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UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

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UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

Old 11th Jan 2009, 11:58
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Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
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Latest Pay Round

ANYBODY GOT ANY INFO ON THE CURRENT PAY NEGOTIATIONS,

IT'S ALL GONE A BIT QUIET

WHO ARE GOING TO BE THE MAIN BENEFICIARIES?
tomtom2003 is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2009, 12:55
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Spink Pots
 
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What company and where?
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Old 11th Jan 2009, 13:05
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Well, for once, NATS pensioners should get 5% - not bad, eh?
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Old 11th Jan 2009, 14:10
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HD

Sounds good, where did you get that from?
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Old 11th Jan 2009, 16:59
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Don't think so HD. This year's pension increase will be based on the RPI for February 2009 which is published in March. Perhaps you are thinking of state pension increases which are payable in April 2009 but are based on the RPI for September 2008 which would be around 5%.
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Old 16th Jan 2009, 14:47
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Snoop UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

This is a Rumour Network after all, so has anyone else heard the following...

1. The details of the sale of the old Heathrow tower (realising 45 million) were kept quiet until after pension negotiations were completed - i.e. the profit although known, was not divulged to all parties.

2. The (not for profit investing) Airline Group are going to receive a 19 million dividend.

3. Management are playing hardball and are not negotiating over pay deal. They are whingeing about the fact that we are using the Aug 08 RPI as a base figure, although in the past they have insisted on using the Aug RPI for pay deals (when it was believed the following years RPI would rise, not fall). This is despite the fact they still use it as a basis to charge their customers.

4. The Union has even tried to suggest a middleground which has been dismissed out of hand.

5. Our powder is dry.

OK, I know number 5 is a bit of a stretch, even for a rumour network.

Anyone else been privy to rumours or able to substantiate those above??
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Old 16th Jan 2009, 14:58
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Who doesnt love a rumour...

well who doesnt love a good rumour... so:
1) I believe this to be fact... And totally dont put it past the powers that be
2) Also believe the airline group will get some variety of dividend this year... Not sure about the figure, but I cant see how they wont. As for not for profit, maybe as well be written on a sheet of tesco value toilet paper, for all its worth
3) Also heard this one, and well believe it too! In previous years, it was Aug RPI, we got it shoved down our throats, why arent the union doing the same?
4) Middleground has been offered, and from what i heard turned down. Heard the company say Pay Freeze, end of discussion.
5) 5 is a big stretch, even for this rumour mill... It was as dry as a desert for me on the pension talks, but if we wont take action over pension, will we really take action over a few quid of a pay rise...

Also heard a nastier rumour this week, but it really is totally totally unsubstantiated... Even for a rumour network, its not that a great an idea... Lets see what our union get for us, i'm not planning what i'm gonna spend my rise on, put it that way
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Old 16th Jan 2009, 16:07
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Let's face it though, we've rolled over and had our tummies tickled over pensions - the thing we said we'd never even contemplate compromising on. Now, management have us pretty much over a barrel regarding pay, WP's and anything else they want to alter/shaft us on. And we can hardly complain.....

Also, perhaps it's time we "joined the real world" once and for all. After all, I don't think anyone, in any trade, job or profession, is having an easy time at the moment. Perhaps we should be glad our jobs are safe and take the hits as they come.

Unless you're an ATSA/T&S grade that is. Or an engineer.....or anyone moving up to Scotland from Manchester.

Oh.
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Old 16th Jan 2009, 19:47
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Grrr

The YES voters also voted a NO pay rise without realising it!

Prospect and its membership have been rolled over a barrel and shafted BIG TIME.

The Bloody Red Barron has shot yet another group of employees down in flames.

No pay rise in 2009 means that I am earning less compared to last year if you add inflation from Jan 1st 2009.

What next, Prospect advocating a pay freeze?

Vote YES to save NATS.

Vote NO to upset Barron.
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Old 16th Jan 2009, 19:48
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WHO ARE GOING TO BE THE MAIN BENEFICIARIES?
NATS and its senior managers ............ s
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Old 16th Jan 2009, 20:53
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Well...voting yes has left management laughing and out to test the water thinking they can roll over the union as its members will just vote yes......well if the union recommend no then members will likely vote no...so management be warned! Biggest problem we got at the moment is they will look at the economic climate and how the public will view us with so many losing their jobs, and jump on this to force our hand. Also.....biggest issue is they are discussing redundancies........across the company, numbers to be announced very soon......nice way to maximise profits!! and [email protected]#*# the workforce
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Old 16th Jan 2009, 21:28
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Today's info from CRCO (just to cheer you up).

The Total Service Units in the EUROCONTROL region are forecast to grow by 2.1% (UK 1.4%) in 2008 (vs. 2007 actual). This forecast is 1.4% (UK 3.2%) below the previous 2008 forecast issued in September 2008.
The Total Service Units in the EUROCONTROL region are forecast to decrease by 3.4% (UK 6.2%) in 2009 (vs. revised 2008 forecast). This forecast is 5.8% (UK 9.2%) below the previous 2009 forecast issued in September 2008.
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Old 16th Jan 2009, 21:38
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And a "Total Service Unit" is........??????
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Old 16th Jan 2009, 21:55
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total service unit is a french owned garage that does fuel and maintenance...

RB can get stuffed, we should get a pay rise (even if only RPI). Most - maybe all? - units are short staffed. The reduction in traffic thats forecast is not enough to warrant reducing staff numbers (certainly operationally required staff), so we are still short staffed. Demand outweighs supply, and we are also in demand from other ATS providers, ergo, management should not be trying to have their cake and eat it, or the candle might lead to the powder!!

I would even work an hour for free too (but it will be the night of the clocks going forward)

I cant see our esteemed leaders getting much sympathy if there was a strike given that they have cut trainee pay, cut pensions, yet given themselves unnecessary cars and bonuses.
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Old 16th Jan 2009, 22:03
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And a "Total Service Unit" is........??????
A "Service Unit" is what ANSPs in Europe get paid for (the square root of the result obtained by dividing the maximum take-off weight (in metric tons) of the aircraft by 50, multiplied by the distance flown in 100s of km)
AND
a "Total" is a sum, an amount obtained by the addition of smaller amounts
see EUROCONTROL - Frequently Asked Questions
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Old 17th Jan 2009, 09:11
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Pelton,
Interesting points.
The formula for route charges seems as contrived as a certain ANSPs pay-banding formula, taking the square-root of MTOW divided by 50 etc.
If this is a standard formula, how come NATS route charges are higher? It is of course right that UK ATC should charge slightly more as it is allegedly one of the best ATC services in the world. Basic economics teaches that one should expect to pay slightly more for a premium-quality good or service.
I looked at the CRCO document and the traffic growth graph contained therein. Considering the the rapid growth in recent years, not much of a downturn yet then, (back to 2006ish so far). Just part of the largely greed-driven, boom-bust economic cycle I'm afraid.. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt(s).
Lots of departures from my local airport while I'm typing this, OPS normal for a Saturday morning in January.
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Old 17th Jan 2009, 14:15
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The formula for route charges is contrived but enshrined in International agreement. Its the same for all Eurocontrol ANSPS but each country sets its own unit rate to feed into the formula. There are a number of reasons why those rates differ. The UK recovers other costs as well as the pure NATS costs through its route charges which others don't but the main difference is because the actual cost of provision isn't reflected in the charging formula. It costs far more to provide Air Traffic Control in a complex busy environment than it does to provide service to large aircraft in the cruise and Air Traffic Control has a large element of fixed costs which are driven by the peak demand rather than the average load.

The problem for any ANSP in this and any other recession is that when routes are cut and frequencies reduced it immediately affects income because there are less flights but those cuts are usually off peak and you still need just as many staff and just the same infrastructure in the peak periods so the opportunities for cost saving are limited.
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Old 17th Jan 2009, 17:15
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If this is a standard formula, how come NATS route charges are higher?
As eglnyt has hinted, the formula is a means of sharing out each ANSP's total costs between all of its users. The square root formula seems a bit odd, I agree. It has been in place since the early 1970s (total cost recovery from en-route charges was, however, only achieved in the late 70s as it was phased in from 1974 on). I always assumed that the square root formula gives an approximation to the potential passenger payload of an aircraft, although I've never tried to do any analysis to confirm this.

ps I think that NATS is remarkably cheap, given that it is the only ANSP which has been established as a separate trading entity for long enough for any implicit state subsidy to have worked its way out of the system.
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Old 18th Jan 2009, 14:49
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Not looking good, any truth in the rumour that not only a pay freeze, but a hold on all increments/spine points as well, the income into the company is falling at an "alarming rate"
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Old 18th Jan 2009, 19:51
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not only a pay freeze, but a hold on all increments/spine points as well
Do I detect the distinctive clicking sound of the ratchet as the spiral spring is tightened?
i'm guessing your advocating a pay cut or a promotion Pelton?
Neither - I'm only providing facts, for what it's worth.
marvel at the accuracy of those waypoints.
Yes - with Google Earth or similar service I could give a location to one hundredth of a second - but where would my anonymity
be, if my desk could be identified within a couple of floors?

Last edited by PeltonLevel; 18th Jan 2009 at 20:05.
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