Merged: Jetstar EBA 4
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It is now clear to me. Emotion aside I think I have the logic down right. Without name calling can someone show me where I’m wrong? This doesn’t affect me. So I can be dispassionate. I would, as an observer though and someone who believes in good quality jobs above all else, sleep better at night if I knew that AIPA and JPA would guarantee the following:
a) AIPA will take no action to diminish the competitiveness of the QF Group against all competitors
b) AIPA will take no action to limit the proportion of 787s going to the Jetstar Fleet
c) Any pilots willing to resign from Qantas to join Jetstar would be able to and would keep things like full datal seniority, super and long service leave
d) AIPA would not oppose an eventual "umbrella union" for pilots
I would imagine in return that the Jetstar pilots would agree in like terms to the following:
a) JPA will take no action to diminish the competitiveness of the QF Group against all competitors
b) JPA will take no action to limit the proportion of 787s going to the Qantas Fleet
c) Any pilots willing to resign from Jetstar to join Qantas would be able to and would keep things like full datal seniority, super and long service leave
d) JPA would not oppose an eventual "umbrella union" for pilots
a) AIPA will take no action to diminish the competitiveness of the QF Group against all competitors
b) AIPA will take no action to limit the proportion of 787s going to the Jetstar Fleet
c) Any pilots willing to resign from Qantas to join Jetstar would be able to and would keep things like full datal seniority, super and long service leave
d) AIPA would not oppose an eventual "umbrella union" for pilots
I would imagine in return that the Jetstar pilots would agree in like terms to the following:
a) JPA will take no action to diminish the competitiveness of the QF Group against all competitors
b) JPA will take no action to limit the proportion of 787s going to the Qantas Fleet
c) Any pilots willing to resign from Jetstar to join Qantas would be able to and would keep things like full datal seniority, super and long service leave
d) JPA would not oppose an eventual "umbrella union" for pilots
Thread Starter
AIPA's roadshows this last week with the JQ guys and gals has been very well received by those who have had the decency to attend (work/time permitting of course), and a LOT of false statements, mis-quoting etc has been clarified by IW & PS.
It is the usual suspects amongst our pilot group who didnt attend, nor have bothered to pick up a phone and GET THE FACTS before voting. Its funny how we as Joe Public take on board Liberal & Labors policies, and make an INFORMED decision at an election. This is no different.
To AIPA, thanks for putting a balanced, mature perspective on the situation to our pilot body.
The under-current amongst ranks is a good NO vote out there due to the fact that management have treated the pilot body through this process, as well as the JPA's lack of communication.
Here's fingers crossed to the Jetstar pilot body, Qantas group, and Australian aviation community that this might unify pilots a bit better, and we get our stuff organised before August, for the benefit of all.
It is the usual suspects amongst our pilot group who didnt attend, nor have bothered to pick up a phone and GET THE FACTS before voting. Its funny how we as Joe Public take on board Liberal & Labors policies, and make an INFORMED decision at an election. This is no different.
To AIPA, thanks for putting a balanced, mature perspective on the situation to our pilot body.
The under-current amongst ranks is a good NO vote out there due to the fact that management have treated the pilot body through this process, as well as the JPA's lack of communication.
Here's fingers crossed to the Jetstar pilot body, Qantas group, and Australian aviation community that this might unify pilots a bit better, and we get our stuff organised before August, for the benefit of all.
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The most recent AIPA supported QF shorthaul EBA achieved:
AIPA is now saying Jetstar pilots should vote NO because of the 5yr term and "variable" (bonus) remuneration; amongst other reasons. Yet this is exactly what they negotiated for shorthaul.
I support the idea of a global seniority list and coverage under a single union, but to suggest that AIPA can go and negotiate a much better deal for Jetstar pilots than the current offer is simply fanciful.
- The same term as the proposed Jetstar EBA
- The same % Pay rise as the proposed Jetstar EBA
- A similar bonus scheme as the proposed Jetstar EBA
- A loss for some just as the proposed Jetstar EBA
AIPA is now saying Jetstar pilots should vote NO because of the 5yr term and "variable" (bonus) remuneration; amongst other reasons. Yet this is exactly what they negotiated for shorthaul.
I support the idea of a global seniority list and coverage under a single union, but to suggest that AIPA can go and negotiate a much better deal for Jetstar pilots than the current offer is simply fanciful.
Last edited by Pixie Princess; 28th Feb 2008 at 09:15.
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Just one small point Jetscabster:
QF B737 pilots are in the top quartile globally when it comes to what they are paid,
JQ 320 pilots are in the bottom quartile globally when it comes to what they are paid,
Would you would be happy if JQ A320 pilots were in the top quartile and AIPA was able to keep them there despite the most draconian industrial legislation Australia has been for Nye on 100 yrs.
I suspect not.
QF B737 pilots are in the top quartile globally when it comes to what they are paid,
JQ 320 pilots are in the bottom quartile globally when it comes to what they are paid,
Would you would be happy if JQ A320 pilots were in the top quartile and AIPA was able to keep them there despite the most draconian industrial legislation Australia has been for Nye on 100 yrs.
I suspect not.
Jetscabster (Great username by the way, very appropriate!)
Whilst you are mostly correct in what you say, those percentage increases were on top of a salary significantly higher than the relative Jetstar salary, (i.e. B737 v. A320). I am not talking about what a JQ pilot CAN make by working his arse off and getting lots of overtime, I'm talking about base salary here.
That's what this all about...bridging the gap between the two parties so that neither can be played off against each other. It's a WIN-WIN situation for all concerned.
TL
Whilst you are mostly correct in what you say, those percentage increases were on top of a salary significantly higher than the relative Jetstar salary, (i.e. B737 v. A320). I am not talking about what a JQ pilot CAN make by working his arse off and getting lots of overtime, I'm talking about base salary here.
That's what this all about...bridging the gap between the two parties so that neither can be played off against each other. It's a WIN-WIN situation for all concerned.
TL
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Just remember...
working more for less is the paradigm at J*(except if you happen to be a little irish fella who needs a booster seat)..Everywhere else will eventually come to realise that there actually is an acute pilot shortage.. and unless terms and conditions meet the mark it is off overseas...At Q we will get done by the likes of BA,RH et al.These guys will sell out the rest, much like GA...Those who follow carry the can whilst they swallow around on the A330 with a quicjkie command... Old stories new names and the game remains the same......
working more for less is the paradigm at J*(except if you happen to be a little irish fella who needs a booster seat)..Everywhere else will eventually come to realise that there actually is an acute pilot shortage.. and unless terms and conditions meet the mark it is off overseas...At Q we will get done by the likes of BA,RH et al.These guys will sell out the rest, much like GA...Those who follow carry the can whilst they swallow around on the A330 with a quicjkie command... Old stories new names and the game remains the same......
Nunc est bibendum
The most recent AIPA supported QF shorthaul EBA achieved:
* The same term as the proposed Jetstar EBA
* The same % Pay rise as the proposed Jetstar EBA
* A similar bonus scheme as the proposed Jetstar EBA
* A loss for some just as the proposed Jetstar EBA
Just how? by encouraging Jetstar pilots to vote NO does AIPA think they can do any better given the QF shorthaul EBA?
* The same term as the proposed Jetstar EBA
* The same % Pay rise as the proposed Jetstar EBA
* A similar bonus scheme as the proposed Jetstar EBA
* A loss for some just as the proposed Jetstar EBA
Just how? by encouraging Jetstar pilots to vote NO does AIPA think they can do any better given the QF shorthaul EBA?
Just to re-iterate, those increases were on conditions that are on average 20-30% better than those on offer from J*. Even if J* EBA4 gets voted up J* crew will still will be significantly less than the conditions that QF mainline drivers are on- for the identical job on virtually identical equipment.
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QF Insider.....
What the heck has AJ's height to do with anything? And the booster seat? A while ago I flew the beautiful 777-300 which was longer than a 744 and had much bigger engines and was way cooler than anything in the Qantas fleet. Does that make me a better person than poor QFInsider?
There is a pilot shortage. You are correct there. That is why First Officers at JQ can get A320 command in 2-3 years and soon, 787 command, on very decent money. Way sooner than anyone in Qantas. So their earning profile from say 25 to 40 and the options that their 787 command gives them easily outstrip their colleagues who opted for more pay earlier but less over the longer term and a verrrrrry long time not in the left hand seat where any pilot worth the name wants to be.
As for working harder. Are the CAO regs too lax? AIPA has had years to get CASA to change them. Any progress? Why shouldn't pilots work hard? Ask a single mum school teacher or nurse with 2 children what life is like. Or any single mum.
And as for "Off overseas"....simply go. Don't talk about it. Find out what "market" T & C are. I did it, thousands do. Yu might enjoy getting out from the protected umbrella of a Legacy carrier. And you will see lots and lots of 777s, tho as we know, none proudly bearing the rat logo.
Good jobs, commands and growth is the new paradigm Insider. Has been for 20 years now since deregulation. Its what pilots want. Its what the public want and boy do they vote with their feet. The fact that this 20 years is is roughly the same timeframe as the Hermit Kingdom (AIPA) has existed may not be entirely coincidence.
What the heck has AJ's height to do with anything? And the booster seat? A while ago I flew the beautiful 777-300 which was longer than a 744 and had much bigger engines and was way cooler than anything in the Qantas fleet. Does that make me a better person than poor QFInsider?
There is a pilot shortage. You are correct there. That is why First Officers at JQ can get A320 command in 2-3 years and soon, 787 command, on very decent money. Way sooner than anyone in Qantas. So their earning profile from say 25 to 40 and the options that their 787 command gives them easily outstrip their colleagues who opted for more pay earlier but less over the longer term and a verrrrrry long time not in the left hand seat where any pilot worth the name wants to be.
As for working harder. Are the CAO regs too lax? AIPA has had years to get CASA to change them. Any progress? Why shouldn't pilots work hard? Ask a single mum school teacher or nurse with 2 children what life is like. Or any single mum.
And as for "Off overseas"....simply go. Don't talk about it. Find out what "market" T & C are. I did it, thousands do. Yu might enjoy getting out from the protected umbrella of a Legacy carrier. And you will see lots and lots of 777s, tho as we know, none proudly bearing the rat logo.
Good jobs, commands and growth is the new paradigm Insider. Has been for 20 years now since deregulation. Its what pilots want. Its what the public want and boy do they vote with their feet. The fact that this 20 years is is roughly the same timeframe as the Hermit Kingdom (AIPA) has existed may not be entirely coincidence.
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Keg,
Let's talk about dishonesty, ignorance and immaturity.
You left out the most important part of my post.
AIPA is pushing the reasons for Jetstar to vote NO:
Do you not get it! AIPA supports it for QF and then turns to Jetstar pilots and says that is a reason to vote NO. Hypocritical or what?
Also, the overall package for QF seems very similar to the Jetstar package, except that Jetstar is a lower base. I have yet to see any indication of what AIPA or QF colleagues will do to get Jetstar a better deal than the one on offer. Do you honestly think AIPA can walk into Jetstar and get pilots another $50K each? Tell me exactly how they can negotiate so much better?
My friend tells me a QF 737 F/O will earn LESS than a DJ 737 F/O. How has AIPA done such a good job then?
Let's talk about dishonesty, ignorance and immaturity.
You left out the most important part of my post.
AIPA is pushing the reasons for Jetstar to vote NO:
- 5yr term
- Variable remuneration (ie bonus)
Do you not get it! AIPA supports it for QF and then turns to Jetstar pilots and says that is a reason to vote NO. Hypocritical or what?
Also, the overall package for QF seems very similar to the Jetstar package, except that Jetstar is a lower base. I have yet to see any indication of what AIPA or QF colleagues will do to get Jetstar a better deal than the one on offer. Do you honestly think AIPA can walk into Jetstar and get pilots another $50K each? Tell me exactly how they can negotiate so much better?
My friend tells me a QF 737 F/O will earn LESS than a DJ 737 F/O. How has AIPA done such a good job then?
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Less than a DJ F/O.
That is why in the shorthaul EBA the F/O rate goes from 59% of capt, to 64% of capt during the life of the EBA. So F/O's actually get 4% a year rather than 3% (sort of fixing the old B-scale).
Besides, if DJ F/O's do get more. AIPA can pull out the old "convergence with Virgin" thing that they had to put up with for years. Only this time I reckon the Company will find themselves on the wrong side of it.
"My friend tells me", is exactly what's wrong with pilots in Australia. Nobody could be bothered to do any leg work, so rumour becomes fact, and we're all worse off.
That is why in the shorthaul EBA the F/O rate goes from 59% of capt, to 64% of capt during the life of the EBA. So F/O's actually get 4% a year rather than 3% (sort of fixing the old B-scale).
Besides, if DJ F/O's do get more. AIPA can pull out the old "convergence with Virgin" thing that they had to put up with for years. Only this time I reckon the Company will find themselves on the wrong side of it.
"My friend tells me", is exactly what's wrong with pilots in Australia. Nobody could be bothered to do any leg work, so rumour becomes fact, and we're all worse off.
Last edited by I'm Driving; 28th Feb 2008 at 21:37.
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Keg - I'll ignore your personal views about me, which are totally incorrect. They are irrelevant to this discussion.
This motherhood stuff from AIPA at the roadshow about how we can all work together is a smokesreen. Their timing is just too cute by halves. AIPA with about 2300 members simply doesn't need 450 JQ pilots to change its’ industrial base. The numbers are just too one sided.
So why are they doing it?
The real motive for AIPA trying to muscle in on JQ pilots representation is to ensure that QF mainline pilots are able to unduly influence and affect future Jetstar flying. Does anyone honestly believe that downtrack, if a majority of QF mainline pilots wanted a course of action, that AIPA COM would risk going against it?
This says it all:-
(From Nuf)
“””……If you go with AIPA you won’t have them fighting for YOUR 787 jobs. That is what your quote in red refers to. No surprise really. Of course if Jet* pilots take the path management is attempting to steer then down AIPA will have to take serious action to protect their members future. It’s if something ISN’T worked out between us that that may occur.….”””
What these people are effectively saying is:- "join our association or stand by to be shafted".
Nuf – you’ve summed it up perfectly and explained what Ian Woods' infamous words on Qrewroom REALLY AND PRACTICALLY mean.
TO ALL JETSTAR PILOTS – These people (AIPA) are putting a gun to our heads and won’t hesitate to fire the first shot if things go south for their QF mainline pilots.
Vote YES for EBA4
Vote NO for AIPA.
....Standing by for incoming.
This motherhood stuff from AIPA at the roadshow about how we can all work together is a smokesreen. Their timing is just too cute by halves. AIPA with about 2300 members simply doesn't need 450 JQ pilots to change its’ industrial base. The numbers are just too one sided.
So why are they doing it?
The real motive for AIPA trying to muscle in on JQ pilots representation is to ensure that QF mainline pilots are able to unduly influence and affect future Jetstar flying. Does anyone honestly believe that downtrack, if a majority of QF mainline pilots wanted a course of action, that AIPA COM would risk going against it?
This says it all:-
(From Nuf)
“””……If you go with AIPA you won’t have them fighting for YOUR 787 jobs. That is what your quote in red refers to. No surprise really. Of course if Jet* pilots take the path management is attempting to steer then down AIPA will have to take serious action to protect their members future. It’s if something ISN’T worked out between us that that may occur.….”””
What these people are effectively saying is:- "join our association or stand by to be shafted".
Nuf – you’ve summed it up perfectly and explained what Ian Woods' infamous words on Qrewroom REALLY AND PRACTICALLY mean.
TO ALL JETSTAR PILOTS – These people (AIPA) are putting a gun to our heads and won’t hesitate to fire the first shot if things go south for their QF mainline pilots.
Vote YES for EBA4
Vote NO for AIPA.
....Standing by for incoming.
Last edited by Led Zeppelin; 28th Feb 2008 at 22:21.
Looking through all the BS, is it really that hard to work out?
1. Management bring the EBA negotiations forward 9 mths.
2. Management rush through a second vote allowing AWAers to vote.
3. Hands tied for 5 years in the most pilot friendly conditions seen.
Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but never in my life has it been to MY benefit when someone has pressured me to act. Never.
Forget the paranoid and inaccurate cr@p that Led et al keep spruking. Wake up and smell the coffee- if you vote this thing up you are forever sentencing yourselves to 3rd World pay and conditions. Forever. Right at a time when you don't just have all the Aces in your hands, you have the entire pack!
It really is that simple.
M
1. Management bring the EBA negotiations forward 9 mths.
2. Management rush through a second vote allowing AWAers to vote.
3. Hands tied for 5 years in the most pilot friendly conditions seen.
Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but never in my life has it been to MY benefit when someone has pressured me to act. Never.
Forget the paranoid and inaccurate cr@p that Led et al keep spruking. Wake up and smell the coffee- if you vote this thing up you are forever sentencing yourselves to 3rd World pay and conditions. Forever. Right at a time when you don't just have all the Aces in your hands, you have the entire pack!
It really is that simple.
M
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Mmmmbop has a good point.
After all is said and done, the very fact that J* management is pushing the AFAP, the JPA... ANYONE BUT AIPA, must make any thinking person have some doubts.
The fact that Qantas expended millions of dollars fighting a simple change to AIPA's rules must also make a thinking person pause.
If AIPA is going to be a bad thing for Jetstar pilots, why is management on all sides fighting to ensure they are not involved?
Are there any thinking Jetstar pilots out there with an answer to that?
Or do you truly believe that management has your best interests at heart?
After all is said and done, the very fact that J* management is pushing the AFAP, the JPA... ANYONE BUT AIPA, must make any thinking person have some doubts.
The fact that Qantas expended millions of dollars fighting a simple change to AIPA's rules must also make a thinking person pause.
If AIPA is going to be a bad thing for Jetstar pilots, why is management on all sides fighting to ensure they are not involved?
Are there any thinking Jetstar pilots out there with an answer to that?
Or do you truly believe that management has your best interests at heart?
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Or do you truly believe that management has your best interests at heart?
The only thing AIPA has at heart is the interests of the QF mainline group. That's good news for QF pilots.
Led Zep, your music is great but you're beginning to sound like a broken record. 
Just accept that the huge majority of pilots in Mainline (ie AIPA) simply want to unify salaries, Ts & Cs, etc so that the current management cannot continue their divide and conquer tactics - no hidden agenda fullstop
Just accept that the huge majority of pilots in Mainline (ie AIPA) simply want to unify salaries, Ts & Cs, etc so that the current management cannot continue their divide and conquer tactics - no hidden agenda fullstop
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Jetscabster,
Maths mate, you're supposed to be good at it.... 9.5% of $220-240k is considerably more than 9.5% of 150-170K have you got that?????
So it would appear that you have a long way to go before you can compare your EBA offer with the one the Shorthaul guys fought for and got.
Led,
How many times does it have to be said that the Jetstar guys will control their own destiny, the unity is about stopping the undercutting and divide and conquer which has been so successful, and for some reason you seem to condone.
If you think that AIPA has the power to steal your precious planes, then wouldn't they just do it, why would they go to the huge expense in money and effort to get you on board just to shaft you later?
Maybe they really want Unity.
There are some trouble makers in Mainline who reckon we should take a pay freeze across all fleets to get ALL future planes regardless of colour scheme (including the new A320's). The guy I spoke to reckons a pay freeze in mainline would deliver over $200M in savings over the next 5 years, can you beat that by flying 15 787's at $50k less? You can't even match it with 65 787's.
AIPA has not gone this way because enough undercutting has already happened, and they certainly don't intend to take it to a new level. That is what unity provides, a simple plan, yet powerful.
So why don't you answer the question already put:
You have brought paranoia to new levels, and the shame is that your paranoia against the QF pilots has blinded you to the people who are really out to shaft you, the management.
Maths mate, you're supposed to be good at it.... 9.5% of $220-240k is considerably more than 9.5% of 150-170K have you got that?????
So it would appear that you have a long way to go before you can compare your EBA offer with the one the Shorthaul guys fought for and got.
Led,
do you think AIPA has the JQ pilots' best interests at heart.
If you think that AIPA has the power to steal your precious planes, then wouldn't they just do it, why would they go to the huge expense in money and effort to get you on board just to shaft you later?
Maybe they really want Unity.
There are some trouble makers in Mainline who reckon we should take a pay freeze across all fleets to get ALL future planes regardless of colour scheme (including the new A320's). The guy I spoke to reckons a pay freeze in mainline would deliver over $200M in savings over the next 5 years, can you beat that by flying 15 787's at $50k less? You can't even match it with 65 787's.
AIPA has not gone this way because enough undercutting has already happened, and they certainly don't intend to take it to a new level. That is what unity provides, a simple plan, yet powerful.
So why don't you answer the question already put:
If AIPA is going to be a bad thing for Jetstar pilots, why is management on all sides fighting to ensure they are not involved?
Last edited by speeeedy; 29th Feb 2008 at 01:29.
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Going Boeing has outed the total AIPA agenda.
"Just accept that the huge majority of pilots in Mainline (ie AIPA) simply want to unify salaries, Ts & Cs, etc so that the current management cannot continue their divide and conquer tactics"
That "simply" means the end of Jetstar and the rat on the tail of each 787, AIPA's true war aim.....because we know that all the costs would trickle down and throughout Jetstar. That would cost hundreds of pilot jobs and thousands of others. But the AIPA pilots would be OK and get a few of the drastically cutback 787 order book....for as long as they can keep throwing out "lesser" pilots to delay those fast closing wolves with Tiger, Virgin, Air Asia, SIA and EK logos on thier fangs.
This won't affect me at all so perhaps I shouldn't comment.....except that it saddens me and I suppose also because my super fund has a few Qantas shares and they'll be arguably worthless if AIPA gets their hands on Jetstar.
"Just accept that the huge majority of pilots in Mainline (ie AIPA) simply want to unify salaries, Ts & Cs, etc so that the current management cannot continue their divide and conquer tactics"
That "simply" means the end of Jetstar and the rat on the tail of each 787, AIPA's true war aim.....because we know that all the costs would trickle down and throughout Jetstar. That would cost hundreds of pilot jobs and thousands of others. But the AIPA pilots would be OK and get a few of the drastically cutback 787 order book....for as long as they can keep throwing out "lesser" pilots to delay those fast closing wolves with Tiger, Virgin, Air Asia, SIA and EK logos on thier fangs.
This won't affect me at all so perhaps I shouldn't comment.....except that it saddens me and I suppose also because my super fund has a few Qantas shares and they'll be arguably worthless if AIPA gets their hands on Jetstar.
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Sherm. Jetstar's future success is totally dependant on what they pay their pilots? That's not even remotely true, and you know it. Are you Joyce?
As for "because we know that all the costs would trickle down and throughout Jetstar", what do the other groups of employees in Jetstar get payed, compared to their Qantas counterparts?
As for "because we know that all the costs would trickle down and throughout Jetstar", what do the other groups of employees in Jetstar get payed, compared to their Qantas counterparts?