End Of Cabin Crew Seniority In Qf Long Haul?

[lowerlobe]

Bazzamundi...

There are a number of people or groups that post here that are not pilots.

We,like any other group here concerned and fervent about our careers and the possibility of careers in this industry for our children.

Therefore,sometimes the debate gets heated but not any more so than the engineers or pilots or anyone else.

We are not posting anything that is industrially sensitive.

If when reading pprune and you see a cabin crew thread there is no need for you to read it unless you are interested and no one is forcing you to.

[lowerlobe]

We have found out why Darth has been holding off on so many EBA's.Here is the new document that he and the gov have been working on.



Sick Days

We will no longer accept a doctor's statement as proof of sickness. If you are able to go to the doctor,
you are able to come to work.


Personal Days

Each employee will receive 104 personal days a year. They are called Saturday & Sunday.


Bereavement Leave

This is no excuse for missing work. There is nothing you can do for dead friends, relatives or co-workers. Every effort should be made to have non-employees attend to the arrangements. In rare cases where employee involvement is necessary, the funeral should be scheduled in the late afternoon. We will be glad to allow you to work through your lunch hour and subsequently leave one hour early.


Toilet Use

Entirely too much time is being spent in the toilet. There is now strict three-minute time limit in the stalls.
At the end of three minutes, an alarm will sound, the toilet paper roll will retract, the stall door will open and a picture will be taken. After your second offence, your picture will be posted on the company bulletin board under the "Chronic Offenders category". Anyone caught smiling in the picture will be sanctioned under the company's mental health policy.


Lunch Break

Skinny people get 30 minutes for lunch, as they need to eat more, so that they can look healthy. Normal size people get 15 minutes for lunch to get a balanced meal to maintain their average figure. Chubby people get 5 minutes for lunch, because that's all the time needed to drink a Slim-Fast.

Death Clause

Any worker found dead at their desk will be promptly fired. All deaths will need to be applied for in
advance and will only be approved if you can show that your death will not affect productivity.


Thank you for your loyalty to our company. We are here to provide a positive employment experience.
Therefore, all questions, comments, concerns, complaints, frustration's, irritations, aggravations, insinuations, allegations, accusations, contemplations, consternation and input should be directed
elsewhere.

[Willi B]

lowerlobe

With great respect, you're not totally on the money when you say:

I can tell you what the passengers WOULD definitely vote for.
That would be to get rid of management and board members who line their pockets while reducing the service and value the customer (Yes they are customers) get for their money

This regular pax couldn't give a monkeys about your issues with management. My opinion is in part shaped by the criteria used by the Skytrax annual survey for cabin staff at http://www.worldairlineawards.com/Aw...CabinStaff.htm

:: Assistance during boarding
:: Welcoming passengers
:: Applying safety procedures
:: Food & Beverage service efficiency
:: Answering call bell
:: Staff language skills
:: Problem solving ability
:: Discipline among staff
:: Enthusiasm of staff
:: Sincerity of Staff service
:: Friendliness of staff
:: Courtesy of Staff service
:: Consistency of Quality among staff
:: Total service efficiency
:: Total cabin presence
:: Staff grooming & Presentation

In the 2007 survey, QANTAS failed to make the top five in the cabin staff category. Are you seriously suggesting that 14,836,129 respondents of 93 different passenger nationalities have got it wrong?

[DEFCON4]

Maybe

15000 out of 31,000,000

[radiation junkie]

Yes, they have got it wrong, it was not done on an even playing field.
It is a simple as that.

Getting back to the theme of this thread. The whole debate over the upcoming EBA and seniority can be summed up by the robot from "Lost In Space" , sorry, can't remember name, but sounds a lot like GD !

YOU DO NOT MEET COST OF CAP ITAL..... YOU MUST BE DES TROYED....

[lowerlobe]

Willie B..

You must work for a survey company!

First you harp on about the choice magazine survey and now your quoting skytrax.

Is this the same skytrax that has come up with this survey result for jetstar.

World's Best Low Cost Airline
Best Low Cost Airline Australia/Pacific
Best Cabin Crew Australia/Pacific (low cost and full service)


I especially like the last one...Best Cabin Crew AUSTRALIA...FULL SERVICE....WTF

Remember Willie B as the saying goes there are 3 types of lies in this world..

Lies
Damn Lies
Statistics

[Willi B]

Ah, lowerlobe, me auld. Sorry to disappoint. I'm just a mere hewer of wood and drawer of water; a toiler in the vinyard; and mug flying punter who wants value for money, and not cabin crew with 'attitude', when he travels.

And a survey of some 15,000,000 respondents has statistical validity - even if you and your erstwhile cohorts on here don't like what it says.

[lowerlobe]

Ahh Willie B....You seem to have an axe to grind with QF cabin Crew.

However,there are some inconsistencies in your argument.

I took the time to look the skyrax ratings and for the cabin crew ratings there are just over 3,534,000 respondents not 15 million as you suggest.

Are you seriously suggesting that all 3,534,000 have flown on every airline including QF and can subjectively tell you that QF is better or worse than all the others.

What they can say is about their experience with a certain number of airlines not all of them.

I note that the top 3 or 4 are all Asian and anyone with any understanding of cultures will know that the Australian culture is not one of subservience.If you want the Asian experience then go right ahead and fly with one of them.

My point with voting out upper management is very valid becasue if it wasn't for their policies then their crews might not have the 'attitude' that you are not fond of.They could also spend money on things like IFE and food instead of increasing bonus' for themselves.

However to put these surveys that you are so fond of in perspective look at the Jetstar awards.

Since when was jetstar a full service airline?

So much for the accuracy of these surveys you love to mention.

[Willi B]

Lowerlobe me old cock sparra, you really are a a tad devious.

For the Skytrax cabin staff awards, read what the Skytrax CEO said:

Returning to former winning ways, Malaysia Airlines has won the 2007 World's Best Cabin Staff title, in a very closely contested survey.

"For the last 4 weeks of this survey, we have seen the winning position move around between the final Top 3 airlines several times" commented Edward Plaisted (CEO of the survey organisation, Skytrax).

"In the end, Malaysia Airlines passenger support saw them through to the 2007 title, and we congratulate them for this worthy achievement. Last year's winner, Thai Airways took 3rd place, with Singapore Airlines moving up the rankings into a very close 2nd position, and Cathay Pacific also returning to the top 5 airlines (from 8th in 2006). Qatar Airways is the only non-Asian airline to feature in the top 5 ranking, and they are also named as Best Cabin Staff for the Middle East regional award" added Plaisted.

"Evidently the central role of cabin staff is to ensure the safety of passengers in their care, and this is a responsibility that achieves a good rating for a majority of the world's airlines. Our survey to identify the 'Best' cabin staff standards is based upon assessing a lot more - in effect, we are asking passengers to quantify the quality of their onboard experiences. In addition to the designated hard-service features (eg serving meals), we wanted customers to look at the soft service as well. This covers a wide range of factors - friendliness, enthusiasm and attentiveness of staff, through to the sincerity with which service is provided. Consistency is another critical area, and a key factor in determining future customer loyalty. We often tend to re-purchase a product or service that has served us well in the past, and an airline's cabin staff play a vital role in terms of how a customer may look back on a previous flight as a guide to their future loyalty" said Plaisted.

You don't like these comments, and want to play the race card:

I note that the top 3 or 4 are all Asian and anyone with any understanding of cultures will know that the Australian culture is not one of subservience.If you want the Asian experience then go right ahead and fly with one of them.

With great respect old son, customer service has no correlation with ethnicity. May I humbly suggest that, while safety remains a priority, the travelling public looks for more than the QF Cabin Crew Soviet's "not in my duty statement" that you and your colleagues seem to espouse.

[mrpaxing]

there is more

willi b., but i say you do have a point.
lets go back and increase the cabin crew numbers as it should be, then get a management who appriciates and motivates crew. it does not go well within the ranks if you are called a bun tosser. then fix the ever ongoing
ife problems so crew can actually go and do what they are supposed to be doing and stop permanantly apologising. in my opinion,various crew bases around the world have not contributed to consistancy at all. if anything,the opposite is the fact.i food is another matter altogether, sorry, mr. platinum ff, you can't have the fish in first class , we haven't got any left. i do apologise on behalf of management. lets not get side tracked by all this little issues which may affect a customers perspective. i better stop now before it turns into a novel.
in a nutshell, we dont have the resources onboard in general as other competitors do. we do have a very mixed bag of cabin crew, i'll give you that

[RedTBar]

we do have a very mixed bag of cabin crew,

Does anyone know of an organisation with this number of people who are not different.

Australians are not robotic but I'm sure the company would like us to be.
mrpaxing raises a good point and that it is difficult to compete with other crews when there are up to 50% more of them.

If management treats any employee with the same attitude that ours does then those employees would not be giving their best as well.Some pax seem to only care about how they are treated but could not care less about why.
I agree with LL,the old sparrow seems to have a score to settle with QF CC and is happy to grab any survey which justifies his thoughts.

All you have to do is watch both political parties at the moment and watch them twist the same survey results to suit themselves.The survey that LL found is interesting in regards to Jokestar being a full service airline.

So much for that survey company and for little Willies argument.

[Willi B]

mrpaxing

You make an interesting and relevant point. The world’s most customer focused staff are significantly handicapped if the aircraft’s “fixtures and fittings” don’t complement the human factor.

In your forthcoming EBA negotiations, you and your union should consider putting this, and the crew numbers issue, on the table as part of a productivity based claim.

RedTBar

Although lacking in originality, you're nothing if not predictable. Don't let rational argument and debate get in the way of your loathing for management and propensity for personal abuse towards anybody who offers a contrary view. Let's get the violins out, so that you can try and evoke sympathy from us mug punters. If I'm board, I'll say, "Really, old fruit, your sob story has touched my heart: please accept this box of tissues as an expression of my deepest sympathy".

[RedTBar]

Willie

Your outburst shows that you have little to debate with.Show me where in my post I abused you?In fact all you can do is resort to sarcasm when you have run out of ideas and points to raise.

You can't even get your figures correct as LL as shown.The survey company which you talk about thinks that J* is a full service airline.

If you are in business then you should be able to analyze a problem and you can't seem to grasp that issue here.In fact you show an absolute lack of understanding of the situation when you suggest that we raise the issue of “fixtures and fittings” and crew numbers.

I can see the board saying "Well,OK we did not know that there are not enough crew compared to our nearest comptitors and that the IFE system is lousy".

If the employees are being treated with derision then how on earth do you expect them to exude...

friendliness, enthusiasm and attentiveness of staff, through to the sincerity with which service is provided.

..

When this issue is raised all you can exude is sarcasm.

As LL has said you obviously have an issue with us so fly with someone else if you think they are so much better.That is the beauty of living in a democratic world.Perhaps you should go back to trying to impersonate a pirate..old cock sparra

[Willi B]

RedTBar

While you froth and foam about nothing in particular, you might consider the commercial environment that your employer finds itself in.

According to Derek Sadubin in today’s ‘Oz’, if you are booking travel overseas from Perth or Brisbane, there are seven chances out of 10 you’ll be flying with a foreign airline.

Comparable figures for Melbourne and Sydney are around six in ten.

It’s therefore hardly rocket science that QF will be looking for efficiency and productivity gains to try and improve market share.

At least your union appreciates this. In today’s Oz, Michael Majatov is quoted as saying that the union has no doubt that management will have a “massive” agenda, and is anticipating a tough bargaining environment.

Slagging off here anonymously, in some one else’s paid bandwidth, about John Howard, QF management and truculent passengers like me might make you feel good. Unfortunately, it doesn’t cut much ice at the bargaining table, or in the broader community. Like it or not, QF can (and does) have the best flight deck and engineering staff, yet be let down by the poor attitude of some of its cabin staff. And it’s the attitude that the punters remember, even though the rest of the package is first class.

[radiation junkie]

LH Seniority ??

"let down by the poor attitude of some of its cabin staff" . What a crock of 5hit.


Let us get back to the topic at hand and not keep stroking the warped ego and misguided quotes of willie B.

[mrpaxing]

big call

"Like it or not, QF can (and does) have the best flight deck and engineering staff, yet be let down by the poor attitude of some of its cabin staff. And it’s the attitude that the punters remember, even though the rest of the package is first class".
willi b. lets me widen the horizon on this issue and i will include ground staff in this. ground staff deal with customers, but cabin crews spend the most time with customers. eg.FF is not getting his prefered seat, his points are not available for ugrade (again), the flight has another delay, he/ she misses his/ her connecting flight, then you add onboard product failures and HERE STANDS YOUR FLIGHT ATTENDANT IN FRONT OF YOU. YOUR PERFECT TARGET (and there is little one can do up at 37000 feet to rectify many of those problems).pilots & engineers are not dealing with mishandled or any customers. month after month/year after year of negative experiences having to listen to too many bad news some cabin crew are disengaged at times(refer to inhouse survey). as i mentioned before, add cabin crew management which are mainly interested in their targets(so the bonus payment comes in), and you have a difficult situation at hand. to get staff more engaged managment has to "earn their respect" and provide motivation and satisfaction. do those issues have any room in the upcoming eba- i doubt it

[lowerlobe]

Willie B's real agenda has been revealed finally and that is mainly because I showed his figures for what they were....BS

He could not even get his numbers right for the cabin crew surveys.He was only out by around 12 million.

The survey said that J* was a full service airline as well so you have to wonder about their other surveys.

Willie B's agenda is the same as aircraft,managers perspective etc...etc... and that is to try and quell the anti management posts here.They want to tell us how hard the company is having it etc.....and Willie talks about the box of tissues.

Willie will you explain to us about the record profit...and the fact that a group wanted to borrow a huge amount of money and buy QF.

Oh yeah QF is doing it tough all right...me old cock sparrow...

[resboy]

where does it say in the survey that J* is a full service airline?

[DEFCON4]

QF Out Of Touch

In MEL Airport there is an adverstisement that has been placed by Deloitte.
Two things standout...a CEO should have "listening"as a skill and one of his/her responsibilites is "staff morale"
Dixon and his crew are deaf and dixon sees "staff morale"as a funny term.
In answer to Willi Bs comments....if you are not happy you dont smile.
This applies to most of QF cabin crew population.
Dixon has declared war on all of his employees....not just crew.
CC tend to be a target for all those individuals whose expectations are not being met.
Travel in real terms is cheaper than it has ever been.
Expectations have never been higher.
People like Wiili B tend not to understand what is really going on at Qantas.
Resources have been reduced ot critical levels...this includes the human resource.
There are less crew on a QF 744 than any other airline with the exception of Air NZ.
Il Duce has admitted in a Strategy Day that "we stuffed up" with the IFE.
QF has one of the oldest fleets in thw world.
The classics are well past their use by dates.
The 767s have been a fantastic workhorse but are now looking tired.
Very few individuals in the course of their employment need to continually apologize for problems and failures not of their making.
Quite frankly crew are an easy target..easy to attack and apart from forums like this are unable to defend themselves.
Crew are abused on a regular basis.After awhile it wears thin and the smile disappears.No one smiles when they are under attack in the trenches.
Employees are attacked by management and Customers alike.
Then there is the response.."if you dont like it leave"
Sorry, that is getting just a little tired.
The comraderie that exists among QF employees is unique.
The truth is that Dixon and Crew have no idea how to tap into to it so they ignore,threaten and intimidate.
CC do their job well and the company's own Performance Behaviour reviews indicate that.There are about 5% of CC who shouldnt be in the job.
Both Crew and management know who they are.
This leaves 95% of CC who meet and exceed company expectations.
It would appear that this does not correlate to customer expectations.
So who is to blame for this?
Are all 6000 QF CC lazy whinging malingerers?
Are customer expectations still stuck in the 70s?
Does the buck stop with Dixon?.
Willi B and others would have you believe it is the CC who are entirely at fault.
You would have to "live"on plane to make that assertion.
Complimentary letters always exceed complaints..the company data verifies this.
Then there are the bases.
The Kiwi base is worked into the ground.
The BKK crew are worked so hard some have passed out onboard.
Many Oz based crew are so concerned about job security they go to work sick.
The LHR base they are here for a good time not a long time.
Then there are the casuals who live in the hope of being offered full time work..it aint ever gonna happen...dixon will tell you that.
CC are human beings..many have children.
Most miss out on Christmas,wedding anniversaries.birthdays, all public holidays and childbirths.
The aviation industry is both dynamic and addictive.
There are challenges every day and night...never a dull moment.
The perception of CC is that it is just one movable party.
In the 60s 70 and 80s it was....not any more
The time spent at home is, as a minimum, 18 days in 56.Two more days in the same period as a 9 to 5 employee.
But then let's take into account RDOs and public holidays.These are not available to CC..
Slip time in foreign ports is now minimal.
4 Day LAX Patterns.
Leave SYD Friday morning...13 hour flight time
Arrive LAX 0630 Local time..awake all night
Go to bed..wake up, eat and then try to get some more sleep
Leave Saturday Night....14 hour flight time.
Arrive Sydney 0630 Monday morning.
Sleep,look after the kids,say hello to your partner and start getting ready to do it again.
For many crew this is their life.
Jetlag,fatigue,customer abuse and company intimidation.
What a glamorous life!
Now,what about pay?
The base pay for a 5 year FA is around $52,000 gross.
There are other components that bump this up.
Picture this ...the company forces you onto leave for 3 months on base pay.
You either go broke or get a second job.
For all the naysayers..how good is service on an American Carrier?
This where QF is heading....and at accelerating pace
Dixon pays lipservice to service
He has already reduced CC costs by 15%...a further 20% to go.
Folks if you complain about service now...just wait til Dixon achieves his cost cutting goal......there will be NONE!
In the ASX Qantas is listed under transport.
The blame is with Dixon...to him you are all cattle paying for a place on his transport...Self Loading Freight.
The days of service on Airliners is coming to an end.
As far as Dixon is concerned you have all been overserviced for too long.
You may not want to lower the standard.
Employees definitely dont....regardless of what you are told to the contrary!
Too bad... Dixon is doing it for you.
You have as much control over it as the employees...NONE!

[Shlonghaul]

Very good post Defcon Sad but so true...... And will once again fall on deaf ears. Our esteemed executives are only interested in looking after they're own bonuses.