Spanish ATC

[Tight Seat]

Calcagafo,

Sir you are coming across very well with your posts. A few more like you and we may well be in a better place whilst using Spanish airspace.
Keep up the good work.

[68+iou1]

Regarding EAT in BCN. I’ve had this discussion with an ATO over a few beers about six months ago. Apparently in the Spanish AIP they don’t have to give us a EAT if the hold is less than 20 min.
So I always carry 20 min extra fuel into BCN, frustrating? Yes!
Inefficient? Yes!
Spanish? Yes!

[Nightstop]

Interesting info that is 68+iou1 , but do you have a reference in the AIP for that?

[Data Dad]

68+iou1 wrote:

Regarding EAT in BCN. I’ve had this discussion with an ATO over a few beers about six months ago. Apparently in the Spanish AIP they don’t have to give us a EAT if the hold is less than 20 min.
So I always carry 20 min extra fuel into BCN, frustrating? Yes!
Inefficient? Yes!
Spanish? Yes!

Exactly the same in the UK - if the 'delay' is less than 20mins then EATs are not issued. See:

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...9_P_045_en.pdf

DD

[68+iou1]

Simple, it's 20 min extra to the UK as well.

Frustrating? Yes

Inefficient? Yes

Spanish? No

[demomonkey]

I have to say in defence of some of our Spanish cousins that ATC at BCN is significantly better than it has been in previous years and I think they are doing a very professional and safe job. If only you could install DATIS and PDC by ACARS I'd give you 5 stars!

If the BCN guys could also persuade your friends in MAD to drink the same Kool-Aid, I would feel alot less stress there too. One difference several colleagues have recognised is that in BCN the speed/tone of the ATCO is calm, confident and relaxed whereas in MAD (I'm thinking Ground/Apron frequencies in particular) it is often staccato / machine gun-like and panicked which leads to incorrect read-backs, repeats, uncertainties and mistakes.

As regarding home team favouritism, there will always be some of that. The local ATCO knows that the local pilot can safely accept a 'snatch' approach so that she/he can keep the landing rate optimised. What people don't like to see is being told to orbit 16nm out whilst the home team blatantly comes past you.

[JW411]

I do agree that BCN is a cut above the average but then, BCN is not really in Spain is it?

Long live Catalonia.

[LH2]

As I tried to get across, controllers in Spain are way overworked

They might well be, but that's hardly a new situation.

I've asked this before, but never got a reply:

How many hours was the average Spanish controller clocking say, back in 2008? How many nowadays?

The reason why I ask is because to my knowledge, at least a percentage of ATCOs have always been working far more hours and back-to-back shifts than would be considered safe and responsible, and that was by their own decision as until the recent changes they were in charge of setting their own schedules. Yet it appears that it's only when salaries are being cut that all of a sudden safety comes to mind.

I know in Spain those very reports (whatever they're called there) were not making it as far as they should

Confirmed. I was told by a knowledgeable AENA employee who I trust, not to bother filing any. This was on the occasion when my flight plan was closed after going on ALERFA--they decided, but never checked, that I must have landed on a (restricted, military) airport in France when in fact I had diverted back to LEGE and I was receiving a service from both BCN and LEGE.

As for the military controllers, I have had no interaction with the Spanish Air Force, but I confess I was impressed after my experience with their Navy. From what I've been told by someone from another, well respected European Navy, the Spanish military got a lot more capable in recent times, after joining NATO (yes, I know this was over 20 years ago, but armies don't change overnight).

In any event, their latest little circus is plainly immature and not exactly confidence-inspiring.

[foxcharliep2]

jw411 : BCN is not really in Spain is it?

Long live Catalonia.

Is that your best intellectual contribution to the thread - at least in MAD Barajas they know how to celebrate Spain & the champions .......
Long live the Spanish national team - which happens to have some great contributions from the Catalans as well - see, it works fine, no need to poison things ........

"Iberia 2801, el avión de los campeones"

[biffo28]

Proper english......

Couldn't make it up lol!

Whispering Giant -"Just wish some of there controller's could speak proper English. . . "

[samotnik]

The controller denied him start, and told him that he had to re-file (for another massive delay). The aircraft in question just couldn't believe it - and assured the controller he could be at the holding point in 8 minutes or so and that he would be reporting him.

HunderPercent, be aware that there is a number of pilots everyday, that are just lying in order to fool the ATC that they can make the slot while they know they can't. I'm an ATCo who does his best to get you airborne, sometimes even slightly outside your CTOT window. But yesterday a crew asked for startup precisely at CTOT (relatively small aerodrome, pushback+taxi time is 10min). I asked if they can make it. Yes, they do. OK, so startup approved, expedite due slot. Well, the aircraft was pushed back ten minutes later (so the slot window was just about to end), whereas it takes usually 2-3min. OK, I thought, maybe there was some unexpected problem, hell, gave them clearance to taxi. Wow, a slow grass-cutting tractor going the same direction had overtaken them with twice their speed! No mention that there were several aircraft taxiing behind. No apparent reaction to expedite request, so finally they arrived at the holding point 12min after CTOT window. And yes, I did clear them for takeoff, because I think that aircraft with engines running should get airborne. But I broke all the rules this way. I don't like this, because my duty is to obey them, that's what I get paid for. So it's you (or some of you) who ruin the trust. For the next few shifts I will be very suspicious of crews declaring that they 'can make it'. And maybe next time I will return somebody to the gate.

BTW, there are (huge and well-known) airlines, that apparently don't experience this problems while operating in the very same environment. They always make the slot and if not, they don't discuss and get themselves a delay to EOBT and accept the new slot. German precision?

[Microburst2002]

to 411W

So far, spanish ATC is spanish and covers the entire spanish territory, including that wonderful land to the north east, Catalonia.

There are not many more catalonian ATCOs in BCN than in other airports.
So far.
By the way, where are you from, sir? the "united" kingdom, perhaps?

To the spanish ATC haters:

It is true that many ATCs are better than spanish. But the difference is not so so big. The only air miss i have had was near london, and due to incorrect ATC procedures according to the reports. In germany, several go arounds, one of them after 15 min being told "high speed, number one" but in the end we were only the number one second traffic. Most of the ATC inconveniences I have had occurred outside spain.
In many places around Europe and beyod I have been holding without knowing my EAT. Come on, are you kidding me guys? This only happens in Spain?

To the other union busters and neoliberals, neofascists, etc...

Why not just make an overhaul to democracy. We could elimiate all rights, first, and then grant them one by one, little by little to those who are more obedient. Not for the trouble makers who dare to earn money without having capital in the first place!
The armed forces and a tough police would be very useful for that. They could take over most of the funcions, including justice and press.

To all the europeans north of the Pirenee

given the actual economic situation. Please go to the streets and demand your goverments to expell Spain from the UE, the Euro and everything.
Please, please, do it. I beg you!
We don't deserve to be in the same political structure as you, my dear europeans.

See you in the beaches of Spain!

[DjerbaDevil]

Quoting speedbird462:

On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mosty 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona.

The above would seem to question the stress and strain the new duties, that Spanish ATC say are adversely affecting their health and making them go on sick leave. According to the Spanish press the number of working days of sick leave that has been taken monthly since January 2010 are a follows:
January 2010: 1,211 days of sick leave
February 2010: 1,268 days of sick leave
(New law on ATCs' T&Cs signed in Parliament)
March 2010: 2,295 days of sick leave
April 2010: 2,778 days of sick leave
May 2010: 3,458 days of sick leave
June 2010: 4,315 days of sick leave
July 2010: 3,159 days of sick leave *(up to 18 July 2010)
Projection to 31 July = 5,760 days sick leave

August 2010 - should be quite interesting.....

There are 2,300 ATCs in Spain and 4,000 in France...........How many are there in the United Kingdom? Does anyone have the answer?

In 2009 the average number of hours worked by the Spanish ATC was 1,750 (some did more and some less obviously) and about 550 hours of those 1,750 were being put in as overtime hours, as it was the ATCs who controlled and set the duty hours. The new law has increased their minimum duty hours of 1,200 per year to the average they worked in 2009 of 1,750 hours. They are not working any more or less hours than they did in 2009 but with the difference that the 550 hours overtime (average) they worked last year at nearly three times the normal working hourly rate, is included in their normal yearly salary of about 200,000 Euros.

It seems it was less stressful and painful for the Spanish ATCs to do the extra 550 hours in 2009, when these hours were being paid at a premium rate.... and their yearly average salaries were over 300,000 Euros. Some Spanish ATCs took as much as 900,000 Euros home in 2009........

All the above is according to the Spanish press, which is unanimous in its basic information and quoting official sources.......

[Right Way Up]

So over to Spanish ATCOs,

Could you enlighten us with your monthly duty hours & take home pay?

[calcagafo]

Spanish ATCOS

I can only tell you about myself (in Barcelona ACC)

It varies a lot, but it´s between 4500 and 6000 euro for 160 to 200 hours a month (24 to 28 days a month)....
Far from the data the government is giving to the media.

Most of us think they are plotting against us as an excuse to privatize?? the ATC bussiness

We´ll see...

[Artie Fufkin]

Re Spanish Military controllers...

Am I right in thinking that MJV is a military airfield, with military ATC? Heaven help us if they are let loose anywhere else. Without doubt the worst ATC in Spain.

And as for BCN; we had to organise our own speed / seperation on final today with the aircraft in front. We were instructed to maintain 180kts, with the aircraft 2 miles in front (!) doing 120kts. Hardly the cream.

If the working hours / conditions for Spanish ATC are as bad as has been reported then I do have sympathy. However, after years of witnessing Spain's below par ATC service, it is obvious a radical solution is long overdue.

[plain-plane]

MJV, not that bad... try ZAZ...

[lederhosen]

Actual exchange in Palma with delivery recently went as follows after around two hour slot delay.

Yes I know it is minus five plus ten minutes. But that is only if we (delivery) feel like it and we do not. There is no one at the holding point so taxi time plus push back is fifteen minutes. Call me exactly fifteen minutes before your slot.

This kind of behaviour is why pilots are less than sympathetic to Spanish controllers.

[kick the tires]

Lederhosen is right. I offer no support or sympathy to ATC; they just dont realise that we are NOT the enemy.

Such childish actions he describes do nothing but create ill feelings and anger. It really is petty and childish.

I will smile when they are defeated!

[Surferboy]

@ kick the tires: And would that be ATC in general? If so, maybe you should start realizing that ATC also isn't the enemy here. I can't speak for the Spanish cases, but there is almost always a viable reason for any decision from ATC-side you don't like.

The Spanish ATCo is following the rules his company sets, the guideline is to let flights depart as close to there CTOT as possible to get the best effect 'Flow-wise'. The -5 and +10 are purely to give them a bit of room for sequence purposes.

Same applies to your side, lots of pilots reducing to 250kts below FL100 even if i tell them to keep a certain speed. (In class A airspace this is) Most of the times they won't even inform me, wich can be quite a pain in the bottom if you are sequencing tight.

I understand that you (pilots in general) have to follow SOP's, but so do controllers. And yes there are a lot of pilots who do keep the speed up untill advised even if their SOPs state otherwise. But there are also a lot of controllers who will go out of their way to get you airborne at CTOT -5. But this is not anything that can be expected, or demanded.