UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

[Scuzi]

Originally Posted by BDiONU

I dunno if you're NSL or NERL but I can only answer from a NERL perspective. Is your ATSA a qualified and licensed ATCO? If not why are you expecting him/her to fulfill ATCO duties?

Have we done away with OJTI's now so that ab initio's are controlling solo? Has passing boards become easier such that just any old person can pass one now? I don't believe that to be the case, therefore I don't believe that the perceived 'quality' of ab initio's is compromising safety.

Hhhmmm, perhaps the controller should be concentrating on the job in hand and saving 'worries' for when they're off console, like professionals do.

Cheers
BD

I always had time for your perspective on such matters and I'd even go as far as to say I sometimes found it rather refreshing. However, your post displays a level of ignorance beyond comprehension. I was going to reply to your points but I can't help but feel it would go in one ear (eye?) and out the other.

Are you really that ignorant of what an ATCO's job entails or are you playing the devil's advocate?

[wiccan]

Is your ATSA a qualified and licensed ATCO?

No I'm not....but.....I've given my ATCO a "nudge" now and again, and got a "thanks, mate" out of it. Part of my job description is to assist the ATCO..... I do that to the best of my ability. If i point out something he/she has missed, we are both happy. If I point out something he/she has seen, guess what? we are both still happy. Why? 'cos we trust each other, that's why.
bb

[anotherthing]

I appreciate fully that office workers/CTC staff may not fully understand the job of an ATCO or assistant and the teamwork that is involved.

It is slightly worrying that an 'ATC Expert' who used to be a controller has lost sight of the ATCO/ATSA relationship, just because they now reside at CTC.

Maybe that is indicative of where this company is going wrong, if ex ATCOs are even questioning the ATSA role and significance?

[zkdli]

Hi Anotherthing,
600% higher risk in LTC? Isn't that something to do with the 300+ violations of CAS that the unit has suffered in the last twelve months?

What answer did you get about the flickering screens when you filed an MOR?

[Ceannairceach]

I dunno if you're NSL or NERL but I can only answer from a NERL perspective. Is your ATSA a qualified and licensed ATCO? If not why are you expecting him/her to fulfill ATCO duties?

I don't normally bite, but this time I'll make an exception....have you ever actually worked as a NATS ATCO with an ATSA? Admittedly they're not all the godsends they could be - just like ATCOs for that matter - but I know so many of my colleagues have been "saved" in one way or another by a good ATSA alongside them. Whether it be spotting something, assisting when the sector goes a over t, or bashing a ludicrous route in to HCS. To dispute this isn't big, or clever, it just exposes you as ignorant and out of touch quite frankly.

Safety is compromised when the controller is concerned with his pending relocation, his dwindling pension or the future of the company when they should only be thinking of keeping the planes apart.

Hhhmmm, perhaps the controller should be concentrating on the job in hand and saving 'worries' for when they're off console, like professionals do.

Are we employing robots all of a sudden?

If you think being worried about something so major as uprooting your whole family and life, or paying your bills, or worrying about whether you'll have a job next week is "unprofessional" then I'm glad you're down at CTC behind a desk, and not sitting next to me or, heaven forfend, managing me.

You cannot, and should not, treat humans like machines. As any human factors/HR bod will gladly tell you. To do so is, frankly, unsafe.

....at least most of us still have quite well paid jobs.

That's alright then. Because we've got jobs we should all shut up should we and take whatever is meted out to us?

I tell you something, I bet you'd be the first one whinging and moaning if it was your little piece of the pie being nibbled away at by PB and his poker games with our futures.

I mostly enjoy your input here. You provide a refreshing alternative viewpoint most of the time, and I'm glad someone does. And you usually do it well. However, the above post was not only aggressive, but it was a poor show from you. I'm disappointed.

[Standard Noise]

The Union reps do this voluntarily, much of it in their own time for no reward (no, we are not paid for it)

Indeed, we're not paid, we do it for the greater good.

As an aside, I read a section of the PCS mag at work this afternoon and it said much the same thing about negotiating pay deals (as in the Prospect mag) and cited rises in food, fuel, council tax etc as a reason why workers should not be forced to accept poor pay deals..............except for their members at NATS obviously.

[BDiONU]

Originally Posted by anotherthing

BD is an ex RAF controller.

Correct and I have controlled at ScACC and LJAO so am very aware of the civil way of working.

I must admit, his opinion did surprise me somewhat given his ATC history, especially as he would have been an assistant at one time himself and should know how a good assistant can enhance the safety operation.

I was indeed an ATSA and worked my way up the greasy pole. I note all of the comments from others about my perception of the ATSA role and I stand by it. Increased use of tools in NERL is making some ATSA tasks redundant. For example is it really good use of a person to take strips off a printer, put them in a holder and take them round to the controllers? I don't think so and iFACTS and EFD will remove that requirement (already TC ATSA's don't sit on the sectors and PC will have ATSA's slightly further away than currently). There are very vital jobs for ATSA's to do, ones which are demanding of skill, knowledge and expertise but not ATCO skills etc.

I apologise for the aggressive tone of my post, it was unnecessary. Just as you shouldn't post when drunk you shouldn't post when not feeling great

BD

[kats-I]

BD

IS that what you think ATSAs do all day long, just put strips in a holder? TC ATSAs have always stood up to work and have never sat along side the controller because they have to service more than one sector at a time which at times can be a bit frustrating with everyone having to relay information or having to shout for amendments to be done rather than being able to turn to someone at your side.
I'm sure in your days as an Assistant your controllers thought more of you than a strip -basher!!

Technology is a wonderful thing except that the more advanced we become the less people are required but when it all goes wrong you can't beat human input to correct it but they will all be long gone because some bright spark invented something to replace them!!!

[MNT]

Wake up & smell the coffee

Sorry if this come across as agressive but I have following the debate for sometime and I know this is a rumour network but lets have somefacts to back up some of these suggestions:-

roidster stated that "4 if we can just hold out until PB leaves maybe the next guy will understand that when it comes to safety, you can't keep cutting back. Hopefully the company can recover from PB's wrecking of NATS."

Who do you think appoints the next CEO it is the Shareholders as far as I can see they will think PB has done an excellent job since he joined running the company as a commercial organisation.

In profit since he arrived!
Delays down considerably!
Improved safety performance!
Costs being challenged and driven down!

Why would they want to appoint someone with a different view and why do you think it won't be someone already in the comapny being groomed by PB e.g. IM or LH?

The Civil Service mentality has gone the government are not going to come charging over the hill to help the workforce or company out we will sink or swim on our own.

As for the thoughts on other European ANSPs investing money when NATS can't you only have to look as far as the Single European Skies Legislation to see that the days of national service providers are numbered so they will not have deep pockets for very much longer. Also means reduced opportinties for staff in the industry.

If you wnat to challenge the status quo in NATS you need facts & figures not opinions. Where is the evidence that safety is deterioarting and where is the evidence that PB is getting a 9% rise just saying it does not make it true.

[ZOOKER]

MNT.
Spelling and grammar, - 2/10.
Wake up & smell the English Language lessons.

[mr.777]

In profit since he arrived!
Delays down considerably!
Improved safety performance!
Costs being challenged and driven down

1) Yes we are, and everybody is benefitng aren't they? Well, the Airline Group and Manangement anyway...the rest of us are getting shafted.
2)Yes....down to ATCOs/ATSAs/Engineers...and all the other grades that he would rather didn't exist.
3)See above
4)More like money being spent on the cheap on projects that don't work e.g. AMAN. So we've stopped the award ceremonies and stopped publishing Pulse...well whoop-de-doo.

[MNT]

Mr 777 said "1) Yes we are, and everybody is benefitng aren't they? Well, the Airline Group and Manangement anyway...the rest of us are getting shafted.
2)Yes....down to ATCOs/ATSAs/Engineers...and all the other grades that he would rather didn't exist.
3)See above
4)More like money being spent on the cheap on projects that don't work e.g. AMAN. So we've stopped the award ceremonies and stopped publishing Pulse...well whoop-de-doo."


You make the points exactly, to the poeple who make the decision on the next CEO he is doing an ecellent job so why would they want to look for anything different in the next appointee.

If you want a differnt approach you need some facts and figures to support the case. So how many staff have left, how many safety incicdents have there been that are down to the changes introduced by PB, it is no good just moaning about our lot someone has to have a case for change supported by data.

[Ballstroker]

The proof of the pudding will come in five to ten years time when delays are up because capacity improvements never came on stream - all because the people responsible were made redundant to get costs down to boost Mr Barron's 2010 golden handshake.

[Me Me Me Me]

MNT:

If you wnat to challenge the status quo in NATS you need facts & figures not opinions. Where is the evidence that safety is deterioarting and where is the evidence that PB is getting a 9% rise just saying it does not make it true.

On the latter... the evidence will be clearly stated in black and white in next year's statement of accounts. The rumoured amount isn't entirely accurate.

[dallas2]

Me Me Me Me
What. you mean it could be MORE!!!!!

[Me Me Me Me]

..............................................

[RPIplus1]

Inflation

Isn't it amazing how management seem to conveniently forget that the forecast for long-term inflation is high... remember being told this when we were given the pension rhetoric??

It suits their needs to conveniently forget this now because we are being told that inflation is going to be negative in August.


Just goes to show that the people who voted "Yes" to the pension changes were 'duped'!

Enough of us were shouting this at the time but people still voted "Yes" ... or even worse did not vote at all!!


Get a grip people... ensure you vote - my recommendation is to Vote_No

[Vote NO]

............

[Quincy M.E.]

Originally Posted by RPIplus1

Enough of us were shouting this at the time but people still voted "Yes" ... or even worse did not vote at all!!

Where were you shouting it? I would imagine that the majority of NATs staff are non ops and therefore are unlikely to be reading PPRUNE.

[hold at SATAN]

...and commenting on photo of the day!