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Merged: Jetstar EBA 4

Old 26th Feb 2008, 08:11
  #201 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
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Looking at how the "merger" aka "takeover" of Australian Airlines by QF, the seniority was so biased in favour of QF (AIPA) - how the "Y" list could ever be seen as advantaging anyone but the QF group is just not realistic. TN guys were shafted.

"....If youíre worried about some Mainline guy getting your command then relax..."

And I suppose the cheque's in the mail too - You are bloody right, a lot of us are worried if AIPA ever managed to get a toehold in JQ.

As far as hearing from Ian Woods or AIPA propoganda, yes - read his comments and listened to him personally. He is only trying to keep as much of what's left of QF as he can for his members only. If he thinks he can stand up and deliver such condescending statements about how much of the 787 (and by implication future fleet) flying JQ pilots will be allowed to do, he and the AIPA COM need to think again.

As I said above, it's time for Jetstar pilots to think as a united single group away from AFAP and AIPA. We would have a membership of over 1000 pilots by 2012 IF we got together now.

Yes - I was with EK.
Led Zeppelin is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 08:47
  #202 (permalink)  
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So what is the answer Led Zep? Have 2 groups bidding for flying by trying to undercut each other? That is what QF management wants. By segmenting the business, the CEO if I remember right has stated he wants various groups to compete aggressively for capital allocation amongst the group.

For me personally, if they want to undercut, they can have it. I am at the stage in life I would rather stay an F/O (should have stayed an S/O to be honest but that is another story) than go for a command on crap conditions.

From what I understand, the ultimate goal of AIPA is to have a common group seniority list. While it may cost me some, and have some Jetstar people in front of me in the future, I am not worried if short term pain leads to long term gain in the next 30 years or so.

Until everybody in this country unites, no matter how painful the process is, the competition among ourselves will lead to much more pain through the course of most of our careers.

Spend a little now to save a lot in the future. We are not managers whose bonus depends on this years income, we are people in this for the long haul who want a sustainable future. The energy spent competing against each other could be better directed fighting management.

As one group, imagine the extra power we would hold over the company if we both had an open EBA, both were after the same goals, and were both prepared to take action to the next level to achieve it?

If people only want to think of the next 12 months and not the rest of their careers however, then leave things as they are.
Crusty Demon is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 08:55
  #203 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2006
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You are pulling your pud too hard mate.
Having been a part of the TN/QF merger ,I'll let you in on a little secret,
TN guys got their commands on their aircraft way before any boogyman Qantas pilot of a similar seniority did,and so they should!

This much maligned Y seniority list you harp on about ,may not have been perfect , however I believe it probably was one of the smoothest meldings of seniority between two pilot groups, period.
max autobrakes is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 10:35
  #204 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 101
Y Y Y?

Thanks Max Autobrakes,
You saved me some typing. Led Zep, I too was part of the Y merge. Not only did the TN guys get commands on their aircraft before QF guys did of the same start dates in QF (I too agree with Max, as they rightly should) they are also flying L/H on the A330 and a few are even going on to the A380. (Every single TN guy could also be a Captain on the 767 as well.) Not really a shafting in my book. The good bit now is there are now a lot more career path choices available for everyone.

The same would happen with a Jet*/QF Y. Take someone who joined QF post Dec í06 which I believe would be the earliest you could have joined Jet* after leaving EK. You WILL have a command before the QF guy would most likely have ANY window seat. And if the merge wasnít going to go that way itís simple...........DONíT SIGN OFF ON IT!

As for starting your own association it will be too late by then and wonít help solve the problems with your EBA 4. It also still does nothing in the way of protecting your long term career though any form of unity with other pilots in Australia.

Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 19:40
  #205 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
I am missing something. Thus far I have not seen any admission by AIPA's fleet of spokespersons that there is anything in this for AIPA Mainline pilots at all!
  • Jetstar pilots will get even faster promotion (is that possible?)
  • QF drivers will have to wait
  • AIPA will provide "expertise"
  • AIPA leaders love and respect Jetstar and its pilots
  • AIPA has no designs on the 787s
Beats me why they'd bother then. Unless its for the sheer joy of doing a "good" turn for Jetstar pilots. Or do they have another agenda waiting in the shadows relating to assimilation and the eventual demise of JQ with a subsequent loss of jobs overall and great harm to the Groups competitive position and capability. But the Jetstar pilots, as they fall on their swords, will have done their duty....and preserved the pay and conditions of the 744 drivers.

Just a thought
genex is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 20:19
  #206 (permalink)  
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Hey genex. Who shot JFK?
I'm Driving is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 20:20
  #207 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
Doesn't really matter does it. He's dead whoever did it. Thats the point.
genex is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 20:36
  #208 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Posts: 182

I know you're management but I'll answer anyway for others to read.

It is pretty simple, what mainline pilots want is mainline flying. Simple really.

As Led Zep said:

Jetstar aircraft as allocated from the Qantas group must be flown by Jetstar pilots, no matter what the number or type.
I agree

All we want is the same for Qantas aircraft. OK! Got it?

A GOAL means that eventually (and it is LONG TERM THINKING) people will get to pick and choose where they go, but in the short term the existing pilots just get what they would have got anyway, but without having to undercut and compete with anyone to get it.

There are some in the J* ranks who want to undercut us to fly the A380 for QF. The same people, no doubt, who think it is OK to undercut Led Zep and his mates by offering to work on an AWA with the recent EBA4 conditions as rejected by the rest of the J* Pilots.

There are some in our ranks who want to nuke the j* guys by offering massive savings spread over all the QF fleets (which would in reality only be a small offset given the size of our fleets) to get ALL 787's and ALL future widebody aircraft.

I think both these MINORITIES are crazy. If we unite we don't need to screw each other. Got it?

Last edited by speeeedy; 26th Feb 2008 at 23:09.
speeeedy is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 20:52
  #209 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Agree with you 100%.
A GOAL will be a fantastic thing if it can be organised.
J* and mainline pilots will still attain their commands in their respective fleets at the same point as they would have without it - with the prospect at some point down track to switch fleets if they desire.
What you have to do is explain this to the clowns on Qrewroom (see the Jetstar EBA thread) who obviously dont understand the dynamics.

Unfortunately the way I see this thing going is that EBA2008 (ala EBA4) will be voted up - irrevocably tying us in with the AFAP who have sold us down the river to get their names in the EBA document and thus gain the membership.
Condition lever is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 20:56
  #210 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Posts: 159

You might be right. It might be a sinister plot by AIPA to wipe Jetstar pilots from the face of the earth.

Then again you might be wrong. AIPA might just be trying to reduce the downward pressure on mainline T&Cs by improving Jetstars, as has been stated repeatedly on this forum. Not to mention providing more future opportunities for both mainline AND Jetstar pilots.

So what is the best thing to do?

A) Stick your head in the sand and hope AIPA go away.

B) Listen to what AIPA have to say, take advantage of their resources and make an informed decision based on this - not a bunch of wild rumours posted on an anonymous forum. After all, if you don't like what they have to say, you can STILL choose to go your own way
'holic is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 22:09
  #211 (permalink)  
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Genex has got me very confused. He doesn't have anything positive to say about AIPA and comes out with a whole lot of claims without any evidence but the Qantas blokes provide evidence disputing Genex and showing that he is wrong. I don't know why he keeps on going on like he does. He always seems to embarress himself.
Alien Sex God is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 22:22
  #212 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Spot on.

Condition Lever,

Donít put too much weight in the extreme views of a small handful of guys on Qrewroom. As a Mainline pilot I cringe at their comments and find them an embarrassment. You hit the nail on the head labelling them clowns. Thereís extremists in any discussion and their opinions do not reflect the majority. The worst thing would be for us to not work together on this because of them. I found it interesting that their stupid rants were so quickly countered by the AIPA President.


First you say thereís nothing in it for Jet* guys and then when the gains are pointed out you try and turn that around and say thereís nothing in it for AIPA, so it must be a conspiracy with some shadowy agenda. To have this very ability and use it so frequently is confirmation of your position in management. Everything youíve argued for is contrary to the long term career and lifestyle of all Qantas Group pilotsí. I repeat my question from some time back, why do you want it to be this way? I suspect that itís pretty obvious who has the shadowy agenda.

Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 22:25
  #213 (permalink)  
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Sex God.

It's the power of suggestion. He's telling lies, and passing them of as facts so that poeple like Led Zep will believe him, and hopefully turn a few votes his way.

I don't know who genex is. But has anybody had a think about the age of the people that are pushing this thing (EBA 4)? Are they going to benefit more from having a bit more money now, rather than thinking about the future? In other words, these guys just want the money because they won't be around long enough to benefit from any GOAL or co-operation or whatever.
I'm Driving is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 22:54
  #214 (permalink)  
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I agree with ID. It has been pointed out to Genex many times that his claims are downright wrong, the most obvious being his claim that AIPA is tryng to get QF pilots commands on Jetstar aircraft before Jetstar pilots get them.

Genex you know that is wrong. There is only one reason to continue pushing it and it does not speak well of your motives.
Capt Kremin is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 23:32
  #215 (permalink)  
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the tn/qf merger was a huge shafting for tn pilots!!!!!!!

Last edited by fergusdog; 27th Feb 2008 at 00:34.
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Old 26th Feb 2008, 23:41
  #216 (permalink)  
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Last edited by I'm Driving; 27th Feb 2008 at 02:58. Reason: irrelevant to this thread.
I'm Driving is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 23:51
  #217 (permalink)  
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That's the way. If you shout loud enough or write in really big letters, people will be convinced ........
'holic is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2008, 03:27
  #218 (permalink)  
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".... I found it interesting that their stupid rants were so quickly countered by the AIPA President...."

Well may they be countered. AIPA needs to keep these "extremists" (or are they ?) under control to hide the real agenda of this union's COM.

A very likely scenario is that QF mainline (domestic and international) flying will be devolved significantly into lower cost parts of the group. It doesn't take a genius to realise that J* will be involved in some of that devolution through increased flying and possibly more aircraft types.

What will that mean for the AIPA ? Shrinking numbers and less relevance as other pilot groups go from strength to strength.

This is the only reason that they want J* pilots to come on board, in order to try and retain some industrial muscle AND CONTROL. We would be there as a sideshow only - there to "make up the numbers". No thankyou.

Everyone should remember how J* was treated by the AIPA not 2 years ago. We were inferior in every respect. It's AIPA and AIPA alone who has created this awful feeling of distrust between the groups.

I reiterate what I said above. The best move now for Jetstar pilots is to start their own association, free from meddling from others with dubious motives.
Led Zeppelin is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2008, 03:36
  #219 (permalink)  
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Zeppelin, if you had really listened to the AIPA President, then you would know that the proposal would be for Jetstar pilots to be industrially autonomous whilst operating under the umbrella of a combined organisation for other functions.

The main thrust of such an organisation would be to halt the playing off of one group against each other. What would be your objection to such an arrangement?
Capt Kremin is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2008, 03:51
  #220 (permalink)  
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It can't be denied that AIPA has come out with some "interesting" positions re Jetstar in the past.

Tell me C.K. - Would AIPA be prepared to commit now in writing to agree that J* pilots can operate domestically and internationally on an unrestricted basis on whatever types and numbers of aircraft that are allocated to J* from the QF group. Bear in mind this could include more A330's, 787's and (possibly) the A380.

Yes or No ?
Led Zeppelin is offline  

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