Spanish ATC
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If all pilots on a frequency could understand all communications?
Do you think safety would be:
* No different
* No different
it appears that the preservation of their language is a higher priority than flight safety.
It is more an issue about the quality of an ATCO (or system) than the languages used. As ATC Watcher has pointed out correctly, no dual language or non-English transmission has directly lead to an accident. With every accident there are always lots of ifs and it is easy to blame it on a foreign language that one doesn't understand. Let's not start talking about UHF traffic that we cannot hear, that fact usually gets quietly ignored.
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100% Please: Politics and Flight safety do not mix well . I grant you that one without a wink.
But the problems with Spanish and French ATC are not language-based.
Regarding your question : if all pilots on a frequency could understand all communications : would that improve or make no difference. The obvious fast answer would be “improve of course “ . But can you scientifically (as opposed to emotionally ) prove it ?
That is much more difficult, and we tried but , especially for en route ATC ( as an IFR environment ) you will find that evidence does not support clear safety benefits there. In a VFR/VMC and ground movement International airports , there are clearer benefits. Now the politicians argue Nationalistic claims, and some pilots Unions argue that safety is enhanced when pilots and controller speak in their native tongue (e.g. . eliminations of ambiguities ) That stand was perhaps valid in the past until about a year ago . Now the argument is gone since we are all supposed to be English level 4.
I personally think that Spain and France will introduce soon English only in International airports and en route ATC. Not really to improve safety , as the authorities will argue it was never compromised because of it, but to allow mobility of ATC staff around Europe.
We’ll get the safety benefits for the wrong reasons, as always.
Now it is time for a Cognac . Cheers
But the problems with Spanish and French ATC are not language-based.
Regarding your question : if all pilots on a frequency could understand all communications : would that improve or make no difference. The obvious fast answer would be “improve of course “ . But can you scientifically (as opposed to emotionally ) prove it ?
That is much more difficult, and we tried but , especially for en route ATC ( as an IFR environment ) you will find that evidence does not support clear safety benefits there. In a VFR/VMC and ground movement International airports , there are clearer benefits. Now the politicians argue Nationalistic claims, and some pilots Unions argue that safety is enhanced when pilots and controller speak in their native tongue (e.g. . eliminations of ambiguities ) That stand was perhaps valid in the past until about a year ago . Now the argument is gone since we are all supposed to be English level 4.
I personally think that Spain and France will introduce soon English only in International airports and en route ATC. Not really to improve safety , as the authorities will argue it was never compromised because of it, but to allow mobility of ATC staff around Europe.
We’ll get the safety benefits for the wrong reasons, as always.
Now it is time for a Cognac . Cheers
ATC Watcher - I hope so. And, enjoy! 
Squawk777, I think you missed the point. To say that speaking in two different languages is just as safe as one because you know some of the world's most gash pilots is not a convincing argument.
The "local a/c getting priority" issue was not in question - understanding what on earth is going on is. I speak good French, but in Spain I might as well have a SELCAL.
Squawk777, I think you missed the point. To say that speaking in two different languages is just as safe as one because you know some of the world's most gash pilots is not a convincing argument.
The "local a/c getting priority" issue was not in question - understanding what on earth is going on is. I speak good French, but in Spain I might as well have a SELCAL.
Iberia Primadonnas
Back to the topic:
Impressed yesterday afternoon with the patience shown by the MAD 36R TWR controller when verbally abused by a succession of Iberia Primadonnas & an Air Europa at the holding point. One even made an insulting remark in Spanish that "the foreigners should go to the back of the queue". Pity though that the controller was eventually bullied into doing just that, explaining somewhat unconvincingly that the Iberia's and Air Europa had CTOT's to meet
Impressed yesterday afternoon with the patience shown by the MAD 36R TWR controller when verbally abused by a succession of Iberia Primadonnas & an Air Europa at the holding point. One even made an insulting remark in Spanish that "the foreigners should go to the back of the queue". Pity though that the controller was eventually bullied into doing just that, explaining somewhat unconvincingly that the Iberia's and Air Europa had CTOT's to meet
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Barriers
I followed this thread with interest as I have operated in Spain for both UK and Spanish airlines. I happen to believe the ATC in Spain is not as bad as this thread makes out, but I do pay extra attention to TCAS targets and the airspace around me as I believe we all should. However my main point is that the "them and us" mentality is growing and someone or some organisation or union should get pilots and controllers together for on the job appreciation of what each other does. I have always been surprised how little understanding and actual experience the two branches of aviation have of one another. With the bitching and moaning expressed in these posts I strongly suggest the time is right for if not a "love in" some kind of formal joint experience activity.
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Ispra : absolutely ! IFALPA and IFATCA should perhaps take the lead on this.
9/11 killed the ATC familiarisation flights, now 10 years later it is time to re-open the subject.
Joint activities should be initiated . The joint simulators sessions for emergency training ( like those by Lufhansa- DFS in Frankfurt) or joint 2-3 days CRM-TRM training sessions ( like IranAir-Iran ATC does), or social events : ( get together evenings ) are the way to go.
9/11 killed the ATC familiarisation flights, now 10 years later it is time to re-open the subject.
Joint activities should be initiated . The joint simulators sessions for emergency training ( like those by Lufhansa- DFS in Frankfurt) or joint 2-3 days CRM-TRM training sessions ( like IranAir-Iran ATC does), or social events : ( get together evenings ) are the way to go.
ATC Watcher, basic one-day fam-flights are still possible with some companies. The problem stems from lack of financial support and lack of time for the controllers (who have to use their valuable OFF days for this). What has had more impact since 911 is that when flying as regular pax it is (with some small exceptions) no longer possible for ATCOs to simply identify themselves and make the ride up front as so often used to be the case. I remember the days when I used to make around 60-80 flights per year and probably spent 90% of the time at the pointy end.
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Even that depends, over here in germany it is still possible for a local (german employed) ATCO to identify himself and ride up front. Well, except for flights into the UK and USA.
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What ever problems the ATC are having there cause is not being help in the eyes of the travelling spanish public with incidents as I was a party too yesterday in MAD. Delayed flights one can live with there a way of life nowadays, But Seven published gate changes over the 6 hour delay must be close to a record.
The sight of 100 plus paying passengers some with small kids moving like sheep from one end of Terminal 2 to the other only to have there hopes dashed normally well after the ETD with a further new gate location, It had to be seen to be believed, Take my hat off to the Captain though came out to the gate finally on arrival and faced the crowd,
My personal observation on yesterday Never have so many un necessary runway changes been initiated by so few to get there point of view across. 
The sight of 100 plus paying passengers some with small kids moving like sheep from one end of Terminal 2 to the other only to have there hopes dashed normally well after the ETD with a further new gate location, It had to be seen to be believed, Take my hat off to the Captain though came out to the gate finally on arrival and faced the crowd,
My personal observation on yesterday Never have so many un necessary runway changes been initiated by so few to get there point of view across.
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Squawk777, I think you missed the point. To say that speaking in two different languages is just as safe as one because you know some of the world's most gash pilots is not a convincing argument.
Another fact that I have brought up and no one really seemed to put any attention to is the use of UHF transmission to our military colleagues. It seems to me that the "dangerous dual-language" ATC argument is just directed at a certain country/culture to satisfy someone's needs.
And it's 7 7 7 7, please
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What ever problems the ATC are having there cause is not being help in the eyes of the travelling spanish public with incidents as I was a party too yesterday in MAD. Delayed flights one can live with there a way of life nowadays, But Seven published gate changes over the 6 hour delay must be close to a record
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So the JAL crew coming into Paris/Madrid after a 12 hour flight have the same level of situational awareness as if they were flying into London/Amsterdam?
Wake up and smell the roses!
It is a safety issue!
Wake up and smell the roses!
It is a safety issue!
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Is there not a fairly simple logistical issue here? Surely it's easier for ATCOs and pilots to learn 1 additional language for consistency of communication than it would be for all pilots to learn all languages for the destinations into which they might fly? I don't care whether it's Mandarin, Esperanto or Klingon but I'd like to think that those who work in the industry could take the shortest route to maximising safe instruction and advice.
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UHF, CPDLC, etc...
UHF for the militaries;
CPDLC (yes, we need a readback, but when freq. is busy sometimes we get it after they start turning or descending);
and let's not forget my favourite: when there are aircraft released in one airspace to the adjacent airspace's controller. (For the thick ones out there, that means controller from sector A talking to an aircraft in sector B, therefore the only ones aware of what's going on are the controllers).
I am not shutting down the whole "using one language" based on these above, but seriously, awareness nowadays is overrated (read above, it happens more often than you think and you don't even know).
I understand that using two languages, in some situations, can be pretty bad (runway, ground movement in busy airports, small/busy APP/area sectors, etc..). But IMHO that is when there is already a bad judgment call. Bad calls can happen in any language.
Once a pilot told me off for giving a freq. change to another aircraft in another language...the aircraft was 100 NM away and increasing quickly. Now, if that would have been a vital instruction, it would have been said in english and, when applicable, TFC INFO would have issued to really put the awareness in there.
A bit of trust for some of us, please, we're not all dumb. And also, yes, sometimes you just don't need to know it all. If you would, we'd call you about it.
CPDLC (yes, we need a readback, but when freq. is busy sometimes we get it after they start turning or descending);
and let's not forget my favourite: when there are aircraft released in one airspace to the adjacent airspace's controller. (For the thick ones out there, that means controller from sector A talking to an aircraft in sector B, therefore the only ones aware of what's going on are the controllers).
I am not shutting down the whole "using one language" based on these above, but seriously, awareness nowadays is overrated (read above, it happens more often than you think and you don't even know).
I understand that using two languages, in some situations, can be pretty bad (runway, ground movement in busy airports, small/busy APP/area sectors, etc..). But IMHO that is when there is already a bad judgment call. Bad calls can happen in any language.
Once a pilot told me off for giving a freq. change to another aircraft in another language...the aircraft was 100 NM away and increasing quickly. Now, if that would have been a vital instruction, it would have been said in english and, when applicable, TFC INFO would have issued to really put the awareness in there.
A bit of trust for some of us, please, we're not all dumb. And also, yes, sometimes you just don't need to know it all. If you would, we'd call you about it.
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Andrijander wrote:
Oh dear. Who goes first?
A bit of trust for some of us, please, we're not all dumb. And also, yes, sometimes you just don't need to know it all. If you would, we'd call you about it.
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Spanish Pride
Really impressed by Spanish ATC today... Outbound a slot of 1 hr 10, then a slot of 2 hrs 30 on the return. So the end result is our next two sectors are cancelled and 300 people who are in the Adriatic (no where near spain) have their holidays wrecked.
Congratulations.. You may be facing a pay cut, but you are killing us and our customers. We will lose our jobs and those associated with our industry.
I have listened to Spanair's, Airberlin's and Easy's all getting frustrated by your inability to provide the service we pay for, well done! You are achieving nothing but you are threatening our jobs, our passengers and your jobs in the long term!
Get back to doing your job as well as we do ours, be Proud to be Spanish, be Excellent!
Then respect will be restored!
Congratulations.. You may be facing a pay cut, but you are killing us and our customers. We will lose our jobs and those associated with our industry.
I have listened to Spanair's, Airberlin's and Easy's all getting frustrated by your inability to provide the service we pay for, well done! You are achieving nothing but you are threatening our jobs, our passengers and your jobs in the long term!
Get back to doing your job as well as we do ours, be Proud to be Spanish, be Excellent!
Then respect will be restored!
Ut Sementem Feeceris
They'll be putting themselves out of a job soon. If you have to follow "standard routing" including the entire SID/STAR as we did today....... why do you need controllers? The whole thing could be controlled by a computer.
Have to admit it's now becoming a royal pain in the ar$e to fly through France / Spain. Last night back from Germany....... direct DENUT - close to 250nm. The reason of "sector overload" is BS. They've managed for the last 10 years and we now have considerably LESS traffic than a couple of years ago. I think the airlines should get together and ask our new super coalition to ask the French and Spanish governments what the hell's is going on. They could even play the green card.
A4
Have to admit it's now becoming a royal pain in the ar$e to fly through France / Spain. Last night back from Germany....... direct DENUT - close to 250nm. The reason of "sector overload" is BS. They've managed for the last 10 years and we now have considerably LESS traffic than a couple of years ago. I think the airlines should get together and ask our new super coalition to ask the French and Spanish governments what the hell's is going on. They could even play the green card.
A4
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For those who do not know me: I am a Spanish controller, but do not work in Spain.
2 things; just to keep them into consideration.
Directs at night are many times more feasible than during the day. Everywhere (coming from someone who, if allowed, can/will give you directs of over 300NM everytime). Less TFC and no military areas are normally the rule at those times, therefore the availability (both factors outside our control).
Where I work, our busiest day we managed aprox. 5100 flights in 1 day. This month, we are consistently managing between 4500 and 4900 flts/day. Not too far off our busiest (the 5000 was pre-crisis, so we could say we're back where we left it...or almost).
I do not know how good or bad was ATC in Spain (or France for that matter, since it seems they get the stick treatment often around here too), say, last year compared to now. I would think it has gotten worse for what I can read here in pprune. I also happen to read other pages, closer to the Spanish aviation sector, and they go along the same line (funnily enough the ones complaining there about the service "hitting the fan" are the very same controllers you are ranting about).
But I do know that if you ask the spanish government you're not gonna get the truth. Since you're pilots, how about you ask the Spanish pilot association (COPAC)? Maybe you'll be thrilled to know they just announced the creation of a technical committee including controllers and pilots (since the regulatory bodies which have to take technical decisions on operational areas seem to, consistently, forget to involve the operational players when taking those decisions). I think you'd get a better insight on what's going on. If you really care that is; if this is just a stress reliever: just disregard all after my introduction.
BTW, FPL adherence is coming, wether we like it or not. I must say where I work we don't like the idea (if there's space and you fit get in, we say). Unfortunately neighbouring centers do not think in the same way and these days we're getting a lot of...let's call it "peer pressure". Most of the time you guys up there don't know (maybe except after reaching your RFL, when it differs from FPL, and you're asked to go back down to FPL...or you're not allowed up altogether). But we can only take so much and for that long. I know first hand that, as soon as feasible, things will change in central europe too.
But then again at the end of the day, ATC is just the tip of the iceberg of ground support. There's lots happening beneath the surface. If you care to look, you'll see.
A.
2 things; just to keep them into consideration.
Directs at night are many times more feasible than during the day. Everywhere (coming from someone who, if allowed, can/will give you directs of over 300NM everytime). Less TFC and no military areas are normally the rule at those times, therefore the availability (both factors outside our control).
Where I work, our busiest day we managed aprox. 5100 flights in 1 day. This month, we are consistently managing between 4500 and 4900 flts/day. Not too far off our busiest (the 5000 was pre-crisis, so we could say we're back where we left it...or almost).
I do not know how good or bad was ATC in Spain (or France for that matter, since it seems they get the stick treatment often around here too), say, last year compared to now. I would think it has gotten worse for what I can read here in pprune. I also happen to read other pages, closer to the Spanish aviation sector, and they go along the same line (funnily enough the ones complaining there about the service "hitting the fan" are the very same controllers you are ranting about).
But I do know that if you ask the spanish government you're not gonna get the truth. Since you're pilots, how about you ask the Spanish pilot association (COPAC)? Maybe you'll be thrilled to know they just announced the creation of a technical committee including controllers and pilots (since the regulatory bodies which have to take technical decisions on operational areas seem to, consistently, forget to involve the operational players when taking those decisions). I think you'd get a better insight on what's going on. If you really care that is; if this is just a stress reliever: just disregard all after my introduction.
BTW, FPL adherence is coming, wether we like it or not. I must say where I work we don't like the idea (if there's space and you fit get in, we say). Unfortunately neighbouring centers do not think in the same way and these days we're getting a lot of...let's call it "peer pressure". Most of the time you guys up there don't know (maybe except after reaching your RFL, when it differs from FPL, and you're asked to go back down to FPL...or you're not allowed up altogether). But we can only take so much and for that long. I know first hand that, as soon as feasible, things will change in central europe too.
But then again at the end of the day, ATC is just the tip of the iceberg of ground support. There's lots happening beneath the surface. If you care to look, you'll see.
A.