Merged: Jetstar EBA 4
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Oh well...what can you expect from a group of pilots who are predominantly made up of the rejects of every other airline in Australia - something about John West and tuna springs to mind.
If I ever had any doubts about taking a job with J* you have eloquently dispelled them.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Lots of expert opinions as usual
Have worked here, overseas, now back here. I would suspect I have considerable more experience than the galactically stupid "Transition Layer"
Here's a thought... be like the rest of the nation who are gainfully employed getting on on with their lives and not sitting at their computer desks like geeks on some stupid forum calling eachother names trying to belittle one another. [I]Would Transition Layer call me a reject to my face I wonder?? Or is this the only medium he feels comfortable with?
Could someone please tell me where the Aviation Utopia all and sundry here seem to be seeking exists? Because it isn't in this country, and it wasn't o/s? Maybe this just is as good as it gets, so I think I'll spend some time with the family and refine the hobby (which isn't usually reading this garbage)
Have worked here, overseas, now back here. I would suspect I have considerable more experience than the galactically stupid "Transition Layer"
Here's a thought... be like the rest of the nation who are gainfully employed getting on on with their lives and not sitting at their computer desks like geeks on some stupid forum calling eachother names trying to belittle one another. [I]Would Transition Layer call me a reject to my face I wonder?? Or is this the only medium he feels comfortable with?
Could someone please tell me where the Aviation Utopia all and sundry here seem to be seeking exists? Because it isn't in this country, and it wasn't o/s? Maybe this just is as good as it gets, so I think I'll spend some time with the family and refine the hobby (which isn't usually reading this garbage)
I'm just so so friggin' over it all...don't know what else to say fellas!
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Transition...and those who have read those few cruel words he penned....
This thread and many like it has been characterized by robust, even over the top debate and name calling. But I think we all know where the bounds are. What you said was not only untrue....even worse it was vicious. Airmen and women of any worth are bound together by more than employer, union or background.
I commend that thought to you. And the thought that by a few keystrokes you can retract what you said....and you should.
This thread and many like it has been characterized by robust, even over the top debate and name calling. But I think we all know where the bounds are. What you said was not only untrue....even worse it was vicious. Airmen and women of any worth are bound together by more than employer, union or background.
I commend that thought to you. And the thought that by a few keystrokes you can retract what you said....and you should.
Nunc est bibendum
i've got to say that I'm surprised and disappointed with Transition Layer's comments. He's not normally quite so hot-headed. I'm sure that once he's had a chance to think through his comments some more then he'll come to his senses and offer an apology.
No doubt there are pilots in J* who were rejected by QF, AN or DJ- just as there are pilots in QF who were rejected by some/all of the others. I must admit that having been knocked back for a lot of jobs earlier in my life that it certainly did change my perspective on what i'd be prepared to accept. The more knock backs, the less I was prepared to work for to get 'the' job- any job...and I'm not talking flying here. That's not a comment on my actual worth or level of skill, it is however a comment on the perception I had of myself at the time and it came as a result of others reinforcing that negative perception that I obviously wasn't very worthy.
Changing gears slightly, it should be an interesting bunch of flight decks in J* over the next little while considering that 4:10 said 'no' to the deal. I'd lay money on the fact that you won't be able to find 6:10 line drivers who admit they said 'yes'- just as you couldn't find the same number in QF who voted 'yes' to EBA7 a couple of years back.
To summarise the stance I see it from a mainline AIPA supporter. J* crew, you've voted 'yes'. You can have AFAP respond to your EBA for the next five years. You've now got absolutely nothing to lose by giving AIPA a go in the short to medium term. Some of us will be disappointed that you blinked- just as we were disappointed when you said 'yes' to a seriously crap deal on the widebody variation to your EBA- but in th end it was your decision to make. Having voted 'yes' to EBAs that I subsequently regretted and felt with hindsight I should've voted 'no' I can well understand the process that leads you to feel that the 'yes' is the best way to clear the stress, messiness and general angst that has accompanied these issues. That this stress and messiness is created largely by your own management should be something that you reflect upon over the next five years when it comes around again.
So let's put the crap aside now and decide to work together. You have nothing to lose and five years to decide if AIPA is working in your best interests or not.
No doubt there are pilots in J* who were rejected by QF, AN or DJ- just as there are pilots in QF who were rejected by some/all of the others. I must admit that having been knocked back for a lot of jobs earlier in my life that it certainly did change my perspective on what i'd be prepared to accept. The more knock backs, the less I was prepared to work for to get 'the' job- any job...and I'm not talking flying here. That's not a comment on my actual worth or level of skill, it is however a comment on the perception I had of myself at the time and it came as a result of others reinforcing that negative perception that I obviously wasn't very worthy.
Changing gears slightly, it should be an interesting bunch of flight decks in J* over the next little while considering that 4:10 said 'no' to the deal. I'd lay money on the fact that you won't be able to find 6:10 line drivers who admit they said 'yes'- just as you couldn't find the same number in QF who voted 'yes' to EBA7 a couple of years back.
To summarise the stance I see it from a mainline AIPA supporter. J* crew, you've voted 'yes'. You can have AFAP respond to your EBA for the next five years. You've now got absolutely nothing to lose by giving AIPA a go in the short to medium term. Some of us will be disappointed that you blinked- just as we were disappointed when you said 'yes' to a seriously crap deal on the widebody variation to your EBA- but in th end it was your decision to make. Having voted 'yes' to EBAs that I subsequently regretted and felt with hindsight I should've voted 'no' I can well understand the process that leads you to feel that the 'yes' is the best way to clear the stress, messiness and general angst that has accompanied these issues. That this stress and messiness is created largely by your own management should be something that you reflect upon over the next five years when it comes around again.
So let's put the crap aside now and decide to work together. You have nothing to lose and five years to decide if AIPA is working in your best interests or not.
Airmen and women of any worth are bound together by more than employer, union or background.
Is it something that flows through me, like The Force? Do dentists and bricklayers have their own mythical bond as well?
Please........
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Like it or not, the vote today -and Keg, I'll look at it as half full (6/10) rather than half empty (4/10),-is (or "appears to be" as a missive from AIPA has said) a valid endorsement of the EBA 4.
Those in JQ who are not "attached" to the mainline umbilical cord, should wait with interest to see AIPA's reaction if QF management rejects GOAL, particularly if it's in an environment where J* is expanding internationally over routes and with aircraft that QF mainline drivers might otherwise have expected to go to them. A global economic downturn would create such an environment. That's when the true colours of the participants and the absolute fragility of any deal with AIPA will be exposed.
Those in JQ who are not "attached" to the mainline umbilical cord, should wait with interest to see AIPA's reaction if QF management rejects GOAL, particularly if it's in an environment where J* is expanding internationally over routes and with aircraft that QF mainline drivers might otherwise have expected to go to them. A global economic downturn would create such an environment. That's when the true colours of the participants and the absolute fragility of any deal with AIPA will be exposed.
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Noodles - As a relatively recent J* F/O joiner, I was on an AWA and yes, I effectively voted to dump it and move to an EBA. Many in exactly the same position. This took precedence over the initial salary issues and the 5 year term of the EBA.
At least now, the vast majority are now on the one agreement. (I assume here that most would have elected to move from the AWA's). All we need to do now is sort out the representation issues to our advantage. It's all very confusing.
At least now, the vast majority are now on the one agreement. (I assume here that most would have elected to move from the AWA's). All we need to do now is sort out the representation issues to our advantage. It's all very confusing.
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I agree with Emergen in that if I was on an AWA I too would surely have voted ‘Yes’ to get on an EBA. The fairness or morality of the re-vote using this tactic? Well, the vote probably should always have included ALL Jet* pilots in the first place but I guess management was hoping to get the vote result they wanted and still keep the group split with some on AWAs. That all Jet* pilots are now on the same EBA is certainly a big positive to have come out of this.
Whilst the AFAP is now party to this EBA Jet* pilots are still in a position to make their choice of their representation for the future. I urge you to consider this seriously. United professional representation and a GOAL should still be our long term target as pilots.
Led, you still don’t get it do you? What you’re effectively saying is that if/when Jet* pilots do flying that QF mainline guys thought they were going to get, that mainline pilots will be pissed off and Jet* guys will see that as their true colours. GENIUS! What reaction would you expect? How many times do you have to be told that IF we are not united and IF Jet* is used to the detriment of current mainline pilots then AIPA will be forced to protect the interests of those that it represents! They’ve made no secret of this. THAT IS THE ENTIRE SITUATION WE ARE TRYING TO PREVENT HERE. It’s not in the long term interests of any group of pilots to be used against each other. That is why management fought so hard to try and prevent AIPA having the legal right to represent all.
Oh yeah, while you’re here would you care to answer the question I’ve asked you so many times before? I’m sure you don’t need me to type it again. If AIPA has done the evil things you speak of, and you obviously don’t like them, surely you’d want to tell the other Jet* pilots so they don’t join their evil clutches? Maybe your comments were just a convenient line at the time?
Nuf.
Whilst the AFAP is now party to this EBA Jet* pilots are still in a position to make their choice of their representation for the future. I urge you to consider this seriously. United professional representation and a GOAL should still be our long term target as pilots.
Led, you still don’t get it do you? What you’re effectively saying is that if/when Jet* pilots do flying that QF mainline guys thought they were going to get, that mainline pilots will be pissed off and Jet* guys will see that as their true colours. GENIUS! What reaction would you expect? How many times do you have to be told that IF we are not united and IF Jet* is used to the detriment of current mainline pilots then AIPA will be forced to protect the interests of those that it represents! They’ve made no secret of this. THAT IS THE ENTIRE SITUATION WE ARE TRYING TO PREVENT HERE. It’s not in the long term interests of any group of pilots to be used against each other. That is why management fought so hard to try and prevent AIPA having the legal right to represent all.
Oh yeah, while you’re here would you care to answer the question I’ve asked you so many times before? I’m sure you don’t need me to type it again. If AIPA has done the evil things you speak of, and you obviously don’t like them, surely you’d want to tell the other Jet* pilots so they don’t join their evil clutches? Maybe your comments were just a convenient line at the time?
Nuf.
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Nuf - Enuf of the smoke and mirror stuff old chap, and believe me, I get it EXACTLY.
You are asking us to be “united” with you on the one hand and yet on the other, after signing up to AIPA, if GOAL fails and we get to a scenario where Jetstar pilots are actually assigned flying that the mainline guys thought they were going to get, what do you or AIPA expect Jetstar pilots to do ? Refuse to operate assigned flying or allow QF mainline to take this flying because “big brother” has spoken? It’s an unworkable scenario where the principal vested interest group (QF mainline) within AIPA would end up shafting their J* “brothers” in order to “to protect the interests of those that it represents!”
This is purely a cynical exercise in getting QF mainline pilots access to J* flying if mainline flying heads south. Nothing , repeat, nothing more.
I just don’t think all the implications have been thought through.
You are asking us to be “united” with you on the one hand and yet on the other, after signing up to AIPA, if GOAL fails and we get to a scenario where Jetstar pilots are actually assigned flying that the mainline guys thought they were going to get, what do you or AIPA expect Jetstar pilots to do ? Refuse to operate assigned flying or allow QF mainline to take this flying because “big brother” has spoken? It’s an unworkable scenario where the principal vested interest group (QF mainline) within AIPA would end up shafting their J* “brothers” in order to “to protect the interests of those that it represents!”
This is purely a cynical exercise in getting QF mainline pilots access to J* flying if mainline flying heads south. Nothing , repeat, nothing more.
I just don’t think all the implications have been thought through.
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EBA
I have never read so much tosh in all my life.
Sadly egos on both sides of the fence will sink this potential synergy.
Has any one looked at the BALPA model which represents pilots of different airlines both legacy and low cost.
Each airline has its OWN ELECTED COUNCIL but shares the GROUP resources.
It is not dissimilar to the structure the Qantas GROUP uses.
It does stop a DIVIDE and CONQUER environment though.
Are Jetstar pilots smart enough to ignore the company spin? I fear not sadly.Look at the 457 visas or for example,the LAMES they were bringing out of the grave to break the engineers stop work.Let us not jump at shadows.
Alan Joyce and Qantas will NOT want a UNITED group. Due to the stupidity of pilots they will get their way.
Sadly egos on both sides of the fence will sink this potential synergy.
Has any one looked at the BALPA model which represents pilots of different airlines both legacy and low cost.
Each airline has its OWN ELECTED COUNCIL but shares the GROUP resources.
It is not dissimilar to the structure the Qantas GROUP uses.
It does stop a DIVIDE and CONQUER environment though.
Are Jetstar pilots smart enough to ignore the company spin? I fear not sadly.Look at the 457 visas or for example,the LAMES they were bringing out of the grave to break the engineers stop work.Let us not jump at shadows.
Alan Joyce and Qantas will NOT want a UNITED group. Due to the stupidity of pilots they will get their way.
Led Zeppelin,
That is where you are wrong. Whilst a global economic downturn would hurt all carriers, you can bet your bottom dollar it is the likes of Jetstar who would suffer first. The battlers flying to Phuket/Vietnam/Honolulu on their first ever overseas holiday will no longer be filling the seats of your shiny 787s. The domestic Jetstar market would cop a massive beating too.
I don't wish such a scenario on anyone as it would hurt us all, but in my opinion you're way off the mark.
TL
...particularly if it's in an environment where J* is expanding internationally over routes and with aircraft that QF mainline drivers might otherwise have expected to go to them. A global economic downturn would create such an environment.
I don't wish such a scenario on anyone as it would hurt us all, but in my opinion you're way off the mark.
TL
Fear,already discussed previously prior to the vote.It would be a nice way to go but too utopian for the likes of many.
Led, unfortunately this whole ugly saga rolls on. You shouldn't be gloating about the mainline guys. One thing the GOAL would have done would have been to minimise the risk of having the scenario of what occured to mainline thru Jetstar Int happening to jetstar int itself.
Gee, imagine if qantas made an offer for njs/rex/? and then offered them the 787 at a further reduced rate.
Not possible???? You blokes have proven three times now that scenario is indeed possible. Good luck with the command Led.
Led, unfortunately this whole ugly saga rolls on. You shouldn't be gloating about the mainline guys. One thing the GOAL would have done would have been to minimise the risk of having the scenario of what occured to mainline thru Jetstar Int happening to jetstar int itself.
Gee, imagine if qantas made an offer for njs/rex/? and then offered them the 787 at a further reduced rate.
Not possible???? You blokes have proven three times now that scenario is indeed possible. Good luck with the command Led.
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Thanks for keeping the T & Cs bar low!
Do you guys realise that you'll be some of the lowest 787 drivers in the world?
But its new and its shiny and the other mob dont got em!
Good luck
I love this photo - its just sums up the next 5 years
Do you guys realise that you'll be some of the lowest 787 drivers in the world?
But its new and its shiny and the other mob dont got em!
Good luck
I love this photo - its just sums up the next 5 years