UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Hootin - ROVI system isn't dead yet. ROVIs just don't work for NSL as such. The college has it's reasons for that.
I didn't say there was no room at Band 1/2/3 units, I said that ROVIs are given no guarantee that there will be a place for them back at their old unit, the one where they still hold a validation. I know this, trust me.
Take Bristol for example, we are up to OR as of last week (we weren't before NATS came along). If one of our lot goes to the college as a ROVI and the unit slides someone into replace them while they are away (which it will be able to afford since the ROVI isn't on their budget anymore), then how can they walk back in after a two year contract if there is no space for them? Or do you know something I don't?
While a two year contract on Band 5 won't turn anyone into a member of the Porsche club, it will take them above that level of a Band 2 payscale which rules out many units (including their own) as these units can't afford their salary and there are no pay protection/substantive grade type arrangements available for this sort of thing, so the ATCO has to take a pay cut and hope that there is a place for them.
Trawls are all about getting round the hassle and cost of putting someone through a college course (which isn't designed for any NSL unit less busy than Manch anyway). Why not poach people from elsewhere if they're happy to come, the rest of the world does it to NATS.
I didn't say there was no room at Band 1/2/3 units, I said that ROVIs are given no guarantee that there will be a place for them back at their old unit, the one where they still hold a validation. I know this, trust me.
Take Bristol for example, we are up to OR as of last week (we weren't before NATS came along). If one of our lot goes to the college as a ROVI and the unit slides someone into replace them while they are away (which it will be able to afford since the ROVI isn't on their budget anymore), then how can they walk back in after a two year contract if there is no space for them? Or do you know something I don't?
While a two year contract on Band 5 won't turn anyone into a member of the Porsche club, it will take them above that level of a Band 2 payscale which rules out many units (including their own) as these units can't afford their salary and there are no pay protection/substantive grade type arrangements available for this sort of thing, so the ATCO has to take a pay cut and hope that there is a place for them.
Trawls are all about getting round the hassle and cost of putting someone through a college course (which isn't designed for any NSL unit less busy than Manch anyway). Why not poach people from elsewhere if they're happy to come, the rest of the world does it to NATS.
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According to last years financial report, NERL profit before tax was £66.2 million (and this took account of £20.4 million relocation costs from WD to Swanwick).
We allegedly need to save £45m p.a which gave us the figure of a £90m saving before the end of CP2. Apparently our glorious management have already saved us £10m p.a leaving us with £35m worth of slack to pick up.
If there are NO redundancies, and instead NERL takes a £35m hit on their income, then according to last years figures, this would still give them a profit in excess of £30m before tax. This would also allow for the MACC relocation incurring the same costs as the WD relocation.
I know traffic has decreased recently. I have witnessed the downturn personally. However.... How MUCH does it have to decline before our "not for profit" company ceases to turn a profit????
Lets all not forget also, this is before any pension savings over the next two years start to show their impact on the annual profits.....
We allegedly need to save £45m p.a which gave us the figure of a £90m saving before the end of CP2. Apparently our glorious management have already saved us £10m p.a leaving us with £35m worth of slack to pick up.
If there are NO redundancies, and instead NERL takes a £35m hit on their income, then according to last years figures, this would still give them a profit in excess of £30m before tax. This would also allow for the MACC relocation incurring the same costs as the WD relocation.
I know traffic has decreased recently. I have witnessed the downturn personally. However.... How MUCH does it have to decline before our "not for profit" company ceases to turn a profit????
Lets all not forget also, this is before any pension savings over the next two years start to show their impact on the annual profits.....
Last edited by DirtyStopout; 29th Jan 2009 at 20:36. Reason: to add a P.S ;)
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What next?
CX launches bad news campaign today.
Folk take a hit on “No pay rise” in fear of their jobs.
NSL go into meltdown as their customers threaten to renege on their contracts or simply will not renew at NATS prices.
Pension loses a sack full of fund value in the last quarter according to NATS valuation.
Memorandum of Understanding is erased from voter’s memory.
RB goes cap in hand about CP3 to the CAA who say cull (efficiencies) before we will consider altering CP3 proposals.
Meanwhile JJJ goes in search of a mouse!
CX launches bad news campaign today.
Folk take a hit on “No pay rise” in fear of their jobs.
NSL go into meltdown as their customers threaten to renege on their contracts or simply will not renew at NATS prices.
Pension loses a sack full of fund value in the last quarter according to NATS valuation.
Memorandum of Understanding is erased from voter’s memory.
RB goes cap in hand about CP3 to the CAA who say cull (efficiencies) before we will consider altering CP3 proposals.
Meanwhile JJJ goes in search of a mouse!
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Its been said before, so i will say it again.
NATS pulled the scaremonger tactics to the extreme during the pension pish, they are doing it now with the pay.
Next year they will do it again with another pay deal and then in a few years they will do it again to get rid of the MOU as they have seen we will buckle and take it.
I hope the union see this coming and take a hard line.
The company do not respect us anymore and it will be take, take, take from here on in!!!
Please prospect, im not unreasonable and demanding 5.8%... although that would be nice, but YOU need to get us respectable pay deal to get back some confidence for a company making record profits and boasting about it to all employees.
NATS pulled the scaremonger tactics to the extreme during the pension pish, they are doing it now with the pay.
Next year they will do it again with another pay deal and then in a few years they will do it again to get rid of the MOU as they have seen we will buckle and take it.
I hope the union see this coming and take a hard line.
The company do not respect us anymore and it will be take, take, take from here on in!!!
Please prospect, im not unreasonable and demanding 5.8%... although that would be nice, but YOU need to get us respectable pay deal to get back some confidence for a company making record profits and boasting about it to all employees.
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Standard Noise
Our union rep applied for ROVI from our NSL unit and was told NSL were no longer taking part in the ROVI scheme. I never said it was dead and certainly isn't if you are in NERL.
As for poaching people I agree we should do it. But take the college away from the overheads that we must pay out of the profit we make.
Our union rep applied for ROVI from our NSL unit and was told NSL were no longer taking part in the ROVI scheme. I never said it was dead and certainly isn't if you are in NERL.
As for poaching people I agree we should do it. But take the college away from the overheads that we must pay out of the profit we make.
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Why not just sack all those pesky controllers and ATSAs ?
I mean, who needs them. All they do is grumble and complain on NATSnet, winding up the "really important people".
Think of the savings!! 2000x£60k a year plus 500x£40k a year = over £140m a year, and that doesn't include pension costs !!
And as a bonus, all the airlines stop flying - think how much good that will do our company carbon footprint !!
I mean, who needs them. All they do is grumble and complain on NATSnet, winding up the "really important people".
Think of the savings!! 2000x£60k a year plus 500x£40k a year = over £140m a year, and that doesn't include pension costs !!
And as a bonus, all the airlines stop flying - think how much good that will do our company carbon footprint !!
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Ben,
Assuming 5000 planes per day, with an average of 25 bods on each, it works out at less than £4 per bod per day to fly through some of the safest and most complex airspace in the world.
A BARGAIN!!
Assuming 5000 planes per day, with an average of 25 bods on each, it works out at less than £4 per bod per day to fly through some of the safest and most complex airspace in the world.
A BARGAIN!!
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What about the AAVA agreement? With the prospect of redundancies / semi-forced early retirement and who knows what else, are the TUs going to continue with the current AAVA agreement?
Sounds like time to rip it up and start re-negotiating that as well.....
Thoughts?
Sounds like time to rip it up and start re-negotiating that as well.....
Thoughts?
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NATS might not need AAVA soon, if they resurrect all the "non operational ATCO's" 
who can pass a medical, I guess it makes sense in the current climate.
I don't know many airlines who have 2000 pilots, 500 of whom can't fly any more and still strutt about with wings on their uniforms demanding flying pay
. Can you imagine Michael O'Leary 
with 25% of his pilots lurking in Ryanair HQ complaining of air sickness and sitting behind a desk 
It's time to get real, NATS can't stay afloat with all the dead wood on board. Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic isn't going to work anymore. Yes,of course we need some guys behind a desk, but certainly not 500!, and they have to be efficient
A 10% -20% drop in traffic would probably negate the requirement for AAVA or O/T anyway
who can pass a medical, I guess it makes sense in the current climate.I don't know many airlines who have 2000 pilots, 500 of whom can't fly any more and still strutt about with wings on their uniforms demanding flying pay
. Can you imagine Michael O'Leary with 25% of his pilots lurking in Ryanair HQ complaining of air sickness and sitting behind a desk It's time to get real, NATS can't stay afloat with all the dead wood on board. Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic isn't going to work anymore. Yes,of course we need some guys behind a desk, but certainly not 500!, and they have to be efficientA 10% -20% drop in traffic would probably negate the requirement for AAVA or O/T anyway
Last edited by Vote NO; 30th Jan 2009 at 11:44.
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Vote No: I agree with you IF they bring all of the non-ops atcos back - which they can't afford to do either. Despite what most people on these forums seem to think, it's much better having some ATCOs involved in projects from the onset, rather than just at the end in time for the mud slinging to begin!
There's already been a couple of AAVA ATCOs in AC at LACC over the past two weeks.... and that's in our quietest month.
There's already been a couple of AAVA ATCOs in AC at LACC over the past two weeks.... and that's in our quietest month.
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DirtyStopout
Does anyone know how many from Manch are actually relocating? Will anyone from Manch admit to relocating?
Rumour has it Scottish will struggle to cross train due lack of Manch staff heading North. There are only a few months left for them to commit to a move,or,.............
If there are NO redundancies, and instead NERL takes a £35m hit on their income, then according to last years figures, this would still give them a profit in excess of £30m before tax. This would also allow for the MACC relocation incurring the same costs as the WD relocation
Rumour has it Scottish will struggle to cross train due lack of Manch staff heading North. There are only a few months left for them to commit to a move,or,.............
Last edited by Vote NO; 30th Jan 2009 at 12:36.
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"Does anyone know how many from Manch are actually relocating? Will anyone from Manch admit to relocating?"
TICK-TOCK, TICK-TOCK, TICK-TOCK.......
TICK-TOCK, TICK-TOCK, TICK-TOCK.......
Last edited by ZOOKER; 30th Jan 2009 at 13:12.
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In his statement, nowhere does it indicate to me that we will make a loss, only that the profit won't be as large as predicted/he'd like...
Secondly, just because airlines are (quite rightly) whingeing over BAA charging, why does that mean that NATS should suffer even more at the hands of the regulator??
Quote:
...it is likely that they will put the economic regulator under intense pressure to deliver a tough settlement for NERL, particularly after the much criticised review by some customers of BAA charges...
NATS provides a world class service, often praised by its customers... BAA on the other hand...
Fair enough savings may have to be made and costs cut, but using the fact that BAA fleeces the airlines for a sub standard service is not an acceptable reason. When I buy things, I expect to pay more for quality items...
As for cost saving - only the other day on the intranet 'Pinboard' there was an advertisement stating (paraphrase)
"Does anyone require a hotel room in Fareham - we have booked one for a meeting which has been cancelled and we will get charged full rate even if we don't use it"
This 'advert' originated from the CTC.
Why are we still spending lots of money (and it is lots, I've attended meetings at the same hotel and have seen the cost) on meeting rooms when there are plenty at either CTC - (a mile down the road) or even at Swanwick (a whole 6 miles down the road)?? The meeting rooms are often greatly inferior to what we have in our own premises
I've asked the question before and been told it is to stop interruptions caused by having meetings in your own normal place of work... complete tosh! If you are at a meeting, you are at a meeting and therefore 'out of office' - just do not accept any disturbances!
Standard Noise
With regards to instructors at the college, it should not just be about the money they will get... people should apply because htey like to teach (and are good at it). The current system whereby everyone gets upgraded to band 5 when they instruct at DAT&Sis ridiculous.
Instead, why not give every suitable ATCO, regardless of the Band of unit they originate from, the same deal? Say a yearly payment on top of their normal salary when they are at the college, then, when it comes time to leave the college, a move to whichever unit they want (this will stop people staying at the college because they do not want to lose money going back to a 'low band' unit).
This is a much fairer way of doing it than the present system whereby someone from a band 2 unit gets a £20k pay rise whereas somoene from a band 5 unit gets a £1.5k pay rise. The ATCOs would continue to receive yearly increments until they are top of their scale. This would mean that every instructor was given the same 'bonus' for passing on their knowledge.
NATS has only just managed to part company with an ex college instructor who failed to validate at a Band 5 unit (a higher band than he had originated from), despite being given numerous lives. The college should not be sen as a ticket by some, to a higher level of pay, if they are not going to be any good. Despite yours and Alfamans protestations, there are still instructors at th ecollege who should be out on their ear - people who have not been valid for years - initially through inability, then through being able to sit at the college and let life pass them by.
Hell we even take people back into the college who are acknowledged as previously being poor instructors, who then disappeared abroad and fail to validate.
Is it any wonder that the college still has a reputation?
And yes Alfaman, before you ask, I have stated this to people at the college face to face...
Secondly, just because airlines are (quite rightly) whingeing over BAA charging, why does that mean that NATS should suffer even more at the hands of the regulator??
Quote:
...it is likely that they will put the economic regulator under intense pressure to deliver a tough settlement for NERL, particularly after the much criticised review by some customers of BAA charges...
NATS provides a world class service, often praised by its customers... BAA on the other hand...
Fair enough savings may have to be made and costs cut, but using the fact that BAA fleeces the airlines for a sub standard service is not an acceptable reason. When I buy things, I expect to pay more for quality items...
As for cost saving - only the other day on the intranet 'Pinboard' there was an advertisement stating (paraphrase)
"Does anyone require a hotel room in Fareham - we have booked one for a meeting which has been cancelled and we will get charged full rate even if we don't use it"
This 'advert' originated from the CTC.
Why are we still spending lots of money (and it is lots, I've attended meetings at the same hotel and have seen the cost) on meeting rooms when there are plenty at either CTC - (a mile down the road) or even at Swanwick (a whole 6 miles down the road)?? The meeting rooms are often greatly inferior to what we have in our own premises
I've asked the question before and been told it is to stop interruptions caused by having meetings in your own normal place of work... complete tosh! If you are at a meeting, you are at a meeting and therefore 'out of office' - just do not accept any disturbances!
Standard Noise
With regards to instructors at the college, it should not just be about the money they will get... people should apply because htey like to teach (and are good at it). The current system whereby everyone gets upgraded to band 5 when they instruct at DAT&Sis ridiculous.
Instead, why not give every suitable ATCO, regardless of the Band of unit they originate from, the same deal? Say a yearly payment on top of their normal salary when they are at the college, then, when it comes time to leave the college, a move to whichever unit they want (this will stop people staying at the college because they do not want to lose money going back to a 'low band' unit).
This is a much fairer way of doing it than the present system whereby someone from a band 2 unit gets a £20k pay rise whereas somoene from a band 5 unit gets a £1.5k pay rise. The ATCOs would continue to receive yearly increments until they are top of their scale. This would mean that every instructor was given the same 'bonus' for passing on their knowledge.
NATS has only just managed to part company with an ex college instructor who failed to validate at a Band 5 unit (a higher band than he had originated from), despite being given numerous lives. The college should not be sen as a ticket by some, to a higher level of pay, if they are not going to be any good. Despite yours and Alfamans protestations, there are still instructors at th ecollege who should be out on their ear - people who have not been valid for years - initially through inability, then through being able to sit at the college and let life pass them by.
Hell we even take people back into the college who are acknowledged as previously being poor instructors, who then disappeared abroad and fail to validate
. Is it any wonder that the college still has a reputation?
And yes Alfaman, before you ask, I have stated this to people at the college face to face...
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DotMac
One of the overtimers was ATCO1 working out of grade in an ATCO 2 seat and only part valid anyway....don't ask me to start saving money if management are burning it, and don't expect me to accept little or no pay rise if these wasteful practices continue unabated.
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anotherthing
Especially since BAA only owns 4% of NATS 
Fair enough savings may have to be made and costs cut, but using the fact that BAA fleeces the airlines for a sub standard service is not an acceptable reason. When I buy things, I expect to pay more for quality items...
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In these apparant dire times, my council tax has not gone down. Maybe I should copy and paste the bosses email and say that I would like a reduction in my council tax rate as I dont like paying such a high amount for their service (as it seems if airlines dont want to pay what we charge they dont have to)..... No? I didnt think so, but I pay it anyway as I have to and funnily enough they are most likely going to up it come April this year and with no payrise, I am going to be even worse off.
(Mis) trusting NATS, they most likely got wind of something from the airlines and have done the usual spin on it to make us feel guilty and pressured into keeping the airlines and all those thousands of employees going.... what crap! We dont work for an airline and how they run it is down to them and, not my concern. Dont try and make us feel guilty for any rough rides they are getting from the economy at the moment.
NATS likes us all to band together, eg: pensions, saving all these airlines that are going to the wall (even though the majority of the ones that have gone were buggered anyway and it was only a matter of time) and now the pay deal, all when it suits them.
I bet my new crappy pension that when times are steaming ahead in a few years and we are all on the way up and the rewards promised by NATS for 'helping' them out now would come to fruition ala a bigger payrise.... we will get squat. Eerily this rings truth from only a few months ago when we were all promised what a great payrise we would get if we voted the pension deal through.
Are memories really that short?
I also fully expect any redundencies made by NATS to be blamed on us ATCO's for any pay we recieve. It's NATS' great chance to get rid of a load of staff such as our valuable ATSA's and use the economic situation to put their spin on it so it doesnt look like their fault... oh how clever mister Barron!!
Strangely enough, this is all too convenient for the date for EFDS rearing its ugly head and then management dont have to say 'ooops, we got it wrong. More of you will be forced out now, sorry'.
They have probably calculated they can get rid of more staff and again, blame us greedy ATCO's, and make everyone feel guilty, so we go for no payrise please.. all smiles for a few months then guess what..... redundencies anyway!
BA did it recently, a chance to offload over a 1000 middle managers ( a NATS speciality in having lots of those too) using the econmic slump as the reason.... this is a great way of cutting back on staff with no comeback from said staff.
We are still pulling in a healthy profit. They just dont like that its not enough to finance their new business model.... NATS Island...only available to senior management and families, paid for by us workers and staffed by failed trainees.
If we are still raking in the millions, i will fail to be sympathetic to their apparant poverty, bread line claims
(Mis) trusting NATS, they most likely got wind of something from the airlines and have done the usual spin on it to make us feel guilty and pressured into keeping the airlines and all those thousands of employees going.... what crap! We dont work for an airline and how they run it is down to them and, not my concern. Dont try and make us feel guilty for any rough rides they are getting from the economy at the moment.
NATS likes us all to band together, eg: pensions, saving all these airlines that are going to the wall (even though the majority of the ones that have gone were buggered anyway and it was only a matter of time) and now the pay deal, all when it suits them.
I bet my new crappy pension that when times are steaming ahead in a few years and we are all on the way up and the rewards promised by NATS for 'helping' them out now would come to fruition ala a bigger payrise.... we will get squat. Eerily this rings truth from only a few months ago when we were all promised what a great payrise we would get if we voted the pension deal through.
Are memories really that short?
I also fully expect any redundencies made by NATS to be blamed on us ATCO's for any pay we recieve. It's NATS' great chance to get rid of a load of staff such as our valuable ATSA's and use the economic situation to put their spin on it so it doesnt look like their fault... oh how clever mister Barron!!
Strangely enough, this is all too convenient for the date for EFDS rearing its ugly head and then management dont have to say 'ooops, we got it wrong. More of you will be forced out now, sorry'.
They have probably calculated they can get rid of more staff and again, blame us greedy ATCO's, and make everyone feel guilty, so we go for no payrise please.. all smiles for a few months then guess what..... redundencies anyway!
BA did it recently, a chance to offload over a 1000 middle managers ( a NATS speciality in having lots of those too) using the econmic slump as the reason.... this is a great way of cutting back on staff with no comeback from said staff.
We are still pulling in a healthy profit. They just dont like that its not enough to finance their new business model.... NATS Island...only available to senior management and families, paid for by us workers and staffed by failed trainees.
If we are still raking in the millions, i will fail to be sympathetic to their apparant poverty, bread line claims
Last edited by privatesandwiches; 30th Jan 2009 at 17:22.
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"My council tax has not gone down".
Well of course it hasn't!
You have to pay for more Integration Outreach Co-ordinators, who will be setting targets and working 'on solutions to challenges'
These "Quality People" do not come cheap.
Well of course it hasn't!
You have to pay for more Integration Outreach Co-ordinators, who will be setting targets and working 'on solutions to challenges'
These "Quality People" do not come cheap.
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i'd like to think that those tasked with the responsibility for selecting the nats web photo of the day are safe from mr barrons cost cutting.
how can you possibly provide an air traffic service without these dedicated individuals
how can you possibly provide an air traffic service without these dedicated individuals
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I asked the RB about VR when he was at Swanwick for his bar steward session several weeks ago.
Therefore it must have been my idea and I want to be first in the stampede to get out!!!
However I expect it will various and many passengers that we have been carrying for years that will get the wheelbarrow full of £££ and disappear into the distance.
As an aside, I got my Swanwick locker and my fire training e-mail reminder was perfection!!!!!!! Well worth the top of the scale in my mind!! Never mind about inability to do the real job.
35+ years operational and I've had enough. Great job - shame about the peripheral garbage that accompanies it.
More savings identified. There appear to be a team of 3 - going by the pictures on page 2 - needed to produce Pulse. A bit OTT perhaps.
40612 now just a pile of corroding scrap in Arizona.
Therefore it must have been my idea and I want to be first in the stampede to get out!!!
However I expect it will various and many passengers that we have been carrying for years that will get the wheelbarrow full of £££ and disappear into the distance.
As an aside, I got my Swanwick locker and my fire training e-mail reminder was perfection!!!!!!! Well worth the top of the scale in my mind!! Never mind about inability to do the real job.
35+ years operational and I've had enough. Great job - shame about the peripheral garbage that accompanies it.
More savings identified. There appear to be a team of 3 - going by the pictures on page 2 - needed to produce Pulse. A bit OTT perhaps.
40612 now just a pile of corroding scrap in Arizona.
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So, this thread was about Pay 2009. I believe that RPI should be paid to those who stay in the company, but we need to keep the good people and lose the shirkers. The unions imho have the wrong attitude here and insist on voluntary redundancies. Nonsense, we all know the workers from the shirkers. Let’s have the cull. Why should I have a future where I have to work longer hours with more stress because the company have allowed some of my best colleagues to go. Yes, we may cut workload appropriately, but no doubt some bright spark will then say let’s work 30% faster and so the cycle starts again.
Mgt may look at all the comments on NATSNET from staff suggesting 3 day weeks and part-time working etc and look at the depts that these people work in. If they can suggest such a thing then they aint as busy as me and my colleagues.
This is of course about ‘managing staff expectations for pay award’. Maybe we should start ‘managing customer expectations’.
Mgt may look at all the comments on NATSNET from staff suggesting 3 day weeks and part-time working etc and look at the depts that these people work in. If they can suggest such a thing then they aint as busy as me and my colleagues.
This is of course about ‘managing staff expectations for pay award’. Maybe we should start ‘managing customer expectations’.