Spanish ATC
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The idea that current Spanish "work to rule" is a minor inconvenience is, franky, utter nonsense. The amount of wasted fuel, airframe hours, additional maintenance and delays to schedules is costing the airline industry dearly at a time when margins are already very tightly squeezed. Yesterday, I had to listen to a painful converstaion between a Ryanair crew and a Barcelona sector ATCO. The aircraft was held down to FL260 "because that was what the flight plan said". The crew were very keen to establish a more economical and faster Flight Level, and a short-cut or two because they were already running hours late. The controller said they would have to follow "flight plan route" and stay at FL260. The exasperated captain (the sector was very obviously quiet) asked why, and received a convoluted (and untrue) explanation about European regulations mandating aircraft to stay on planned route and FL at all times! The ATCO stated -"is same all over the Europe"!!!
Of course, the moment you cross the Pyrenees, the French give you a short-cut and do their best to get you an optimum Flight Level. As for the childish, irresponsible and counter-productive behaviour of the Palma ATCOs when it comes to slots and releases - don't even get me started!
I have no doubt that the Spanish Controllers have legitimate grievances, as do most people in most workplaces from time to time. Nonetheless, they are well paid and in a secure job in a country with soaring unemployment and a desperate economic situation. The very last people they need to be taking their problems out on is their customers - the airlines and the passengers who are inconvenienced by their actions. It is those customers who really pay their wages, not the Spanish government or any future private employer.
Get real guys - the reason everyone seems to be against you is that you are behaving naively in believing that you are harming only some high official or your employer. The real damage is to your already poor reputation as reliable professionals.
Of course, the moment you cross the Pyrenees, the French give you a short-cut and do their best to get you an optimum Flight Level. As for the childish, irresponsible and counter-productive behaviour of the Palma ATCOs when it comes to slots and releases - don't even get me started!
I have no doubt that the Spanish Controllers have legitimate grievances, as do most people in most workplaces from time to time. Nonetheless, they are well paid and in a secure job in a country with soaring unemployment and a desperate economic situation. The very last people they need to be taking their problems out on is their customers - the airlines and the passengers who are inconvenienced by their actions. It is those customers who really pay their wages, not the Spanish government or any future private employer.
Get real guys - the reason everyone seems to be against you is that you are behaving naively in believing that you are harming only some high official or your employer. The real damage is to your already poor reputation as reliable professionals.
Last edited by retrosgone; 6th Aug 2010 at 14:46.
Hmmm, and why did the Ryanair planned themselves on FL260? The only idea that comes to mind is to avoid a slot.
And if you were running an Airline you would have all your aircraft sat on the ground waiting until the optimum Flight Level became available, and screw the schedule.
I was stuck at FL340 today no good reason, just the Spanish playing their games and 4000ft below optimum.
I was stuck at FL340 today no good reason, just the Spanish playing their games and 4000ft below optimum.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Maastricht
Age: 39
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The controller said they would have to follow "flight plan route" and stay at FL260. The exasperated captain (the sector was very obviously quiet) asked why, and received a convoluted (and untrue) explanation about European regulations mandating aircraft to stay on planned route and FL at all times! The ATCO stated -"is same all over the Europe"!!!
If you read some of the following, it looks like a rather scary prospect, but I think the eventual goal is to combine it with a 'free routes'kind of airspace...
EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM Adherence
In any case, what I have read and heard from colleagues is that the official rules in Spain already include all of the above and that controllers can actually get punished for giving directs or non-filed flight levels.
I believe it is absolutely not bad will on their side, just the will to do what they have to do and for the rest stay out of trouble.
Also, be aware that somewhere in September there's supposed to be 2 days where the whole of Europe works along these guidelines as a sort of trial for the future.
www.adherencedays.com
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Spain
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airbrake wrote:
"I was stuck at FL340 today no good reason, just the Spanish playing their games and 4000ft below optimum."
"I was stuck at FL340 today no good reason, just the Spanish playing their games and 4000ft below optimum."
You probably filed FL340 in your FP, and thatīs what you were given. In Madrid FIR, some sectors are divided vertically: FL345- is one sector (Toledo?), FL345+ is another sector (Villatobas?), which in this case could be regulated due to sector capacity overload. Summer is high season in Spain.
Of course, you are not supposed to know this.
Of course, you shouldnīt rant on something you absolutely ignore ...
samotnik wrote:
"Hmmm, and why did the Ryanair planned themselves on FL260? The only idea that comes to mind is to avoid a slot."
"Hmmm, and why did the Ryanair planned themselves on FL260? The only idea that comes to mind is to avoid a slot."
I have seen (and controlled) flights from Ryanair, departing airports in the south of Spain, with destination in northen Europe, and a requested cruise level of FL280 or FL300 for all their route, and after APP transfers control, the first thing they do is request FL360 or FL380.
This is simply cheating your fellow colleagues from other companies. PERIOD!
Why is it that this issue doesnīt get proper treatment from those same colleagues that are being cheated?
In my sector, if you file that you want to go to Oslo or to Warsaw at FL280, thatīs what you get. Iīll give FL360 or FL380 to your colleagues from Air Berlin, or from Monarch, or from Easyjet because they honestly requested it.
Saludos!
Last edited by p_perez; 6th Aug 2010 at 18:14. Reason: Typo
I have seen (and controlled) flights from Ryanair, departing airports in the south of Spain, with destination in northen Europe, and a requested cruise level of FL280 or FL300 for all their route, and after APP transfers control, the first thing they do is request FL360 or FL380.
This is simply cheating your fellow colleagues from other companies. PERIOD!
Why is it that this issue doesnīt get proper treatment from those same colleagues that are being cheated?
In my sector, if you file that you want to go to Oslo or to Warsaw at FL280, thatīs what you get. Iīll give FL360 or FL380 to your colleagues from Air Berlin, or from Monarch, or from Easyjet because they honestly requested it.
This is simply cheating your fellow colleagues from other companies. PERIOD!
Why is it that this issue doesnīt get proper treatment from those same colleagues that are being cheated?
In my sector, if you file that you want to go to Oslo or to Warsaw at FL280, thatīs what you get. Iīll give FL360 or FL380 to your colleagues from Air Berlin, or from Monarch, or from Easyjet because they honestly requested it.
Nobody is trying to "cheat" anyone here but if I am capable of a higher (and more optimum level) there I will continue to ask for it. There are many reasons why this may be so but you are not a pilot so would not appreciate them. I full understand that higher levels may not be available. But what we see now in Spain, on a consistent basis, is higher levels being refused for no apparent reason whereas previously they have been granted. So maybe it's the Spanish ATC who are cheating all the airlines of operating more economically?
Also how do you explain when I am filed at FL380 that you tell me it is not available and I have to accept FL360 as happened recently? Please don't give me this BS about regulation/flow. I know that when I talk to almost every other ATC in Europe that they will attempt to accomodate a different level to that which is filed.
if I am capable of a higher (and more optimum level) there I will continue to ask for it. There are many reasons why this may be so but you are not a pilot so would not appreciate them.
Well if you want to be patronising, there are many different reasons why your optimum level can't be given but as you're not a controller you would not appreciate them.
Well if you want to be patronising, there are many different reasons why your optimum level can't be given but as you're not a controller you would not appreciate them.
My remark was not meant to be patronising but a statement of fact. There are reasons why we may make a request for a level other than flight plan. I referred to this, as did others, on another Prrune thread about this topic some time ago. I
Anybody here ever heard of an Iberia or Spanair stuck in the 20s/low 30s?
No? Thought not.
We are all aware that there are times when levels are blocked and you have to accept it. However, lets not think for one minute that this is a level playing field in Spain. Pilots know it and the controllers know. Lets not pretend otherwise.
No? Thought not.
We are all aware that there are times when levels are blocked and you have to accept it. However, lets not think for one minute that this is a level playing field in Spain. Pilots know it and the controllers know. Lets not pretend otherwise.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Poland
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nobody is trying to "cheat" anyone here but if I am capable of a higher (and more optimum level) there I will continue to ask for it.
In such case there is no other explanation than cheating the flow system.
Personally, I don't see this as "cheating" merely a flexible response to the current system.
It's a shame that this thread has become, in part, a bit of a slanging match between pilots and ATC. As a pilot I have the greatest respect for our friends in Air Traffic Control and I do feel for the Spanish ATC whose terms and conditions are changing. I started flying professionally in 1971 when there seemed to be much more mutual respect between the two parties. I think we need to remember that we are able to operate safely through teamwork and cooperation. It is shame that since 9/11 we hardly ever seem to see controllers observing on the jump seat - I can assure you that, if it was permitted, you would be more than welcome on the flight deck.
Last edited by fireflybob; 6th Aug 2010 at 20:39.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's amazing that you cite FR as cheating the system (I agree by the way) they always do but they get away with it and it is unfair competition, my gripe however in Spanish airspace is that you talk in Spanish to local operators which I feel is unsafe and I know as I have a little Spanish that there is many a shortcut to be had if you speak the vernacular. Get real guys the industry needs this like a hole in the head between you and the French you will destroy it! If you do succeed I think as part of the deal it is time to force all ATCOs to speak English to all operators!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Germany
Age: 46
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about clearly stating on the frequency that you will get punished by AENA if you give a shortcut or higher than filed flightlevel when asked for it? If this was the true reason, itīs what Iīd be doing. You canīt be punished for speaking the truth.
I canīt understand your strict adherence to the CTOT either. In Germany we take full advantage of the 15-minute timeframe and on some routings, especially to Spain, we can (and do) give shortcuts that amount to about 40 miles.
Some of our sectors are also heavily regulated, but still we give direct routings through those sectors if traffic permits.
Air traffic is too complex and dynamic to try directing it without flexibility.
About the video I saw on youtube: itīs absolutely astonishing that anyone put it to the internet at all. It shows such an unprofessional behaviour that I donīt find any words for it. The people involved should rather be ashamed than putting it online. There are certainly other ways to express your anger towards your employer.
I can hardly believe that AENA would punish you for giving directs and higher levels but let people get away with the show on youtube.
I canīt understand your strict adherence to the CTOT either. In Germany we take full advantage of the 15-minute timeframe and on some routings, especially to Spain, we can (and do) give shortcuts that amount to about 40 miles.
Some of our sectors are also heavily regulated, but still we give direct routings through those sectors if traffic permits.
Air traffic is too complex and dynamic to try directing it without flexibility.
About the video I saw on youtube: itīs absolutely astonishing that anyone put it to the internet at all. It shows such an unprofessional behaviour that I donīt find any words for it. The people involved should rather be ashamed than putting it online. There are certainly other ways to express your anger towards your employer.
I can hardly believe that AENA would punish you for giving directs and higher levels but let people get away with the show on youtube.
Why should you explain anything on the r/t (which creates r/t overload by the way) when you are applying the rules?
What next? Giving reasons for just doing your job?
"ABC123, to avoid making a loud bang with a crossing heavy descend FL310. The reason I have chosen for you to descend is not because I find your company a real pain in the @rse but because you are much closer to your TOD than the conflicting traffic is. I'm terribly sorry about the extra fuel burn this will cause you".
What next? Giving reasons for just doing your job?
"ABC123, to avoid making a loud bang with a crossing heavy descend FL310. The reason I have chosen for you to descend is not because I find your company a real pain in the @rse but because you are much closer to your TOD than the conflicting traffic is. I'm terribly sorry about the extra fuel burn this will cause you".
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Poland
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally, I don't see this as "cheating" merely a flexible response to the current system.
The problem with requesting higher levels during flight is that ATCo on duty doesn't have such a big picture. If he gives you different level than flight planned, it's because a) he doesn't care, b) he believes you that the level you are requesting is the flight plan one, because he doesn't have time to check it, c) he doesn't have time to argue with you about this, d) he tries desperately to help you, thus putting his colleagues a dozen sectors away into trouble. There is no other option. Nobody ever has time to check your slot and its regulation and phone CFMU to check if it's still in force. At least not now, when airlines are forcing ANSP to save every single penny.
Requesting a different level than FPlanned is not cheating, it is about optimum fuel usage etc. OK. But planning yourself on some ridicolous, disasterous to fuel economy level and later requesting the correct one IS cheating. But the worst thing you can do is posting later on to PPRuNe about stupid ATCos who didn't allow you to cheat.
samontik,
I've been flying in europe for 20 years and it is only the past 2 months that filed flight levels are the only ones you are 'allowed' to fly at!
Has something changed, apart from the Spanish dispute (that I am finding increasingly difficult to support).
I havent referred to they French dispute as they have them every year!!
I've been flying in europe for 20 years and it is only the past 2 months that filed flight levels are the only ones you are 'allowed' to fly at!
Has something changed, apart from the Spanish dispute (that I am finding increasingly difficult to support).
I havent referred to they French dispute as they have them every year!!
I've been flying in europe for 20 years and it is only the past 2 months that filed flight levels are the only ones you are 'allowed' to fly at!
Has something changed,
Has something changed,
Wrong. CFMU has a complete overview of all regulations and limitations in European airspace. If it assigns a slot - it's because there is a restriction. If the restriction is no longer valid - your slot gets updated or cancelled.
I fully understand that whilst enroute if I ask for a level other than flight plan it may not be available for a myriad of reasons. Is it illegal to ask for a different level? What about weather avoidance? What about turbulence? Surely any ATC should have a degree of flexibility. Only last week Swiss asked me if I could climb to a higher level for traffic reasons which we accepted but this was not the Flight Plan level - is that cheating?