think we have determined what kind of girl you are, now we are just haggling about the price".
We should make sure this thread doesn't disappear, so that we can quote from it in a couple of years when it dries out behind CI's ears.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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I've been lurking on here for the last few years and can't believe these threads are still occuring.
"ATC staff are on good pay" or variations of that theme.... Cr*p!
After 19 years with that disaster of an employer AsA, I finally left and changed careers.
I had worked in the old "gloom room" and the shiny new TAAATS system. I had started as a lowly Flight Data, then trained as an ATC (I withdrew from training, sadly before rating). Went off to be a shift supervisor for the FDs and then one of the 3 S&Ts during the transition. Then was one of those FDCs sitting in the corner of the room getting not much in the way of attention but a lot of flack when things go wrong.
In that time the CAA, later ASA took me from callow youth, taught me initiative,
teamwork,
responsibility,
leadership (through very good examples e.g Mr Burnett and Mr Gordon and some very bad examples (wont name them))
humility - that one was learnt the hard way
Along the way I aquired a Uni degree and the opportunity to work with some truly wonderful and dedicated people.... both of them.
But evenutally my family needs changed and I required the freedom to work part time. Sadly the employer had become a little ...er... rigid in its "unofficial policies" and part-time work was just not possible. So, I looked outside the warm and comfy home that I had inhabited for the last 2 decades and found that the rest of the world had moved forward and left poor old AsA a long way behind.
It turned out that all the skills, experience, corporate knowledge that I had acquired in those years just weren't things that AsA needed (or apparently wanted) to retain. Imagine my suprise when I left and found that these skills (not the corporate knowledge of course) were highly valued in the outside world.
Even though I had no real experience in my new career, I was offered a job that paid the same money per hour as the one I had left behind. BUT, no doggos, no weekends, no public holidays. Every Christmas off.
That was all very very nice
.
But then it got better. It turns out that there are employers who appreciate the work you do and offer the opportunity for training to do it better! Who'd have thought?? Then they thank you for attending and making the most of it!!
I miss working in the aviation industry and ATC in particular, but don't tell me that ATCs are well paid. With 3 years of experience in this career, and working only 3 days a week I am still pulling in 70K without any shift penalties and associated health costs.
For those who can, get out asap. You won't look back.
"ATC staff are on good pay" or variations of that theme.... Cr*p!
After 19 years with that disaster of an employer AsA, I finally left and changed careers.
I had worked in the old "gloom room" and the shiny new TAAATS system. I had started as a lowly Flight Data, then trained as an ATC (I withdrew from training, sadly before rating). Went off to be a shift supervisor for the FDs and then one of the 3 S&Ts during the transition. Then was one of those FDCs sitting in the corner of the room getting not much in the way of attention but a lot of flack when things go wrong.
In that time the CAA, later ASA took me from callow youth, taught me initiative,
teamwork,
responsibility,
leadership (through very good examples e.g Mr Burnett and Mr Gordon and some very bad examples (wont name them
))humility - that one was learnt the hard way
Along the way I aquired a Uni degree and the opportunity to work with some truly wonderful and dedicated people.... both of them.
But evenutally my family needs changed and I required the freedom to work part time. Sadly the employer had become a little ...er... rigid in its "unofficial policies" and part-time work was just not possible. So, I looked outside the warm and comfy home that I had inhabited for the last 2 decades and found that the rest of the world had moved forward and left poor old AsA a long way behind.
It turned out that all the skills, experience, corporate knowledge that I had acquired in those years just weren't things that AsA needed (or apparently wanted) to retain. Imagine my suprise when I left and found that these skills (not the corporate knowledge of course) were highly valued in the outside world.
Even though I had no real experience in my new career, I was offered a job that paid the same money per hour as the one I had left behind. BUT, no doggos, no weekends, no public holidays. Every Christmas off.
That was all very very nice
.But then it got better. It turns out that there are employers who appreciate the work you do and offer the opportunity for training to do it better! Who'd have thought?? Then they thank you for attending and making the most of it!!
I miss working in the aviation industry and ATC in particular, but don't tell me that ATCs are well paid. With 3 years of experience in this career, and working only 3 days a week I am still pulling in 70K without any shift penalties and associated health costs.
For those who can, get out asap. You won't look back.
Join Date: Jul 2010
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And I actually said the middle east would have to offer me 3x what THEY currently are (i.e. 600k) for me to go over and live that particular lifestyle. So unfortunately no resignation drinks from me, your liver is safe.
I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. If I get to that, i hope my fiance/wife tells me to shut up and walk away.
Enlightenment Grasshopper? I'll only do this job for $600k tax free, but money isn't important.
I can see where most of you are leading - perhaps my views and perspectives will change in the future. We shall see. I just hope I don't let it get to me day in and day out like so many appear to do. If I get to that, i hope my fiance/wife tells me to shut up and walk away.
Enlightenment Grasshopper? I'll only do this job for $600k tax free, but money isn't important.
For me, I need some serious compensation to do that. Hence, if it was about money, I'd be on my way. Clearly its not! Mikk_13
The grass is so frigen green i am hooked on the stuff, so I won't be back whining on the aus consoles for a long time.
Enjoy your doggos.
Enjoy your doggos.
Max1,
If more people take your line, it will mean more delays for the airlines.
Someone earlier brought up the issue of respect shown by trainees to controllers, worth remembering it goes both ways ladies. The remarks made towards ab-initio's, or indeed in their presence, sometimes is shameful. The number of time's I've heard controllers openly expressing disgust at the skill level of trainees is amazing. Openly ridiculing them whilst they're within earshot. How do you think this affects their confidence?? I am the first to admit that I think the college training definitely leaves a lot to be desired, I wish I had a longer course, 1on 1 sim training, more training in regards to appreciating the other side (i.e. pilot operations/workloads etc. in way of flightdeck famil). Hopefully this improves in the future. But it is not the poor ab's fault for the training course they receive. Openly saying how pathetic they are does little to help them achieve a rating. If you have some advice for them, why not spend 5 minutes sharing that with them. Instead of ridiculing them and making them feel like sh!t. Not everyone can be God like you remember
Some of us are mere mortals.Another complaint often heard is the sick leave arrangements, i.e 8 single days w/o med cert. per yr. 15 days total, over that = interview with manager. I have a few close friends that are nurses, spending all day everyday around sick people - go and speak to them about unfair sick leave policies!!! Yes ladies, I am aware I have to be 100% fit for duty everytime I plug in. But AsA have to protect themselves from shirkers as well, sick leave as required is easily abused. This is fair. If you are off 2 consecutive days you need to get a certificate, big whoop - it's fair enough. 8 single days in a rolling 12 months. Fair. Honestly, would AsA want to employ a clown who calls in with headaches/24 hr viruses/the runs 25 days a yr. Lets say such person is replaced on AD for an 8 hour shift each time by an ab on the lowest pay scale. That amounts to nearly 16k per yr in overtime. Double that if you are pulling guys on the top scale in. This system allows fairness for ATC's, whilst allowing AsA to prevent the shirkers from rorting the system. If you have nothing to hide you won't cry about having an interview over your sick leave if required.
Despite your making light of the medical situation, those of us who have been here for a significant period of time know people who've lost their operational career due medical reasons.
Despite your making light of the check every six months for a few hours, experienced controllers have been stood down on these checks, not for having an incidents either. Heard of LOEQ? I know a few controllers that have lost their careers through this.
Despite your making light of the check every six months for a few hours, experienced controllers have been stood down on these checks, not for having an incidents either. Heard of LOEQ? I know a few controllers that have lost their careers through this.
Corneyisland,
You said "I, as well as every other person on my course, left the college with the utmost respect for experienced controllers in the field."
Any other bits of advise for the unwashed!
Cheers
You said "I, as well as every other person on my course, left the college with the utmost respect for experienced controllers in the field."
Any other bits of advise for the unwashed!
Cheers
Amusing putting the 'r' in coneyisland, you're a clever boy indeed and I'm glad you find me amusing. In regards to actual work, I respect every one of you guys that have a rating and trust me, I am always willing to listen to those who are more experienced and skilled than I am. No lack of respect there my friend. But in regards to other things, like an appreciation of what you have in regards to conditions etc compared to the average Joe - I am more than happy to disagee and express an opinion. Hardly means I don't respect people in regards to their controlling!
Oh, and max1 in regards to the comment about handing off closing, I am just passing on the sentiments expressed to me privately by those people who agree with much of what I say but are too scared to express so for fears of reprisal in the workplace. I don't believe anyone would actually give off the set-up I suggested, but I have heard stories, and seen first-hand, of people watching an incident (whether it be a BoS or BoC or something else) unfold and rather than intervening and ding'ing the ATC concerned, notifies the SM/ALM/front desk and dob's them in. I'm certain you would have to finally agree with me that the above is completely unprofessional and disgusting behaviour. So I understand why people are unwilling to challenge the, ahem, "dominant" males that are so outwardly negative about everything!
Well all, I'm sure there is plenty here for you to be getting on my back with. Crying your outrage and the like. What did someone say to me earlier - I'm young, dumb and full of cum ? Well folks, you may believe I am naive - but goddamn it, at least I am happy. I pity you poor folk.
