Spanish ATC
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Spain is broke as a nation and they wont win,
They seem to be 'winning' now with ATC, getting all the stiff upper-lipper Brits in a huff.
To bad for them.
Uplift more fuel and carry on...regardless.
NB.
Jeez, the Brits seem to do nothing but bit*h, bit*h, bit*h...no wonder they have a bad reputation elsewhere.
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there should not be a fight but the realisation that even a Spanish ATC-officer has to benchmark his performance and benefits with other guys in similar developed countries and their T&C.
As easy as that.
Single European Sky is an absolute need, the sooner the better.
As easy as that.
Single European Sky is an absolute need, the sooner the better.
I know studi personally...and he is absolutely 100%correct...IE spot on, for the Brits, here.
Ignore at your peril.
PS.
411A... in Euroland since 1974...and still opertating there.
Ha!
Anybody else confused by 411A's last post? It sounds like he does not understand what the single european sky is about. According to Wikipedia it is intended to organise european airspace uniformly, with air traffic control areas based on operational efficiency, not national borders.
I cannot see many brit or german pilots for that matter being upset about the concept. Spanish air traffic controllers are unlikely however to view it with much enthusiasm.
Maybe he really has changed his opinion.
I cannot see many brit or german pilots for that matter being upset about the concept. Spanish air traffic controllers are unlikely however to view it with much enthusiasm.
Maybe he really has changed his opinion.
411a, I can hardly believe your hypocrisy!
If the controllers in the USA were behaving in the manner that the Spanish ATC are currently doing I would like to see the reaction of the Yanks!
If the controllers in the USA were behaving in the manner that the Spanish ATC are currently doing I would like to see the reaction of the Yanks!
ATC conveniently forget that we've had flexibility regarding levels/CTOT-5+10/Direct routings for TEN YEARS even through the boom times of 2007/2008 when there was much more traffic about.
Jeez, the Brits seem to do nothing but bit*h, bit*h, bit*h...no wonder they have a bad reputation elsewhere
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Madrid ATC this morning used the phrase 'station calling' to us 6 times as we checked into the various ground, departure and approach frequencies......SIX TIMES ARGHHHH LISTEN ON THE FREQUENCY!!!
All the talk in the media is of paycuts, which these numbskulls deserve, but unfortunately there is no talk of the shockingly bad and often dangerous service they provide - this too needs to be highlighted, and radically overhauled.
All the talk in the media is of paycuts, which these numbskulls deserve, but unfortunately there is no talk of the shockingly bad and often dangerous service they provide - this too needs to be highlighted, and radically overhauled.
NB.
Jeez, the Brits seem to do nothing but bit*h, bit*h, bit*h...no wonder they have a bad reputation elsewhere.
Jeez, the Brits seem to do nothing but bit*h, bit*h, bit*h...no wonder they have a bad reputation elsewhere.
Posts on this thread come from every nationality under the sun, my friend; all of whom are fed up with the situation in Spain. The fact that the website is predominantly in the English language and many people appreciate the professionalism of the UK controllers might skew the impression that it's just the Brits whinging. But it's not.
Do you have a chip on your shoulder against the British?
Experienced Tristar pilot or not, sometimes I do wonder...
Gonzo
The ATIS in Palma was warning a 20 minute taxi time. So when we called up for start, we were told to call again 20 minutes before our CTOT. However we could see the runway and there were at least 8 aircraft waiting to enter the runway. So even with the best will in the world, we would not have made our slot.
That is after the slot had been kicked out once. Then the new slot time was going up and down like a set of whore's draws.
We eventually got airbourne, 50 minutes after our slot time.
In the last 3 days I have been delayed in and out of Spain 8 hours. Funnily enough the only flights that were on time were the Iberia positioning flights.
Funny co-incidence.
411A
There was nothing to conflict...Your arguemet was about us flying the SID and the flight plan. However we were restricted, for 100NM which was not part of our flight plan.
Our flight plan was FL 380 not FL 240, so how is that keeping to the Flight Plan.
Also the aircraft I fly is not designed to carry several extra tonnes of fuel, for contigency. If I was into conspiracy theories, combined with the 70kts headwind, I would suggest that they knew this. And a diversion would have been in order. Surely controllers are trained to know the performance of an aircraft?
From what I saw this week, the attitude of some controllers, does nothing to aide safety. Infact, I would suggest that it threatens safety.
411A
I have always thought that I would like to meet you and listern to some of your wisdom.
Undoubtedly, there would be a large amount you could teach my meagre middle aged years. However there is probably a great deal that you could learn from us “modern” european pilots.
However your posts underly a serious small knob syndrome...
The ATIS in Palma was warning a 20 minute taxi time. So when we called up for start, we were told to call again 20 minutes before our CTOT. However we could see the runway and there were at least 8 aircraft waiting to enter the runway. So even with the best will in the world, we would not have made our slot.
That is after the slot had been kicked out once. Then the new slot time was going up and down like a set of whore's draws.
We eventually got airbourne, 50 minutes after our slot time.
In the last 3 days I have been delayed in and out of Spain 8 hours. Funnily enough the only flights that were on time were the Iberia positioning flights.
Funny co-incidence.
411A
There was nothing to conflict...Your arguemet was about us flying the SID and the flight plan. However we were restricted, for 100NM which was not part of our flight plan.
Our flight plan was FL 380 not FL 240, so how is that keeping to the Flight Plan.
Also the aircraft I fly is not designed to carry several extra tonnes of fuel, for contigency. If I was into conspiracy theories, combined with the 70kts headwind, I would suggest that they knew this. And a diversion would have been in order. Surely controllers are trained to know the performance of an aircraft?
From what I saw this week, the attitude of some controllers, does nothing to aide safety. Infact, I would suggest that it threatens safety.
411A
I have always thought that I would like to meet you and listern to some of your wisdom.
Undoubtedly, there would be a large amount you could teach my meagre middle aged years. However there is probably a great deal that you could learn from us “modern” european pilots.
However your posts underly a serious small knob syndrome...
The Silver Bullet
If as some have pointed out, that controllers are not getting days off etc. Then that is worrying.
However I have a silver bullet.
Give the controllers more time off etc.
By removing the huge wage bill and employing more controllers on a sensible wage.
Everyone wins.
Including us whining Brits.
However I have a silver bullet.
Give the controllers more time off etc.
By removing the huge wage bill and employing more controllers on a sensible wage.
Everyone wins.
Including us whining Brits.
Surely controllers are trained to know the performance of an aircraft?
(it would appear the opposite is also true)
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Also the aircraft I fly is not designed to carry several extra tonnes of fuel, for contigency.
I had this very scenario two weeks ago, transAtlantic and chucked off three tons of excess baggage, as more fuel was needed, due strong headwinds
IF you're a professional (as you claim) use your head and find a solution.
I suspect the Spanish ATC folks could care less about your problem...as they have their own set of difficulties.
I also suspect they will not change their modus operandi anytime soon.
A couple of weeks ago at Palma (yes, there again) we called for start-up at CTOT -8 mins. We were on a remote stand with no pushback necessary. We of course received the predictable "you have missed your slot, you have to call operations for a new one". As usual, not a single aircraft at the hold point - we would have easily been airborne within the slot time.
So I call the Palma Operations frequency to see what's going on while the captain is on the phone to the company (and can't get through.) After being told to standby for a few minutes, they come back with a new slot in 2hrs 20 mins time. I enquire as to the reason for the delay, and the response comes back "we don't know, it has been given from flow management in Brussels." Muchas gracias for your help, mate.
A few minutes later the captain gets through to our ops on the phone and lets them know about the new slot. They can see it but tell us they can't do anything with it, nor even file a new flight plan, because it is something called a "tech slot". Neither the captain or I had ever heard of one of these before, but apparently it is a delay applied to your flight plan by the local air traffic control if you have a technical problem and won't be going for a while. From what our ops controller said, the upshot was that we had 'missed' our original slot (by being ready only 8 minutes before it instead of 15) and Palma had then, for reasons only known to themselves, whacked on a "tech" slot which couldn't be changed, and the flight plan couldn't be re-filed.
I asked the captain to point out to our ops guy that Palma Operations had said the slot had come from CFMU, to which ops replied that was nonsense and it had been assigned by Palma, as only they could apply that type of restriction, and there was nothing further he could do.
About two days later, the exact same thing happened again to another of our aircraft operated by a friend of mine. Almost a carbon copy.
Could someone with a better working knowledge of the slot system and Spanish ATC please clear up the following for me:
- What exactly is the definition of a 'tech slot'?
- Is it true that only the local ATC can apply it?
- If so, why did they lie to us and tell us explicitly that it came from CFMU?
- Is it correct, therefore, to assume that Palma did it just to annoy us as much as possible?
It's worth pointing out that it did improve by over an hour after sending a ready message, but I am interested in the principles behind it. I fail to see how it can be up to an ATC unit to decide whether or not an aircraft has a technical problem and how long that technical problem might take to fix, but I've never heard of this before and I'm only going on the limited 2nd hand information from our ops department. Given the poor service provided in Spain this summer, and the particularly appalling 'service' being provided by Palma, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that my assumption is correct.
So I call the Palma Operations frequency to see what's going on while the captain is on the phone to the company (and can't get through.) After being told to standby for a few minutes, they come back with a new slot in 2hrs 20 mins time. I enquire as to the reason for the delay, and the response comes back "we don't know, it has been given from flow management in Brussels." Muchas gracias for your help, mate.
A few minutes later the captain gets through to our ops on the phone and lets them know about the new slot. They can see it but tell us they can't do anything with it, nor even file a new flight plan, because it is something called a "tech slot". Neither the captain or I had ever heard of one of these before, but apparently it is a delay applied to your flight plan by the local air traffic control if you have a technical problem and won't be going for a while. From what our ops controller said, the upshot was that we had 'missed' our original slot (by being ready only 8 minutes before it instead of 15) and Palma had then, for reasons only known to themselves, whacked on a "tech" slot which couldn't be changed, and the flight plan couldn't be re-filed.
I asked the captain to point out to our ops guy that Palma Operations had said the slot had come from CFMU, to which ops replied that was nonsense and it had been assigned by Palma, as only they could apply that type of restriction, and there was nothing further he could do.
About two days later, the exact same thing happened again to another of our aircraft operated by a friend of mine. Almost a carbon copy.
Could someone with a better working knowledge of the slot system and Spanish ATC please clear up the following for me:
- What exactly is the definition of a 'tech slot'?
- Is it true that only the local ATC can apply it?
- If so, why did they lie to us and tell us explicitly that it came from CFMU?
- Is it correct, therefore, to assume that Palma did it just to annoy us as much as possible?
It's worth pointing out that it did improve by over an hour after sending a ready message, but I am interested in the principles behind it. I fail to see how it can be up to an ATC unit to decide whether or not an aircraft has a technical problem and how long that technical problem might take to fix, but I've never heard of this before and I'm only going on the limited 2nd hand information from our ops department. Given the poor service provided in Spain this summer, and the particularly appalling 'service' being provided by Palma, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that my assumption is correct.
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ZM you asked for understanding of the slot system so here I go:
There is only one thing that worries me more than the fact that somebody could start repoducing such utter load of b0ll0cks and its the fact that you bought into it.
I don't know if I should give you the following information but here I go again: Santa does not exist.
Going back to the heart of the matter: whatever request you make through Palma Operations is fed into a computer by somebody who's not located at the ATC facility and is not a controller. The reply comes directly form the CFMU system. No evil Spanish gnome intervention except for any reg that the Spanish ATC may have previously fed into the system. The reg may read something like this "Zippy Monster's aircraft cannot take off until frogs start shaving". Not true, just kidding, don't buy into it.
Since we're going round in circles let's recap.
Spanish ATC are working to the rules set by the AENA beancounters. It all started when the beancounters started intruding into operational matters. Make your homework and find the beancounters' reply to the controllers complaint about understaffing and overloaded sectors.
There's a war going on but the controllers are not trying to make your life miserable. They are overstressed and abiding by the beancounters' rules (no directs, full SIDS, etc.). If some pilot got home 2h late, some Spanish controllers had to take their kid to work because of the newly imposed nazi rules like the "on call" system. Live with it like I do. If not able 411A may give you appropriate counseling.
And finally: moderator where are you? Posts containing explicit insults like the ones from specimens ala McNutty (approximative spelling) should be (and most probably are) against pprune rules. What are you waiting to remove them? I've had posts erased for much much less.
Would 411A be right and there would be a certain bias (I'll let you guess which one it is) in this forum?
There is only one thing that worries me more than the fact that somebody could start repoducing such utter load of b0ll0cks and its the fact that you bought into it.
I don't know if I should give you the following information but here I go again: Santa does not exist.
Going back to the heart of the matter: whatever request you make through Palma Operations is fed into a computer by somebody who's not located at the ATC facility and is not a controller. The reply comes directly form the CFMU system. No evil Spanish gnome intervention except for any reg that the Spanish ATC may have previously fed into the system. The reg may read something like this "Zippy Monster's aircraft cannot take off until frogs start shaving". Not true, just kidding, don't buy into it.
Since we're going round in circles let's recap.
Spanish ATC are working to the rules set by the AENA beancounters. It all started when the beancounters started intruding into operational matters. Make your homework and find the beancounters' reply to the controllers complaint about understaffing and overloaded sectors.
There's a war going on but the controllers are not trying to make your life miserable. They are overstressed and abiding by the beancounters' rules (no directs, full SIDS, etc.). If some pilot got home 2h late, some Spanish controllers had to take their kid to work because of the newly imposed nazi rules like the "on call" system. Live with it like I do. If not able 411A may give you appropriate counseling.
And finally: moderator where are you? Posts containing explicit insults like the ones from specimens ala McNutty (approximative spelling) should be (and most probably are) against pprune rules. What are you waiting to remove them? I've had posts erased for much much less.
Would 411A be right and there would be a certain bias (I'll let you guess which one it is) in this forum?
Going back to the heart of the matter: whatever request you make through Palma Operations is fed into a computer by somebody who's not located at the ATC facility and is not a controller. The reply comes directly form the CFMU system. No evil Spanish gnome intervention except for any reg that the Spanish ATC may have previously fed into the system.
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There is no flight plan on earth which can not be cancelled and refiled. Actually you can do it with a simple SITA message to CFMU if you know the correct format and address to use. Within 30 secs you can cancel/delay any (live) flight plans of the world (belonging to any company) if you know the proper flight number and dep/dest station as CFMU is not checking the authority of the sender only the message format. You will be later catched by your address but that's a different story.
However if you refile a flight plan you will automatically be put at the very end of the queue of flights using the limiting airspace/aerodrome (being an LF = Late Filer) therefore it is the worst tactics to fight against a slot. For a simple 10 mins extension your OPS guys can call CFMU Helpdesk, they help in 90% of the cases without sending any delay message. If you got the sh#&đy CTOT already, better to keep the original flight plan/EOBT, ask ATC to relase a ready message and wait for someone else delaying their EOBT or your ops guys to beg successfully to CFMU helpdesk for an improvement. Let's hope that AENA/UFOENA/WHOKNOWSENA does not prohibit ATC staff to send ready messages...
However if you refile a flight plan you will automatically be put at the very end of the queue of flights using the limiting airspace/aerodrome (being an LF = Late Filer) therefore it is the worst tactics to fight against a slot. For a simple 10 mins extension your OPS guys can call CFMU Helpdesk, they help in 90% of the cases without sending any delay message. If you got the sh#&đy CTOT already, better to keep the original flight plan/EOBT, ask ATC to relase a ready message and wait for someone else delaying their EOBT or your ops guys to beg successfully to CFMU helpdesk for an improvement. Let's hope that AENA/UFOENA/WHOKNOWSENA does not prohibit ATC staff to send ready messages...
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Well, quite often you ask them to send a ready message, they tell you that it is send, you call your own OPS which tells you that no ready message was send and CFMU already told them not to call for any flight again...