End Of Cabin Crew Seniority In Qf Long Haul?
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Originally Posted by Lowerlobe
Well,Twiggsy if you were crew you would know that everytime you sit in a jump seat YOU SHOULD be expecting the worst and be prepared for it.Thats what we are there for and not to serve some clowns idea of what food is.
Any other time, get real, if you are walking around mid flight and can't smile because you think something is going to happen then that is a bit strange.
Actually though lobe, we are there to serve the passengers food or whatever they need. Just because our primary role is that of safety, doesn't mean we don't have other roles.
I can't believe you lot are even defending the right NOT to smile!
You are an embarrassment, but at least I don't fly with people like you very often.
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Why smile ?
WOW, had a busy weekend and what a bun fight I have missed. LL in damage control. D4 ... "only the facts, Mam" . Twiggs, spinning on the spot as usual !
After 30 years and a knock back victim from the last VR fiasco (B'first), yes, I do have an attitude of total disengagement from the greedy bonus grabbing management clowns, but I do still love my job, and yes, I do still smile and treat our pax with the respect and professional care they deserve. This is to do with character and self respect as I would assume most LH crew would agree with. The FAAA has a big job ahead with the new EBA and the rumours of seniority destruction, but regardless of the outcome, I will still keep smiling at the pax , right up to the point where I am forced to leave due to the decimation of our conditions and seniority. There is nothing Qantas can do that will surprise me, as I am near the end of my flying days, but do feel sympathy for the junior crew who are blindly destroying their own future and grabbing at an equality that will never be achieved.
Keep smiling, we will need it to survive.... as our very own GD and his "lost in space" management robots say:
'YOU DO NOT MEET COST OF CAP ITAL...YOU MUST BE DES TROYED"...
After 30 years and a knock back victim from the last VR fiasco (B'first), yes, I do have an attitude of total disengagement from the greedy bonus grabbing management clowns, but I do still love my job, and yes, I do still smile and treat our pax with the respect and professional care they deserve. This is to do with character and self respect as I would assume most LH crew would agree with. The FAAA has a big job ahead with the new EBA and the rumours of seniority destruction, but regardless of the outcome, I will still keep smiling at the pax , right up to the point where I am forced to leave due to the decimation of our conditions and seniority. There is nothing Qantas can do that will surprise me, as I am near the end of my flying days, but do feel sympathy for the junior crew who are blindly destroying their own future and grabbing at an equality that will never be achieved.
Keep smiling, we will need it to survive.... as our very own GD and his "lost in space" management robots say:
'YOU DO NOT MEET COST OF CAP ITAL...YOU MUST BE DES TROYED"...
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Originally Posted by radiation junkie
I do have an attitude of total disengagement from the greedy bonus grabbing management clowns, but I do still love my job, and yes, I do still smile and treat our pax with the respect and professional care they deserve
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Personally, as much as I would rather keep the system as it is, we have to go into possibly our most important battle with a united front. Everyone has to be in this together. As much as I disagree with the more junior who despise the system, without their support we are basically all gone.
A couple of ideas, they are only ideas so don't get personal. Worth discussing however.
Perhaps we should look at giving them a system of leave (rotating seniority) so the young mothers can get leave over school holidays once every say three years. When it comes to Christmas, those of us in the top third will be able to get the X days if not on leave, so it shouldn't cost us too badly. But it will give something to those who whine below.
I also feel not too much will be lost by doing similar to the techcrew and using a bucket style system. Perhaps a certain amount of direct LA's max, and maybe one San Fran per person per roster. This would share them around. I do feel dismayed when some who go to San Fran sit in their rooms the whole time, and talk about how they only go there back to back. May as well sit in your room in LA if you want. Those of us who go to the states and nowhere else can still do so, just maybe on slightly different trips. Not too much lost.
Perhaps a limit on Europes also, maybe 2 a roster. Should get more people there who want to go.
Personally, I am also in favour of 1 night slips over there (LA). Have done a few and would rather the extra days at home each roster if I can do them and nothing else. Just my opinion. Not everyone likes them so more of a mix perhaps.
Otherwise keep the system as it is. Us more senior have only lost a very small amount while those down the list should achieve a much greater return in theory. At least enough to keep them in the same trench when the battle nears.
The company gets some of what they want, and in return we need a few things. Pay. Us senior ones are the worst hit by the assigning of long service and annual leave and this needs to be addressed. Real pay has diminished for most in the last couple of years due to this, less allowances and Long Range after the London base, and the falling US dollar diminishing the value of US allowances. This needs to be fixed. Going backwards like we have been has to stop.
Recongniton of the contribution of cabin crew is also high. It really annoys me that we get portrayed as we do and respected as such. I feel insulted when paxing and getting bumped by all manner of staff from an upgrade. On one trip, the whole crew paxed home and the 4 tech crew (second officers included) got put in first while we were spread elsewhere. Surely the CSM is a senior manager in this company who should at least command the same respect or more as S/O's who always seem to travel in much more style. Same goes for uni graduates with 3 months in the company bumping someone who has 20 years plus. It is felt as an insult from the company when the above happens to a lot. They do not respect the effort and job we do.
To win, we are going to have to give a little, but demand a lot more in return.
United we must fight. Give a little and hopefully gain a lot.
A couple of ideas, they are only ideas so don't get personal. Worth discussing however.
Perhaps we should look at giving them a system of leave (rotating seniority) so the young mothers can get leave over school holidays once every say three years. When it comes to Christmas, those of us in the top third will be able to get the X days if not on leave, so it shouldn't cost us too badly. But it will give something to those who whine below.
I also feel not too much will be lost by doing similar to the techcrew and using a bucket style system. Perhaps a certain amount of direct LA's max, and maybe one San Fran per person per roster. This would share them around. I do feel dismayed when some who go to San Fran sit in their rooms the whole time, and talk about how they only go there back to back. May as well sit in your room in LA if you want. Those of us who go to the states and nowhere else can still do so, just maybe on slightly different trips. Not too much lost.
Perhaps a limit on Europes also, maybe 2 a roster. Should get more people there who want to go.
Personally, I am also in favour of 1 night slips over there (LA). Have done a few and would rather the extra days at home each roster if I can do them and nothing else. Just my opinion. Not everyone likes them so more of a mix perhaps.
Otherwise keep the system as it is. Us more senior have only lost a very small amount while those down the list should achieve a much greater return in theory. At least enough to keep them in the same trench when the battle nears.
The company gets some of what they want, and in return we need a few things. Pay. Us senior ones are the worst hit by the assigning of long service and annual leave and this needs to be addressed. Real pay has diminished for most in the last couple of years due to this, less allowances and Long Range after the London base, and the falling US dollar diminishing the value of US allowances. This needs to be fixed. Going backwards like we have been has to stop.
Recongniton of the contribution of cabin crew is also high. It really annoys me that we get portrayed as we do and respected as such. I feel insulted when paxing and getting bumped by all manner of staff from an upgrade. On one trip, the whole crew paxed home and the 4 tech crew (second officers included) got put in first while we were spread elsewhere. Surely the CSM is a senior manager in this company who should at least command the same respect or more as S/O's who always seem to travel in much more style. Same goes for uni graduates with 3 months in the company bumping someone who has 20 years plus. It is felt as an insult from the company when the above happens to a lot. They do not respect the effort and job we do.
To win, we are going to have to give a little, but demand a lot more in return.
United we must fight. Give a little and hopefully gain a lot.
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Give and Take?
We give....they take.
They give....nothing.
Sounds fair....not
Give the bastards nothing.
What is a junior cabin crew member.?
Less than 15 years...less than 10...less than 5?
There are not as many junior crew as everyone thinks
If you have 15 years seniority your seniority is around 2300.
So there are 2300 crew more senior than 15 years.
How many long haul crew are there?Around 3200?
So there are 700 with less than 15 years seniority.
Not a majority.
So if the senior boys and girls give up something what are the junior boys and girls going to give up?
So we have junior,senior,company.
The company wants something, the juniors want something.
The only people giving and getting nothing are the senior crew.
Its really only the top 10% in each category who get want they want.
The rest of us get a compromise.
Me? I get the compromise..I am happy with that.
I would not be happy with what the company is offering.
They are offering AKL base conditions and nothing in return
They give....nothing.
Sounds fair....not
Give the bastards nothing.
What is a junior cabin crew member.?
Less than 15 years...less than 10...less than 5?
There are not as many junior crew as everyone thinks
If you have 15 years seniority your seniority is around 2300.
So there are 2300 crew more senior than 15 years.
How many long haul crew are there?Around 3200?
So there are 700 with less than 15 years seniority.
Not a majority.
So if the senior boys and girls give up something what are the junior boys and girls going to give up?
So we have junior,senior,company.
The company wants something, the juniors want something.
The only people giving and getting nothing are the senior crew.
Its really only the top 10% in each category who get want they want.
The rest of us get a compromise.
Me? I get the compromise..I am happy with that.
I would not be happy with what the company is offering.
They are offering AKL base conditions and nothing in return
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I am lucky enough to not get exactly what I want, but a reasonable share by being realistic in bidding.
However, my concern is the way things are going and the changes proposed I will get a huge amount less than that if it goes ahead the way they want it to.
There are a lot of bleaters out there with 15 years in the company. I am concerned that the numbers complaining may be enough to divide us to the extent it may weaken our overall resolve.
I don't want to give away anything but as always am happy to trade if I get something better. Changes to the bidding system must, and i repeat must, translate to improvements in other areas.
If push comes to shove do you think there is enough unity at present to flex some industrial muscle if required? I hope so.
However, my concern is the way things are going and the changes proposed I will get a huge amount less than that if it goes ahead the way they want it to.
There are a lot of bleaters out there with 15 years in the company. I am concerned that the numbers complaining may be enough to divide us to the extent it may weaken our overall resolve.
I don't want to give away anything but as always am happy to trade if I get something better. Changes to the bidding system must, and i repeat must, translate to improvements in other areas.
If push comes to shove do you think there is enough unity at present to flex some industrial muscle if required? I hope so.
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Our Own Worst Enemy
Just about everything that we have lost over the years has been down to minorities within our ranks.
The bid system is a perfect example.The"girls union"...a minority was responsible for its introduction and the loss of 75% standown.
Then when the deal was done and dusted they said we were conned.
The company had lied to them.
Gullible,naive and motivated by personal selfish interest.
Human beings are motivated by the primal of emotions......greed.
Promise them a rainbow and they would sell their own mother.
Same in this situation
We will get done over bigtime due to our self interest.
I expected to stay a few more years.
What I read on PPrune gives me little hope of an eqitable outcome.
I dont expect to be here in twelve months because there is no unity.
Management has these tea and bickie afternoons to glean this information.
From what they've heard they expect the EBA to be a walkover.
The worlds best job will be destroyed by the very people who do it.
The company just simply provides the forum for our own self destruction.
What a sad bloody irony?
The bid system is a perfect example.The"girls union"...a minority was responsible for its introduction and the loss of 75% standown.
Then when the deal was done and dusted they said we were conned.
The company had lied to them.
Gullible,naive and motivated by personal selfish interest.
Human beings are motivated by the primal of emotions......greed.
Promise them a rainbow and they would sell their own mother.
Same in this situation
We will get done over bigtime due to our self interest.
I expected to stay a few more years.
What I read on PPrune gives me little hope of an eqitable outcome.
I dont expect to be here in twelve months because there is no unity.
Management has these tea and bickie afternoons to glean this information.
From what they've heard they expect the EBA to be a walkover.
The worlds best job will be destroyed by the very people who do it.
The company just simply provides the forum for our own self destruction.
What a sad bloody irony?
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Try to see what I am saying. We need unity. Come up with suggestions how to achieve this.
Otherwise, lets change nothing, fight as we are and have for the last few years. Where has that got us? The last 5 years has seen the biggest erosion of conditions. We need to stop the tide running out.
And don't argue the election will fix everything overnight. Legislation changes take in most cases years to get through. Look how long it has taken the Liberals to get us where we are. They would have wanted to do it years ago but it took them until now. And they have a senate majority to do so. Don't think it won't take Labor a long time to unravel the mess making big changes to the way we do things.
Otherwise, lets change nothing, fight as we are and have for the last few years. Where has that got us? The last 5 years has seen the biggest erosion of conditions. We need to stop the tide running out.
And don't argue the election will fix everything overnight. Legislation changes take in most cases years to get through. Look how long it has taken the Liberals to get us where we are. They would have wanted to do it years ago but it took them until now. And they have a senate majority to do so. Don't think it won't take Labor a long time to unravel the mess making big changes to the way we do things.
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I for one don't mind sharing the trips around more equitably so that those at the bottom have more in the way of choice.
My concerns are that these kind of arrangements [packaged and gift-wrapped] will be nothing more than a smokescreen used to blind-side the naive whilst other hard one conditions are stripped to the bone.
3 day LAX trips, i.e. 24 hour slip?
You have to be kidding.
So desperate are management [cough] to recruit and maintain numbers in AKL that NZ's equivalent of the CES is now used to recruit. [dont even start me on the standard
]
I don't think Longhaulers are stupid enough to vote yes to anything that destroys our careers.
----------------------
Interesting thread about the success of one of managements [cough] alternative workforces..........
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=724164
My concerns are that these kind of arrangements [packaged and gift-wrapped] will be nothing more than a smokescreen used to blind-side the naive whilst other hard one conditions are stripped to the bone.
3 day LAX trips, i.e. 24 hour slip?
You have to be kidding.
So desperate are management [cough] to recruit and maintain numbers in AKL that NZ's equivalent of the CES is now used to recruit. [dont even start me on the standard
]I don't think Longhaulers are stupid enough to vote yes to anything that destroys our careers.
----------------------
Interesting thread about the success of one of managements [cough] alternative workforces..........
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=724164
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By one night I meant 39 hours. Not 24. And not for all of them, keep a lot at the 60 hour mark. It's just that some of us prefer the 4 day ones. Some carry on about how wrong they are. Look how senior some of the 4 day trips get at times.
Not saying everyone else has to like that, put it up for a vote and see. Democratic majority rules and we all abide by that. If the majority think otherwise, I am happy to accept that and will not mention it again.
Not saying everyone else has to like that, put it up for a vote and see. Democratic majority rules and we all abide by that. If the majority think otherwise, I am happy to accept that and will not mention it again.
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As I read the varied and interesting posts for this subject I find myself torn between the different opinions penned.
I wholeheartedly agree with the concept that we need to be careful when tinkering with the seniority based bidding system for short term gain. It has rewarded crew over the years. Things like access to lifestyle rostering, ability to bid with mates, and a system that for most parts is transparent and creates order, ie. we know where we stand in the game.
The system that we operate under is around 20 years old. Since it was introduced a number of critical changes has occurred -
* overseas bases
* Melbourne & Brisbane bases
* reduced local recruitment
* less destinations
* increased long range flying
* Australian Airlines/Jetstar
* Short Haul regional flying
Over that time, minimal if any changes have been made to the way the bidding system operates. Some of the arguments I hear to maintain the system as is, I believe fail to recognise these important events in our flying. In MEL you have the situation where 15% of the base earns substantially more than the remainder, and another 15% struggle to even gain a trip with a slip port.
Although there will always be extreme views on the fringes of our community, I don't believe most junior crew want the bidding system based on seniority abolished. The concept of seniority and what it has to offer is well regarded. Most just want the system to evolve and respect their circumstances.
Suggestions that I think have merit and are worth discussion include rotating seniority for leave, capping of selected trips, bidding for style of trips as opposed to specific trips. In addition, is it worth considering the introduction of casuals and FWA system (dumping and picking up of trips) that short haul has?
I hope the majority of us in here continue the positive discussion and expression of ideas that has occurred to date and we achieve some well deserved wins come EBA.
I wholeheartedly agree with the concept that we need to be careful when tinkering with the seniority based bidding system for short term gain. It has rewarded crew over the years. Things like access to lifestyle rostering, ability to bid with mates, and a system that for most parts is transparent and creates order, ie. we know where we stand in the game.
The system that we operate under is around 20 years old. Since it was introduced a number of critical changes has occurred -
* overseas bases
* Melbourne & Brisbane bases
* reduced local recruitment
* less destinations
* increased long range flying
* Australian Airlines/Jetstar
* Short Haul regional flying
Over that time, minimal if any changes have been made to the way the bidding system operates. Some of the arguments I hear to maintain the system as is, I believe fail to recognise these important events in our flying. In MEL you have the situation where 15% of the base earns substantially more than the remainder, and another 15% struggle to even gain a trip with a slip port.
Although there will always be extreme views on the fringes of our community, I don't believe most junior crew want the bidding system based on seniority abolished. The concept of seniority and what it has to offer is well regarded. Most just want the system to evolve and respect their circumstances.
Suggestions that I think have merit and are worth discussion include rotating seniority for leave, capping of selected trips, bidding for style of trips as opposed to specific trips. In addition, is it worth considering the introduction of casuals and FWA system (dumping and picking up of trips) that short haul has?
I hope the majority of us in here continue the positive discussion and expression of ideas that has occurred to date and we achieve some well deserved wins come EBA.
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Qantas can upgrade to the new software whenever they want, providing the terms of our EBA are enforced, ie language in seniority then general seniority.
Therefore we should be keen to get the new software before any change to the EBA happens.
Only then will we know if the new software is able to improve anyone's rosters UNDER OUR PRESENT EBA.
Therefore we should be keen to get the new software before any change to the EBA happens.
Only then will we know if the new software is able to improve anyone's rosters UNDER OUR PRESENT EBA.
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My understanding is that the system that the company wants (jeppesen) is not just a software upgrade but a whole new system.
Therefore,it is not just an add on but a seperate entity.The problem is not just what they say it can do but what they can use it to do.
When the company was pushing the bid system they told us a number of things that turned out vastly different to what we were led to believe.
Be wary of anyone advising us to do something before the EBA has expired.
Therefore,it is not just an add on but a seperate entity.The problem is not just what they say it can do but what they can use it to do.
When the company was pushing the bid system they told us a number of things that turned out vastly different to what we were led to believe.
Be wary of anyone advising us to do something before the EBA has expired.
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So tell me where in the EBA it says Qantas have to use the current 20 year old software to allocate our trips on seniority?
I think that Qantas would rather not implement it straight away, because then we would see a marked improvement in rosters, even for more junior crew, and consequently lessen the push to abandon seniority from the junior ranks.
I think that Qantas would rather not implement it straight away, because then we would see a marked improvement in rosters, even for more junior crew, and consequently lessen the push to abandon seniority from the junior ranks.
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lets get the fact right
the current so called bid system has had 35+ changes since its original version was introduced in 88.
the jeppeson system is a new system
it is designated to be active in the 3rd quarter in 08 with the introduction of the A380.
it will accomandate all Qf lh/sh tech & cabin crew.
the original version is a senority based system.
i agree with Tbar "When the company was pushing the bid system they told us a number of things that turned out vastly different to what we were led to believe.
Be wary of anyone advising us to do something before the EBA has expired".
the jeppeson system is a new system
it is designated to be active in the 3rd quarter in 08 with the introduction of the A380.
it will accomandate all Qf lh/sh tech & cabin crew.
the original version is a senority based system.
i agree with Tbar "When the company was pushing the bid system they told us a number of things that turned out vastly different to what we were led to believe.
Be wary of anyone advising us to do something before the EBA has expired".
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mrpaxing and tbar are right.it's not what the company tells us it can do but what they want to do with it thats a worry.
the rugby league scrum is telling us to go straight into it and no worries
'we would see a marked improvement in rosters' says the scrum.yeah right girly
if dixon told us tomorro was wed i wouldn't believe him or the scrum
the rugby league scrum is telling us to go straight into it and no worries
'we would see a marked improvement in rosters' says the scrum.yeah right girly
if dixon told us tomorro was wed i wouldn't believe him or the scrum
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Originally Posted by mrpaxing
it is designated to be active in the 3rd quarter in 08 with the introduction of the A380.
