Spanish ATC
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An "expedite vacate" helps the ATCO not me really, so forget it.
Actions taken by Spanish ATCos are stupid and hurt users of airspace (a/c crews), but actions you propose are equally stupid, and in fact also hurt users of airspace (a/c crews), so they make even less sense.
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which is why they thank you when you do it.
They are not even sending "ready messages" anymore, the most recent phrase is "contact your company for that".
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An "expedite vacate" helps the ATCO not me really, so forget it.
Nope, it helps other a/c.
Nope, it helps other a/c.
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Working "to the rule" you have to vacate without delay, as that's what Madrid's AIP says.
Anyway, to work as a pilot or ATCo one needs some level of maturity, the argument started by Spaniards and followed by you seems a bit childish.
PS. If you decide to have an afternoon tea on the runway, it's not me going around.
Anyway, to work as a pilot or ATCo one needs some level of maturity, the argument started by Spaniards and followed by you seems a bit childish.
PS. If you decide to have an afternoon tea on the runway, it's not me going around.
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Working "to the rule" you have to vacate without delay, as that's what Madrid's AIP says.
The level of maturity of some ATCO's in the south of Europe is directly proportional to their english level.
My 2 pence of advise?Just go on strike.
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The level of maturity of some ATCO's in the south of Europe is directly proportional to their english level.
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maybepilot
not referring to the specific situation in spain, this is a typical situation in which a pilot is asked to expedit vacate:
"If you decide to have an afternoon tea on the runway, it's not me going around"
P.S.: do you feel more comfortable in italy?!! Mmmh (and I'm from italy)
not referring to the specific situation in spain, this is a typical situation in which a pilot is asked to expedit vacate:
"If you decide to have an afternoon tea on the runway, it's not me going around"
P.S.: do you feel more comfortable in italy?!! Mmmh (and I'm from italy)
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Drex,
if you ask me to expedite vacate it's because ATC or someone behind me screwed up; what I do with my landing then is totally up to me.
If I decide to take it easy and safe and give myself every safety margin I deem necessary for my landing then nobody can question my decisions.
Not sure what you are on to with Italy however.
if you ask me to expedite vacate it's because ATC or someone behind me screwed up; what I do with my landing then is totally up to me.
If I decide to take it easy and safe and give myself every safety margin I deem necessary for my landing then nobody can question my decisions.
Not sure what you are on to with Italy however.
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It happens, that even with right speed and distance, somebody is so slow vacating that seems to be in love with the runway...
about italy, I mean that it's strange that talking about spanish and also french ATC, nobody came out with italy!
ciaociao!
about italy, I mean that it's strange that talking about spanish and also french ATC, nobody came out with italy!
ciaociao!
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First off, I'll state that I don't condone any penalising of operators as a means of 'industrial action'. It goes against a controllers principle of getting the aircraft out of your airspace as quickly as possible 
That said, there are a few things which perhaps need some explanation.
[..]
Lots of formal information and explanatory documentation about what I have tried to explain can be found here:
Eurocontrol Flight Plan and ATFCM Adherence
There are also going to be a couple of Flight Plan Adherence campaign days in September run by Eurocontrol all across Europe. This probably justifies inclusion in Rumours & News. Full details on the website above.
That said, there are a few things which perhaps need some explanation.
[..]
Lots of formal information and explanatory documentation about what I have tried to explain can be found here:
Eurocontrol Flight Plan and ATFCM Adherence
There are also going to be a couple of Flight Plan Adherence campaign days in September run by Eurocontrol all across Europe. This probably justifies inclusion in Rumours & News. Full details on the website above.
The BASIC rule of ATC is to SPEED UP the traffic flow while helping mantaining separation. These complex and UNUSEFUL rules you post equal LONGER DELAYS and NOTHING ELSE.
I would send all these overpaid ATC divas to KDFW, KLAX or KJFK to actually learn to be a controller...
This is the way we do things in Europe.... make SIMPLE things.... HARDER!
Read the The OFPIS File: The Organisation for the Preservation of Individuality and Sovereignty [Paperback] written by Vernon Coleman and you will understand where all this type of insane and mindless bureaucracy and red tape is coming from.
The OFPIS File: The Organisation for the Preservation of Individuality and Sovereignty [Paperback]
The OFPIS File: The Organisation for the Preservation of Individuality and Sovereignty [Paperback]
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Can't we just all fly procedurally with 4D Navigation and do away with ATC altogether? They stick us all into small corridors of their choosing and then earn a fortune keeping us apart in those corridors. If there was no ATC, we'd find a way to work it out. If there were no planes, ATC wouldn't exist.
ATC in general is a great example of a monopoly providing a poor service to paying customers who have no choice but to use it. It makes them lazy and slow to adapt to the changing priorities of their customers.
Which is the dog, which is the tail?
ATC in general is a great example of a monopoly providing a poor service to paying customers who have no choice but to use it. It makes them lazy and slow to adapt to the changing priorities of their customers.
Which is the dog, which is the tail?
Pegase Driver
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I normally do not enter these types of discussions ( us and them ) as they invariably bring us nowhere. But just a couple of fact corrections for the new in here :
Wrong, basic task is to separarte traffic from other traffic and from various areas. The expeditious bit is there all right , but secondary in priority.
I' m sure 10W will reply you , but for me it is no different to the ( say RYR ) girl that close the check in 40 min before ETD while the inbound flight is not even landed yet. Come at the gate 38 min bore ETD ,and you'll have a to buy a new ticket on the next flight. Both are equally stupid, but that's the world we live in 2010.
Wrong info, more like half . But does not matter, why are their salaries bothering you as a pilot ? (if you are one ) jealousy? I happened to know the former Fleet chief Pilot on the AF Concorde. His salary was 20 times mine at the time ,for between 2 and 4 flights a month. Jealous, not, envious , you bet! But good luck for him.
Finally :
Be my guest .Try. The technology already exsist , it is called ADS-B coupled with CDTI (Cockpit display of traffic info ). ask UPS.
Ah, and the reason why they are " small corridors" as you call them is perhaps also to avoid the military areas and other niceties no ?
The BASIC rule of ATC is to SPEED UP the traffic flow while helping mantaining separation
Now 10W, you can give me all the good reasons in the world to justify the actions of the Spanish ATCO, I just can't understand this.
The basic pay [ for an ATCO in Spain ] is 370,000 Euro.
Finally :
Can't we just all fly procedurally with 4D Navigation and do away with ATC altogether? They stick us all into small corridors of their choosing and then earn a fortune keeping us apart in those corridors. If there was no ATC, we'd find a way to work it out.
Ah, and the reason why they are " small corridors" as you call them is perhaps also to avoid the military areas and other niceties no ?
My 2 pence of advise?Just go on strike.
this is from the ATC forum..
A female coleague working at LEMD (BarajasīTWR) was "granted" by AENA with one of those mandatory recalls I already told you about: she was just about to finish her morning shift, when someone from the staff of HR visited the TWR and told her that she had to return to work that night. My colleague is the mother of a baby, and couldnīt find anybody with such a short notice to babysit him. So the only solution she found is to attend the service that night, taking the baby with her. Of course, she had to take the craddle and the feeding bottle, along with the meal for the dinner. The baby had to go through the security screening process, were the surprised security personnel assigned him an ID badge for his overnight stay.
These are the people trying to stop another Uberlingen, Tenerife, GOL, PSA should they be working under these conditions?
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No they should not.
Still should I as client of them be treated the way we are at the moment? Me donīt think so. Mr & Mrs. real good paid ATCO in their shiny towers not wanting to relay a ready message? Deliberately wrecking schedule like in "enjoy the view" īs example? Remembers me of the german 1973 'slow-go'.
Putting an real big portion of stress and uncertainy on aircrews? Is that safe? Does it help to make their case when airlines and coorperate airplanes schedule are junked by their action? My best guess is no.
I operate a coorperate airplane mostly in Europe as a one man show, meaning I do all the planning and flying (with my fellow co-captain)
The endless and everchanging changes in Eurocontrol (RAD - how I hate that thing) is one thing that is enough to push one over the edge, but the different handling and substrike performance of the guys in Spain is the nail on the coffin. (for my nerves, that is)
As an ATCOs son I do understand ATC a bit and Iīm not advocating unregulated flying - that wonīt work in todays traffic. Even CFMU has its goods. But how the system works today is sometimes akward and bad.
That single ATCOs use their 'force majeur' is unacceptable. We ll know how many factors flow into a single flight and its punctualty. To try to make such a flexible, wobbling system as airtraffic rigid is not going to work.
I always understood ATCOs as part of our team, after all we canīt life without em and viceversa.
Still should I as client of them be treated the way we are at the moment? Me donīt think so. Mr & Mrs. real good paid ATCO in their shiny towers not wanting to relay a ready message? Deliberately wrecking schedule like in "enjoy the view" īs example? Remembers me of the german 1973 'slow-go'.
Putting an real big portion of stress and uncertainy on aircrews? Is that safe? Does it help to make their case when airlines and coorperate airplanes schedule are junked by their action? My best guess is no.
I operate a coorperate airplane mostly in Europe as a one man show, meaning I do all the planning and flying (with my fellow co-captain)
The endless and everchanging changes in Eurocontrol (RAD - how I hate that thing) is one thing that is enough to push one over the edge, but the different handling and substrike performance of the guys in Spain is the nail on the coffin. (for my nerves, that is)
As an ATCOs son I do understand ATC a bit and Iīm not advocating unregulated flying - that wonīt work in todays traffic. Even CFMU has its goods. But how the system works today is sometimes akward and bad.
That single ATCOs use their 'force majeur' is unacceptable. We ll know how many factors flow into a single flight and its punctualty. To try to make such a flexible, wobbling system as airtraffic rigid is not going to work.
I always understood ATCOs as part of our team, after all we canīt life without em and viceversa.