Spanish ATC
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Many pilots here seem to lack overall experience, otherwise they would stop complaining about a highly professional and highly efficient system: Going into PHL from the north, quite normal for European carriers, you will have to reach FL240 160NM out, 16.000 when 100NM. Look for that in Europe!
While cheapo airlines avoid paying 60 Euros for a dispatched flightplan by relying on automated dispatch systems, you do not have a reason to complain: You just get what you asked for. If you want more favourable routes, then go ahead and file proper flight plans. Any direct is a favour provided by professional services; I ask for it, I appreciate it, and I say a heartfelt thank you. ATC is not there to iron out inefficient operations of cheap airline ops. Stop punishing the messengers. All our airlines were the first to ask for the cheapest service possible. Now that we've got it, you are whining like little kids.
Professional pilots are paid for to do their jobs with the equipment and the services their employers are willing to provide, and professional pilots do their best within the environment provided, like the rest of the world, by the way. IMHO, this threat is a place where a bunch of alpha animals show that they are unable coming to terms with the world not turning along their lines. You most probably would fail the psych test at our joint. Grow up!
Many threats here on PPRuNe show that a majority is unhappy with us pilots not being able to get pay rates they think we deserve. Still, you show contempt for those still putting up a fight (this topic), and you view it as your God given right to play the blacklegs where other pilots try to save their collective agreement (e.g. Aerologic thread). You envy others their better terms, and that is the most selfish you can be. Lowly!
Even Maastricht acknowledges overloaded sectors, and you still complain about not getting a direct, which in most cases saves 1-2 miles, that is 10-20 seconds.
I would rather accept delays if traffic can be savely controlled that way than pushing controllers over the brink; had it several times (PMI, LOS, BKK) - ugly! But me thinks many here in this forum think they know it all, can do it all (by themselves), go eat some humble pie - you can tell those guys by flying thru ash clouds w/o reliable data, but high spirits and overconfidence will make another threat. It ain't very professional, though.
Now, go ahead and beat me!
(edited for typos - you find any, keep 'em!)
While cheapo airlines avoid paying 60 Euros for a dispatched flightplan by relying on automated dispatch systems, you do not have a reason to complain: You just get what you asked for. If you want more favourable routes, then go ahead and file proper flight plans. Any direct is a favour provided by professional services; I ask for it, I appreciate it, and I say a heartfelt thank you. ATC is not there to iron out inefficient operations of cheap airline ops. Stop punishing the messengers. All our airlines were the first to ask for the cheapest service possible. Now that we've got it, you are whining like little kids.
Professional pilots are paid for to do their jobs with the equipment and the services their employers are willing to provide, and professional pilots do their best within the environment provided, like the rest of the world, by the way. IMHO, this threat is a place where a bunch of alpha animals show that they are unable coming to terms with the world not turning along their lines. You most probably would fail the psych test at our joint. Grow up!
Many threats here on PPRuNe show that a majority is unhappy with us pilots not being able to get pay rates they think we deserve. Still, you show contempt for those still putting up a fight (this topic), and you view it as your God given right to play the blacklegs where other pilots try to save their collective agreement (e.g. Aerologic thread). You envy others their better terms, and that is the most selfish you can be. Lowly!
Even Maastricht acknowledges overloaded sectors, and you still complain about not getting a direct, which in most cases saves 1-2 miles, that is 10-20 seconds.
I would rather accept delays if traffic can be savely controlled that way than pushing controllers over the brink; had it several times (PMI, LOS, BKK) - ugly! But me thinks many here in this forum think they know it all, can do it all (by themselves), go eat some humble pie - you can tell those guys by flying thru ash clouds w/o reliable data, but high spirits and overconfidence will make another threat. It ain't very professional, though.
Now, go ahead and beat me!
(edited for typos - you find any, keep 'em!)
Last edited by heavy.airbourne; 19th Jul 2010 at 22:47.
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Errr... not so great a post im afraid
Happens every day in the UK although with all your experience you would know that....
FL330 by EXMOR, 200 @ OKTEM, 200 Abeam TNT, 120 25 Before POL.
All far from optimal....been discussed dozens of times on here
You been to Madrid? Took me 50 minutes to fly from Torejon to Barajas once 
I'll see your Philadelphia and raise you Le Bourget.....
Anyway that was fun back on topic......
Many pilots here seem to lack overall experience, otherwise they would stop complaining about a highly professional and highly efficient system: Going into PHL from the north, quite normal for European carriers, you will have to reach FL240 160NM out, 16.000 when 100NM. Look for that in Europe!
FL330 by EXMOR, 200 @ OKTEM, 200 Abeam TNT, 120 25 Before POL.
All far from optimal....been discussed dozens of times on here
highly professional and highly efficient system
I'll see your Philadelphia and raise you Le Bourget.....
Anyway that was fun back on topic......
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Spot on, G-SPOT lost (not so lost then after all)
Exactly my thoughts when I read it. Going into Mannheim (EDFM) from the East you´ll be dropped down by Czech ATC and then the famous DFS at roughly a 160nm out, coming from the Southeast its 220 or below for the last 140 trackmiles etcetc. Or via Switzerland, sometimes I wonder why we don´t have to fly through a tunnel, that would allow them to allocate lower levels....
Exactly my thoughts when I read it. Going into Mannheim (EDFM) from the East you´ll be dropped down by Czech ATC and then the famous DFS at roughly a 160nm out, coming from the Southeast its 220 or below for the last 140 trackmiles etcetc. Or via Switzerland, sometimes I wonder why we don´t have to fly through a tunnel, that would allow them to allocate lower levels....
Last edited by His dudeness; 20th Jul 2010 at 08:46.
While cheapo airlines avoid paying 60 Euros for a dispatched flightplan by relying on automated dispatch systems, you do not have a reason to complain: You just get what you asked for
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Military controllers
It's on the news now, the government just announced that military controllers will cover when there are not enough civilian controllers (for what I gather it'll just be in specific days, say if there are too many sick as this weekend). Be careful what some of you ask for (Reagan style) you just got served:
El Gobierno habilitará a controladores militares para suplir a los civiles · ELPAÍS.com
El Gobierno habilitará controladores militares para garantizar el tráfico aéreo | elmundo.es
By the way, the ministry thinks they'll be ready in just 24 hours (as soon as they make it into position). Be scared, be very scared. I do not know them all, but have dealt with some in the past (through their association, SODECTA), and know of their shortcomings.
I wish you luck.
El Gobierno habilitará a controladores militares para suplir a los civiles · ELPAÍS.com
El Gobierno habilitará controladores militares para garantizar el tráfico aéreo | elmundo.es
By the way, the ministry thinks they'll be ready in just 24 hours (as soon as they make it into position). Be scared, be very scared. I do not know them all, but have dealt with some in the past (through their association, SODECTA), and know of their shortcomings.
I wish you luck.
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I always just think its funny they're just dumping more pollution on their own country (longer APU times longer flights etc etc) and in making more work for themselves to allow Mr Iberia land before any low-cost guys or not saying anything when some aircraft slows down very early to try and make other low-cost guys have to do go-arounds.
If your angry and want to do a go-slow, fine fire away but at least do them properly eh?
If your angry and want to do a go-slow, fine fire away but at least do them properly eh?
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Thats some good news finally, a step in the right direction. Hopefully its the foundations to eventually sacking all of the current spanish controllers and starting again with new systems and new ideas.
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Thats some good news finally, a step in the right direction.
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Los controladores militares dicen que no están 'cualificados' para gestionar el tráfico civil | elmundo.es
The military controllers trying to pull up from this sh!t. Basically themselves claim they're not up to it. Funny thing is they've been trying really hard to get better training and licensing for years, and now is when the politicians remember them.
Some years back there was a delegation of SODECTA visiting the Maastricht aviation exhibition (now is done in Amsterdam). Their delegates could barely make themselves understood and I had to translate everything. They were trying to get support for their TRG (they were tired of trying back at home, the colonels and generals would not divert money towards that i.s.o. using it in their private cars... all top range merc's btw). It was just before the approval at Brussels of the ESSAR5, they thought maybe that was an opportunity for them to improve their situation. It seems politicians thought otherwise.
A.
The military controllers trying to pull up from this sh!t. Basically themselves claim they're not up to it. Funny thing is they've been trying really hard to get better training and licensing for years, and now is when the politicians remember them.
Some years back there was a delegation of SODECTA visiting the Maastricht aviation exhibition (now is done in Amsterdam). Their delegates could barely make themselves understood and I had to translate everything. They were trying to get support for their TRG (they were tired of trying back at home, the colonels and generals would not divert money towards that i.s.o. using it in their private cars... all top range merc's btw). It was just before the approval at Brussels of the ESSAR5, they thought maybe that was an opportunity for them to improve their situation. It seems politicians thought otherwise.
A.
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Approach procedures in Spain
Hola Calcagafo!
Thanks for the info. It seems that our system in the UK is slightly different. Since you mentioned that you use two runways at Barcelona, I can only compare it to the Heathrow operation, similar 27L&R. There are also 4 stacks, two to the north of the field for inbounds from the north and two to the south for inbounds from the south. There are 5 positions: Intermediate Director South & Support, Intermediate Director North & Support & Final Director. INT North is the master director and runs the show, deciding the sequence. INT south works inbounds from the south following the sequence of INT north. Both INT directors feed the traffic to Final Director for final sequencing. The TMA area controllers work all of the departures except on an easterly configuration where INT south works departures that are in direct conflict with inbound traffic. During low-medium traffic (rare at EGLL), only two positions are manned INT (North+ South+Support) and Final director. But most of the time Heathrow Approach has 4 controllers on frequency. On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mosty 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona. I just wonder… and I hope this helps too.
On a different note, Mr Blanco has clearly no idea of how air traffic works and how long it takes to train and validate controllers!! All I can say is keep a good look out if military controllers get to control civil traffic in Spain!
Thanks for the info. It seems that our system in the UK is slightly different. Since you mentioned that you use two runways at Barcelona, I can only compare it to the Heathrow operation, similar 27L&R. There are also 4 stacks, two to the north of the field for inbounds from the north and two to the south for inbounds from the south. There are 5 positions: Intermediate Director South & Support, Intermediate Director North & Support & Final Director. INT North is the master director and runs the show, deciding the sequence. INT south works inbounds from the south following the sequence of INT north. Both INT directors feed the traffic to Final Director for final sequencing. The TMA area controllers work all of the departures except on an easterly configuration where INT south works departures that are in direct conflict with inbound traffic. During low-medium traffic (rare at EGLL), only two positions are manned INT (North+ South+Support) and Final director. But most of the time Heathrow Approach has 4 controllers on frequency. On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mosty 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona. I just wonder… and I hope this helps too.
On a different note, Mr Blanco has clearly no idea of how air traffic works and how long it takes to train and validate controllers!! All I can say is keep a good look out if military controllers get to control civil traffic in Spain!
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Not so sure this is good news. Have a look at this article and lets hope those military controllers passed their ELPAC and have at least some experience with handling civilian traffic...
Bring in the military and fire anyone who isnt willing to do their job or is unable to do it.
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Britain is no different, we have a similar saying, "it's not what you know, but who you know" - There is a tendency by some individuals to always
see corruption and nepotism abroad while ignoring the unbeliable amount of corruption and nepotism at all levels here at home. Handshake, wink, wink.
see corruption and nepotism abroad while ignoring the unbeliable amount of corruption and nepotism at all levels here at home. Handshake, wink, wink.
Watched with interest as yet again a Spanish flight was vectored close in front of us on a slam dunk into PMI tonight. Unfortunately they ended up being too high and did a go-around anyways. It was 15 minutes later before they landed. All could have been avoided with normal traffic vectoring in a normal sequence (i.e. first come - first served).
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Approach procedures in Spain
Hi there Speedbird:
I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:
what we here call approach includes the whole TMA (14 controllers, six of them on frequency).
Still, the main difference I see (and it´s a big one at that) is that here, for every controller on frequency there is another one monitoring his work in an adjacent screen, and doing the coordinations with the sectors involved (talking on telephone lines or just screaming
).
That makes, 6 on frequency, 6 coordinators and two on a break; changing positions every hour or so.
I understand you don´t have that coordination position?, and every controller on frequency is on his/her own?
Thanks for your support.
I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:
what we here call approach includes the whole TMA (14 controllers, six of them on frequency).
Still, the main difference I see (and it´s a big one at that) is that here, for every controller on frequency there is another one monitoring his work in an adjacent screen, and doing the coordinations with the sectors involved (talking on telephone lines or just screaming
).That makes, 6 on frequency, 6 coordinators and two on a break; changing positions every hour or so.
I understand you don´t have that coordination position?, and every controller on frequency is on his/her own?
Thanks for your support.
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first come, first servd
Hi ,
just a "mea culpa" note:
I´ve been working in Barcelona approach for less than 2 years, but I have to agree with you in this case;
I´ve seen a few controllers give priority to Spanish aircrafts over non spanish ones, I didn´t like it and told them so.
Most of the time is "the old guard" doing it.
I want to think that newcomers are a bit more aware of the service we should be providing and try to act accordingly.
Expect improvements in times to come
On a different subject:
If you guys think we speak bad english, wait until you hear the military....
Greetings from the (almost)south
just a "mea culpa" note:
I´ve been working in Barcelona approach for less than 2 years, but I have to agree with you in this case;
I´ve seen a few controllers give priority to Spanish aircrafts over non spanish ones, I didn´t like it and told them so.
Most of the time is "the old guard" doing it.
I want to think that newcomers are a bit more aware of the service we should be providing and try to act accordingly.
Expect improvements in times to come
On a different subject:
If you guys think we speak bad english, wait until you hear the military....
Greetings from the (almost)south
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Hi there Speedbird:
I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:
I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:
The differance in procedures and standards between the UK and Spain is extreme, and to be honest claiming that there is not much differance is a bit of an insult to the UK controllers....it would be like comparing professional footballers to your local amature pub team.
Speedbird - youre doing yourself an injustice comparing yourself and your highly professional colleagues to these imbeciles.
Why no EAT's in Spanish Holds?
Hi Spanish ATCO's. Why won't you give us EAT's when we're instructed to hold? We require this information in order to comply with our fuel policy which states we can only burn into our Alternate fuel (and therefore commit to Destination) if our EAT is known. Vague replies such as "about twice around the EPINA/BUDOM holding pattern" aren't good enough....you DO have a plan, don't you 
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Why no EAT's in Spanish Holds?
I can only speak for myself, but I do give EAT to each and every aircraft that has to hold over SLL,CLE, LESBA or VIBIM. (BCN TMA).
Mcnulty:
thanks for your opinion, we´ll try to improve (from imbeciles to plain idiots should be the first step
)
Mcnulty:
thanks for your opinion, we´ll try to improve (from imbeciles to plain idiots should be the first step
)