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Merged: Jetstar EBA 4

Old 24th Feb 2008, 23:14
  #181 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Out of the furnace...
Posts: 85
Chimbu, lets come at this from a different angle.
Pertinent facts.
* Rudd government elected on platform of IR reform Nov 07.
* IR Transition bill mooted to be passed by Easter 08. Reforms include union involvement in negotiations with >50% workplace agreement & "Good Faith" bargaining.
* AIPA gains coverage of all Qantas Group pilots late Dec 07 in AIRC.
* Liberal opposition proposes blocking passage of the IR transition bill. Likely to be stalled until at least July 08. Horse trading with independents to ensure passage likely or double dissolution election.
* J* pilots vote on EBA4 some 8 months prior to expiry end January 08.
* Liberal opposition announces passage of Rudd transition bill by Easter, Feb 08.

Given the above facts, a plausible scenario could include an early EBA4 vote as a contingency by J* management to exclude AIPA for 5 years. If the EBA4 deal is as sweet as some contend, why is it so? Why lock the company in for 5 years if things are going to tank? Why the rush?
Is it possible that J* management are buying a non-union collective agreement while they can? Ryanair are fiercely non-union, & I would hypothesise that the current J* CEO, ex-Ryanair holds similar views.
Further, is it possible the deal was improved BECAUSE of the looming 'AIPA threat'? If the AIRC decision went against AIPA to gain Qantas Group coverage do you think the offer would be as good as the one on offer? That right, the presence of AIPA in the wings may have already benefited the J* pilots.

Yes AIPA may not have been able to negotiate more money out of J*, but should the majority of J* pilots wish to utilise its services as a bargaining agent, under new legislation AIPA will have a seat at the table on their behalf. AIPA may have been able to negotiate other lifestyle & career conditions, which to many are just as important as money. Some issues that are likely to cause discontent include: out of seniority training, DEC's, hotel accommodation, base transfers, rostering & the group opportunity list. Are any of these addressed in the current EBA4?

If AIPA does negotiate on behalf of the J* pilots, it would be a respondent to the EBA, and can therefore protect EBA conditions on behalf of its members.

The current J* CEO is on record as saying that he intends to get 5 to 7 years out of his pilots before they are burnt out. Offering more money now to get a non-union collective agreement may allow him to get his wish, in effect saving him more money in lifestyle, training & rostering issues over the lifetime of the agreement.

Viewed through this prism, is it possible that this is a final attempt by J* management to exclude unions from their workforce before the window-of-opportunity shuts in less than a month with the likely passage of the IR transition legislation?
I would posit that those pilots putting themselves forward to sign AWA's based on EBA4 have no desire for the 'lifestyle' or career issues, they simply want the bucks or to ingratiate themselves with management. Just like the complaints about the old AIPA being the B747 Captains club, for exactly the same reasons.
freddyKrueger is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2008, 23:29
  #182 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Hi Freddy,

The current J* CEO is on record as saying that he intends to get 5 to 7 years out of his pilots before they are burnt out.
Am dying to get a hold of this - could you direct me to where this is stated please.

Condition lever is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2008, 00:42
  #183 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
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One imagines that given the size of the order, there will be plenty of opportunities for current QF drivers, if they are suitably qualified and experienced, to fly the 787, whatever form of rodent or logo adorns the tail. And their terms and conditions would no doubt be appropriate to the "market forces" prevailing at the time they made their individual or collective choices regarding their chosen fleet.

As its stands though, asking the Jetstar pilots to ensure and boilerplate the process of getting mainline drivers seamlessly and happily onto the 787 at current Qantas pay rates is a bit steep. There's some heavy lifting to do if you think this could or should be done and I'd be guessing not a few people reckon AIPA should step up to the plate themselves.
genex is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2008, 00:52
  #184 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Condition lever, this Pprune thread covers it.
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Old 25th Feb 2008, 01:04
  #185 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 101
Something witty about balls

Freddy K is spot on. As he says, WHY are they offering this deal and wanting to push it through so quickly?

I too distinctly remember Joyce saying he was happy to get 5 years out of a pilot. (Thought it was in an interview in ‘The Australian’ when Jet* first got the big nod and announced the A320s, sorry I can’t be more specific, Condition Lever) One of the big improvements needed to prevent the above, from what I’ve seen, is making your conditions sustainable for a long term career. (Particularly for the Jet*I pilots). Mates of mine in there seem to forever be arriving home off a trip and departing again the next day, often to repeat the process on the next return home. With the 3 day a week frequency to many of the current, or future developing, leisure ports it's impossible to achieve the high density of hours that can be achieved in short haul ops. The same holds true in QF. Having Minimum Base Turnaround entitlements is certainly one of the things I greatly appreciate under the L/H award having spent some years operating without this.


My response to your last posting is on the previous page due to the delaying process of moderator approval.

From the AIPA President (on an open section of Qrewroom so I hope it’s not breaching any protocols to post here?)

“IMHO, should EBA 8 (QF L/H-my note) not also guarantee job security and career progress for Qantas Group pilots, AIPA members will be left with no alternative other than to follow the path already trod by Iberian pilots and soon to be trodden by our BA colleagues?”
Only words at this stage I know, but I think now that Qantas managements plans' have been unveiled a willingness to ‘up the ante’ has been expressed.

“I certainly don’t wish to be remembered as the AIPA President that led the only Qantas strike since 1966.”
I don’t think anyone wants the angst of a strike but I believe there is the resolve to take protected industrial action if required. I guess the point I'm trying to make is I don't think Qantas Mainline pilots are sitting back wanting Jet* pilots to fight their battle for them. You're certainly not being asked to take industrial action by anyone, just to take some time to consider the long term implications of accepting this deal. Please have a look at what AIPA has on offer for you. Get to a roadshow or give them a call then make your own decision.

Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2008, 01:21
  #186 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 101
Market forces


If it goes your way it won't be fair market forces that will determine T & C's for Mainline pilots on the 787, it will be whatever QF/Jet* Management wants. It needn't be that way and why would anyone want it to be? Why do you want it to be?

Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2008, 07:14
  #187 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 209
This is turning out like 89 without the fan fair. Some want AWA's others want to go into bat and the overseas contractor will enter the country on a special VISA. Either way, your all SCR#$D. No unity, no balls, no dice!

Hope it gets voted in, gives way to selfish behavour, VB boys can't wait for the DEC on the 787, read a boeing publication the other day, anyone heard of Boeing STAR courses?

This will get voted in, no problems. Can't wait to see the result. Good luck everyone, either way it goes if you don't get united its all over. The result will just be academic.
dirty deeds is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2008, 11:14
  #188 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Geez Dirty Deeds, you're kind of all over the shop on that one.
Thanks for your support.

Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2008, 11:37
  #189 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 209

Just trying to prove a point, if you don't get united, it opens the door for overseas VISA contenders and outside on-lookers. Simple from where I am looking, yet I suppose all I am is a simple pilot!
dirty deeds is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2008, 12:12
  #190 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2002
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The irony here is that when it was just the 717 operation there was little or no interest shown by QF "brothers" as to our future. Now our getting together is the main priority. I was at the initial meeting when Impulse was taken over by Qantas. I distinctly remember a certain Mr manning stating in no uncertain terms that Qantas pilots had no interest in the plight of Impulse guys. I also remember Mr Woods stating on his election that his and AIPAs priority was to halt the growth of Jetstar.

So what has changed. The 787 maybe?. If I was a QF pilot Id be mighty pi$$ed off with AIPA currently. I guess if you make your own bed you have to be prepared to sleep in the ba$tard thing!!!

Douglas Mcdonnell is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2008, 13:15
  #191 (permalink)  

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I distinctly remember a certain Mr manning stating in no uncertain terms that Qantas pilots had no interest in the plight of Impulse guys.
He was wrong. I know of many pilots- myself included- who made direct representations to Chris to get not only the Impulse pilots but the QFlink pilots as part of the one association also.

I also remember Mr Woods stating on his election that his and AIPAs priority was to halt the growth of Jetstar.
This is so out of context that it defies belief. I'm not going to bother responding Douglas because it's all been explained before. If you weren't willing to pay attention before then I'm not going to bother wasting my time going over the same territory again.

By the way, I hunted back through my emails the other day that I sent to AIPA around the time- had to go to the garage to get out the old computer. On one of them is a report that the IPC knocked back an offer from AIPA to provide assistance with an eye to looking at representation down the track. That changes the scenario in a big way.

What I find delusional in all of this is that we've stopped mid race and had a look back at the start and we're cursing and moaning about all the mistakes that have lead up to this point. We're also so hacked off by those mistakes that we've decided that rather than run smart and clean for the rest of the race we're going to continue to run with one hand tied behind our back. Whatever happened to learning from the past and then fixing it in the future. '89 showed what happens when people aren't united. Alas we're destined to repeat the same mistakes again except this time it's because we're mired in events of six years ago!
Keg is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2008, 22:56
  #192 (permalink)  
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For once I agree with Keg. There are a few facts that need to be stated about the current situation, although I am sure they will be disputed by the few who go running to AJ everytime something does not fall their way.

I am a long serving AFAP member as well as a Jetstar Pilot.

Fact 1. Jetstar saw the pilot shortage looming and decided to engage the JPC or JPA or whatever they are this week, in negotiations to tie up a new EBA without costing them the earth, ie like it would when this current one expires. Call them what you want, they're not stupid.

Fact 2. They stopped negotiations when they advertised for expressions of interest from 777 guys, and I stress 'expressions of interest' becasue thats all they were, not firm commitments, when they saw how many 'expressions' they received and thought 'what pilot shortage' and stopped talking.

Fact 3. They were coaxed back to the table when the oppportunity to hand out a [email protected] deal presented, hey who looks a gift horse in the mouth?

Fact 4. The AFAP, after the issuing of this first deal, publicly stated that all jetstar pilots should vote no because first and foremostly, a 5 year deal in the currently economic climate was unacceptable. Now they have changed their tune due to them getting their monogram on the deal before AIPA did.

Fact 5. The deal got voted down, 'marginally' as we keep being told, but none the less, voted down. The majority spoke. But 1 or 2 guys were not happy with this so a coup was organised and only a few people went to the company asking to be put on AWAs. Well, let them have it. This figure was muted to be only 25 people not the 100 being bandied around.

Fact 6. Employees who were employed on AWAs were not eligible to vote on the first EBA, but miracously on this vote they can. So who in their right mind would stay on an AWA when they have the chance to vote up an EBA and be rid of those evil contracts?

Many aspects of this deal are smoke and mirrors, for 145k and the chance to earn some extra if the moon aligns with venus in the 4th quarter, is not acceptable. We are selling out every new hire that comes along on B scale for the first year, based on the premise that all FOs will have commands real soon. Well let me tell you guys that this will not happen. The deal allows for the hiring of DECs for ever and a day and when the commands slow, then all you will be left is a [email protected] deal with 200 blokes behind you on seniority with commands.

I urge everyone who is eligble to vote on this to think hard and ask yourself, is this the best deal we can get? The answer everytime will be no.

I was never a big fan of AIPA or their motivation, but I am starting to think that the only organistion that has a set of knackers big enough to help our cause, is AIPA.
dodgybrothers is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 00:21
  #193 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Posts: 101

Nicely written Keg and Dodgybrothers,

I particularly like Keg’s mid race analogy. So what’s it going to be people?

From a representation point of view I think we’ve got 5 choices (discounting none and signing off immediately on an AWA. (The following is certainly not intended to be taken as slandering any particular Union/Association, or the people that work on their behalf, but it just a pragmatic appraisal of our current situation as pilots in Australia.)

1. JPC – Probably effective in the early days of Impulse but with the exception of a few with questionable impartiality/conflict of interest, seems to be acknowledged as very pro-management with its leaning. It would seem a lot of Jet* pilots are less than happy with them and I think their usefulness from a Jet* pilots’ point of view has probably expired. Also doesn’t solve the problem of unified representation of Australian Pilots.

2. AFAP – Sorry guys but you lost a fair bit of credibility when you back flipped on this EBA just to get your name on the letterhead. The other downside of AFAP representation is that it still doesn’t solve the problem of unified representation of Australian Pilots. The reality is that 2400+ Qantas Mainline pilots are not about to join the AFAP as they don’t have the legal right of representation, they’re not presently capable and they have no interest or intention of becoming so.

3. AIPA – Whatever you may think about its past relationship (or lack thereof) with Jet* pilots and QF Regional pilots this is the only organisation that has any real capability to represent us all. We are at a critical point in time now. They are the ONLY organisation that can legally represent us all. Get it from the horse’s mouth by a phone call or attending a road show but these guys will be representing YOU. The various sub-organisations i.e. Jet* Pilots, Qantaslink..... would run their own show within the umbrella in the same way as S/H and L/H run separately. When it comes to an EBA vote ultimately it’s only those covered by it that vote. L/H pilots don’t get to vote on a S/H EBA and vice versa. L/H pilots aren’t usually even at the table for the S/H negotiations (Unless someone with a particular industrial area of expertise is requested to be present) with the company. AIPA certainly isn’t perfect (Is any organisation?) but I do think they’re the best choice available.

4. The Australian Pilots Union (Insert title of choice) – A totally new organisation. Reality. By the time it’s setup, has the infrastructure and the legal right of representation the horse will have well and truly bolted, been tracked and caught, sold, slaughtered and be adorning and old-school tennis racquet.

5. Status Quo – Remain divided and in the exactly the position every Airline management/Oldmeadow-type negotiator wants.

Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 02:00
  #194 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Oz
Posts: 156

Ahhh... the "my mother's hairdresser's best friend" heard it scenario.
Can anyone actually provide some factual reference to this "burn out" allegation?
Condition lever is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 02:53
  #195 (permalink)  
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Some more thinking points that occur to this weary observer of the dogfight whose own wings are now folded but who wishes all pilots well and hopes all airlines will grow rapidly:
  • Keg has pointed out that legally AIPA’s mainline pilots can do nothing industrially to help their Poor Cousins in Qantas Link and Jetstar.
  • Some on this thread suggest that there is arguably some doubt as to whether AIPA as a whole actually wants to help its Poor Cousins
  • If the Poor Cousins do join AIPA they would be responsible for their own terms and conditions anyway, as distinctly separate as S/H and L/H are within QF now
So……… AIPA wants to help Poor Cousins to solve problems that it can’t solve itself because it is industrially neutered, wishes Jetstar would go away, wants all the 787 flying, has no scope clause and can't even arrange for time off for its own negotiators.

And these are the foundations underpinning the negotiating “expertise” that would in effect be the sole reason why Jetstar pilots should join AIPA? What else do they offer? If AIPA had strength (in negotiating skills or industrial tactics) then wouldn’t it negotiate a better deal all round for the Poor Cousins anyway? Today. Why haven’t they done that up until now? Are they withholding their negotiating skills til they get their hands on the membership fees of the Poor Cousins?

In closing I also note that someone pointed out that JPA is “too close” to management. Has any JPA President yet crossed the fence to become Chief Pilot a la the traditional Qantas career path...?
Captain Sherm is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 03:07
  #196 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Nope, but it doesn't mean it wasn't said. One thing Joyce and his IR team are not, is stupid.
Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 03:56
  #197 (permalink)  
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Captain Sherm,

Whilst AIPA has the legal right to represent Jet* guys they can’t negotiate for them unless the Jet* guys want their representation. They can’t just storm an EBA negotiation uninvited and force anyone to deal with them.

If the Poor Cousins do join AIPA they would be responsible for their own terms and conditions anyway, as distinctly separate as S/H and L/H are within QF now.

You’ve taken this the wrong way I’m afraid and maybe I should have been clearer. The Jet* pilots will be their own master in voting and determining what they want. The point here is no Mainline S/H or L/H guy can force them to accept something that is detrimental to their existance. When it comes to a Jet* EBA it will ONLY be Jet* pilots who can vote. What they gain is the resources of a bigger association (Legal, industrial, administrative….) and the unity that prevents one group being played against another ( And when a group list eventuates a whole bigger field of career opportunities).

So……… AIPA wants to help Poor Cousins to solve problems that it can’t solve itself because it is industrially neutered, wishes Jetstar would go away, wants all the 787 flying, has no scope clause and can't even arrange for time off for its own negotiators.
Regards not being able to negotiate time off for negotiators see Kegs post #169 back 1 page. As far as a scope clause, when’s the last time you saw one of these agreed to by any company. They just don’t happen anymore as companies will not impose arbitrary limits on themselves. Whilst AIPA probably would prefer Jet* didn’t exist it does and they are trying to change the situation to the pilots’ benefit. They are not trying to get all the 787 flying and have openly stated that they can’t dictate in which of the 2 brands Qantas allocates the 787s.

While we’re separate groups that can be used against each other our industrial strength is limited. THESE GUYS ARE PLAYING HARDBALL AND THEY’RE NOT STUPID.

Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 04:53
  #198 (permalink)  
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can't even arrange for time off for its own negotiators.
This is a key point.

What happened is that a very clear agreement was made to move this clause outside the CA to an MOU, there is no doubt about the agreement, only that Dixon will not sign the MOU. In other words he has gone back on his word.

Apparently it is an open and shut case, with very clear evidence, but as is the way with the legal system the large organisation can draw it out for as long as it wants.

But AIPA are fighting it, and will win it (or more likely Qantas will settle at the last moment after stringing it out for ages) and it will cost a lot, but they can do it.

My question then is this... What happens on the inevitable day that management welshes on a deal with the JPA/C? Are they in a position to fight the might of a large organisation that will use the legal system to their full advantage? That is just one of the major strengths (amongst many other) of a united group.

Will they welsh on a deal?

I don't have the time to tell you how many deals they have welshed on with Mainline pilots so far, but eventually we woke up and kicked out the old AIPA regime that never stood up to these guys.

Once and for all, don't use the failings of the old AIPA as a reason for not joining. We woke up! They've gone, what more can we do?

And for the record, CM told the IPC to P!$$ off on his own, most on CoM where lead to believe that the IPC had told AIPA to P!$$ off, it was only years later that the truth really came out, and QF mainline pilots and AIPA Committee members were not happy! There is a reason that people leave the room when he enters, you know.

Most AIPA members thought it was entirely logical for the Impulse guys to come in on a Y just like Short Haul, the future CP obviously didn't see it that way.... I wonder why?

Last edited by speeeedy; 26th Feb 2008 at 05:21.
speeeedy is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 06:33
  #199 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2005
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As a JQ driver I am VERY suspicious of AIPA and the motives for wanting to cover Jetstar pilots. Nothing Ian Woods and others have said has changed this suspicion.

EVERYONE should understand that AIPA is only out for themselves - they are desperate to take advantage of a largely disparate group that the JQ pilot group currently seems to be.

Don't be fooled - AIPA wants absolute control over who flys Qantas group aircraft. I am sure all JQ drivers will find this unacceptale.

Jetstar aircraft as allocated from the Qantas group must be flown by Jetstar pilots, no matter what the number or type.

As far as this current JQ EBA vote goes, it's disappointing that the now weak and ineffectual AFAP has been included as a respondent. Unless it is voted down (unlikely), we have effectively been handed a fait accompli.

With 500+ pilots by years end, surely we could form our own association and then look after our own interests without interference from anyone.

Rant over.
Led Zeppelin is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2008, 07:38
  #200 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Posts: 101

Led Zep,

You guys do have your own Association, the JPA, but the problem is still one of unity to prevent one group of pilots being played off against another. That’s as an aside to the time taken to actually set a new association up and have it recognised. It will be too late for EBA 4. So if you want a chance of something better why not see what AIPA can offer. If you don’t like what you see then don’t continue down that path. Just don’t write them off as an option until you’ve heard what they’ve got to say. When you say,
“Nothing Ian Woods and others have said has changed this suspicion.”
Have you actually heard from him or are you basing this on what others (JPA) are saying to further their agenda (Short term financial gain at others expense). (If you have then good for you, I’m sorry if you’re still suspicious, AIPA needs to try harder in your case.)

I see as recently as December ’06 you were with EK so I’m guessing (excuse my presumption if I’m wrong) that you’re right seating with Jet*? If you’re worried about some Mainline guy getting your command then relax. In the same way when Australian Airlines and QF pilots merged, NO QF pilot would be able to take a command slot in front of ANY current JQ pilot. The same applies the other way.

"EVERYONE should understand that AIPA is only out for themselves."
AIPA is not some mythical beast. It is a group of people working together to better their lot as professional pilots. They want YOU to be part of it for your own benefit, and that of the group as a whole.

Nuthinondaclock is offline  

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