UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
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So, you guys are going to vote for a 2% pay rise, 3% at best, that will cover the period Jan 2009 to Dec 2010, no rise at all in Jan 2010?
You're not even going to ask for an underpinned deal on the extremely thin chance that economic growth might, just might, happen.
And you are basing this on the ability of NATS and the Union to predict the financial markets - the same financial markets they screwed up so fantastically with regards to the old pension?
In voting yes, you're also going to agree that NATS can open talks to reduce or withdraw the 2% if the Aug 09 RPI is less than -3.5%?
So you are basically voting yes to an agreement inprinciple, not even a firm agreement.
So, the fact that NATS uses the Aug 09 RPI for charges means nothing anymore. Except when it suits NATS.
Do you have credit card bills or loans? do you have savings? So you are happy that we won't even get a sniff of a payrise until August pay packet - and that is still in the balance.
Money that is sitting in NATS accounts accrueing interest when you could have used it to pay credit card bills/loans or accrued your own interest?
No vote from me.
You're not even going to ask for an underpinned deal on the extremely thin chance that economic growth might, just might, happen.
And you are basing this on the ability of NATS and the Union to predict the financial markets - the same financial markets they screwed up so fantastically with regards to the old pension?
In voting yes, you're also going to agree that NATS can open talks to reduce or withdraw the 2% if the Aug 09 RPI is less than -3.5%?
So you are basically voting yes to an agreement inprinciple, not even a firm agreement.
So, the fact that NATS uses the Aug 09 RPI for charges means nothing anymore. Except when it suits NATS.
Do you have credit card bills or loans? do you have savings? So you are happy that we won't even get a sniff of a payrise until August pay packet - and that is still in the balance.
Money that is sitting in NATS accounts accrueing interest when you could have used it to pay credit card bills/loans or accrued your own interest?
No vote from me.
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2% or 3%... to me it doesn't matter which it is... it is still a pay CUT.
vote "No" and tell everyone else to vote "No" - that's the only way the offer will get raised!!!
We need to get the unions back to the negotiating table with some idea of how the membership are feeling.
vote "No" and tell everyone else to vote "No" - that's the only way the offer will get raised!!!
We need to get the unions back to the negotiating table with some idea of how the membership are feeling.
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So, you guys are going to vote for a 2% pay rise, 3% at best, that will cover the period Jan 2009 to Dec 2010, no rise at all in Jan 2010?
You're not even going to ask for an underpinned deal on the extremely thin chance that economic growth might, just might, happen.
And you are basing this on the ability of NATS and the Union to predict the financial markets - the same financial markets they screwed up so fantastically with regards to the old pension?
In voting yes, you're also going to agree that NATS can open talks to reduce or withdraw the 2% if the Aug 09 RPI is less than -3.5%?
So you are basically voting yes to an agreement inprinciple, not even a firm agreement.
So, the fact that NATS uses the Aug 09 RPI for charges means nothing anymore. Except when it suits NATS.
Do you have credit card bills or loans? do you have savings? So you are happy that we won't even get a sniff of a payrise until August pay packet - and that is still in the balance.
Money that is sitting in NATS accounts accrueing interest when you could have used it to pay credit card bills/loans or accrued your own interest?
No vote from me.
You're not even going to ask for an underpinned deal on the extremely thin chance that economic growth might, just might, happen.
And you are basing this on the ability of NATS and the Union to predict the financial markets - the same financial markets they screwed up so fantastically with regards to the old pension?
In voting yes, you're also going to agree that NATS can open talks to reduce or withdraw the 2% if the Aug 09 RPI is less than -3.5%?
So you are basically voting yes to an agreement inprinciple, not even a firm agreement.
So, the fact that NATS uses the Aug 09 RPI for charges means nothing anymore. Except when it suits NATS.
Do you have credit card bills or loans? do you have savings? So you are happy that we won't even get a sniff of a payrise until August pay packet - and that is still in the balance.
Money that is sitting in NATS accounts accrueing interest when you could have used it to pay credit card bills/loans or accrued your own interest?
No vote from me.
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Originally Posted by aaaabbbbcccc1111
Just flogging a dead horse. It will be voted in. I am not even going to bother to fill my ballot paper in. As far as I am concerned we have already rolled over and had our tummies tickled. We are wide open now for more attacks on our T and C's and squabbling over a few percent here and there is probably the least of our worries.
...and you may be one of the few that actually deserve a pay freeze...
Last edited by RPIplus1; 30th Apr 2009 at 13:59.
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Whilst it may be argued that 'in the current climate' this is a fair offer, the fact remains if the unions had negotiated the pay deal prior to Jan 2009 when the economy was in a better state I dare say we would have got more!
It would be great if we could 'do a Nats management' with other financial areas. i.e. claw back some of the money we all paid for our homes now they have subsequently dipped in value!
It would be great if we could 'do a Nats management' with other financial areas. i.e. claw back some of the money we all paid for our homes now they have subsequently dipped in value!
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Angrel
The only major flaw in that is the fact that we only get one pay rise in 2 years - and the RPI was 4.8% when that pay rise should have been negotiated.
RPI or not, fuel prices etc are still rising...
Don't know whenwe will get the pay in our wages, it won't be in time for th eAug pay date as the RPI figure will need to have been published. Then it will take a couple of months for them to work out the pay rise what with SMART pensions etc.
Back pay might be in time for Christmas
lets hope the RPI in august is -3.4%. we may only get the 2% but it will be a REAL increase of 5.4%!! 
RPI or not, fuel prices etc are still rising...
Don't know whenwe will get the pay in our wages, it won't be in time for th eAug pay date as the RPI figure will need to have been published. Then it will take a couple of months for them to work out the pay rise what with SMART pensions etc.
Back pay might be in time for Christmas
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Interesting proposal. I'm happy that if the unions are willing to state that:
then they genuinely believe this and have negotiated as hard as they could. The implication is, of course, that if we don't like it then we vote no. If the statement then turns out to be true we'll be lighting fires in upturned oil drums.
I'll bet you a month's payrise it doesn't. The outlook is grim, no two ways about it. If we're going to stick by our guns and ask for 4.8% then we'd better be willing to take a 3% pay cut come next January. Frankly, I (and my bank manager) would prefer to see a more stable income than that.
The difference here is that the dividend is a one off payment. A pay rise is a commitment from now until forever that Mr. Actuary has to take into account, such that putting profits into payrises above RPI is unsustainable. I'm glad I kept my shares. Although of course the dividend doesn't come close to even a 1% rise, when the opportunity to buy more comes along I'll snap them up (based on my reckoning on the future of NATS).
True fact. Our boat sailed late last year when we all got sidetracked with the pensions debate and put off this negotiation. 20/20 hindsight. It is a fair offer; now. While I watch my friends lose their jobs around me (two in the last month), I'll take it, and be glad of it.
The trade unions believe that the above settlement is the best achievable by negotiation.
You're not even going to ask for an underpinned deal on the extremely thin chance that economic growth might, just might, happen.
£30 million into the Pension fund and £20 million into our pay rise seems to be a much better way of using those funds.
Whilst it may be argued that 'in the current climate' this is a fair offer, the fact remains if the unions had negotiated the pay deal prior to Jan 2009 when the economy was in a better state I dare say we would have got more!
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Is there an option to delay the ballot for as long as possible? This would give us a better idea of Aug 09 RPI and may help the "vote yes now voters" 
to make the correct decision. The union say "The ballot process will commence from the 21 May concluding on the 18 June." If there is no option to delay, do not make a decision till the last possible day.
If anyone is content to accept an unknown offer based on a global financial crisis then I would have to question your judgement.
Let's remind ourselves of some of the murky details........
The CEO has had at least a 9% pay rise (until he denies it or until we find out in June) and is going next April.
Dividends of £43.5 Million were paid out to shareholders despite the Pension regulators warning not to pay out if the Pension was "causing difficulties". BA, part owners of NATS are shareholders and had to fork out £350 Million in fines for crooked fuel surcharge price fixing and greedily accepted the cash (£17 Million) along with the rest of TAG.
Management are jumping ship and are leaving in droves with a shed load of dosh before the next financial year, because they know the **** will hit the fan when NSL goes down the toilet, TAG sell their shares, and NERL struggles to cope with Airlines going bust, swine flu, economic downturn, and a rapidly worsening pension scheme.
I apologise for sounding pessimistic, but I am a realist and there is no good news. However I am not prepared to be shafted by greedy NATS managers
who have their noses in the trough whilst spouting off how hard up we are.
My Vote will be NO , surprisingly enough
to make the correct decision. The union say "The ballot process will commence from the 21 May concluding on the 18 June." If there is no option to delay, do not make a decision till the last possible day.If anyone is content to accept an unknown offer based on a global financial crisis then I would have to question your judgement.
Let's remind ourselves of some of the murky details........
The CEO has had at least a 9% pay rise (until he denies it or until we find out in June) and is going next April.
Dividends of £43.5 Million were paid out to shareholders despite the Pension regulators warning not to pay out if the Pension was "causing difficulties". BA, part owners of NATS are shareholders and had to fork out £350 Million in fines for crooked fuel surcharge price fixing and greedily accepted the cash (£17 Million) along with the rest of TAG.
Management are jumping ship and are leaving in droves with a shed load of dosh before the next financial year, because they know the **** will hit the fan when NSL goes down the toilet, TAG sell their shares, and NERL struggles to cope with Airlines going bust, swine flu, economic downturn, and a rapidly worsening pension scheme.
I apologise for sounding pessimistic, but I am a realist and there is no good news. However I am not prepared to be shafted by greedy NATS managers
who have their noses in the trough whilst spouting off how hard up we are.My Vote will be NO , surprisingly enough
Last edited by Vote NO; 30th Apr 2009 at 15:03.
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So...let me get this right...if its voted in, then the actual 'pay rise' will be in our august pay packet...backdated to jan 09. Unless the RPI is worse than expected then it starts all over again?
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After the back lash of the supposed "YES vote" for the pension can anyone seriously vote "YES" for the pay ballot...What the hells wrong with you guys out there?? 
Do you feel we are only worth whats on offer while those making the offer sit back and get MORE than their worth!!!
Who is it that keeps the planes in the air..makes all the efforts to stop delays for the airlines.?? Not the managers thats for sure.
Don't just throw the towel in. Try to make a difference this time. Its your vote don't waste it ..use it!!
Do you feel we are only worth whats on offer while those making the offer sit back and get MORE than their worth!!! Who is it that keeps the planes in the air..makes all the efforts to stop delays for the airlines.?? Not the managers thats for sure.Don't just throw the towel in. Try to make a difference this time. Its your vote don't waste it ..use it!!
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However I am not prepared to be shafted by greedy NATS managers who have their noses in the trough whilst spouting off how hard up we are.
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DAL208
Almost correct.
If the RPI is worse than -3.5%, then there will be re-negotiations.
You can bet your bottom dollar that the 2% offer will be withdrawn.
For every 0.1% the the RPI is greater than -3.5% i.e. -3.4%, then we get a 0.1% addition to thebase 2%.
i.e. if RPI is -3.4%, our pay rise is 2.1%, RPI is -3.3% pay rise will be 2.2% etc to a maximum pay rise of 3%... backdated to Jan 09, no new pay rise until at least Jan 2011.
To find out what will happen, we have to wait for the August RPI figure.
Salary runs need to be done by mid month to be included in that months pay packet... I think cut off is the 14th of the month, certainly no later, but I think it could well be earlier.
So we have to wait for the Aug RPI figure to be published.
If it is lower than -3.5%, we start again.
If it is -3.5% or greater, we get the resultant pay, backdated to Jan 09. However, NATS are drafting in a specialist company to work out the back pay as it is seemingly complicated due to the SMART pensions. This will take a bit of time.
The earliest you can reasonably expect to get your pay increase is September pay packet - at a push.
I've been told by a couple of friends who are reps that they believe it may take as long as 2 months to sort the figures out i.e. October/November pay packet...
Almost correct.
If the RPI is worse than -3.5%, then there will be re-negotiations.
It is a condition of the deal that should RPI prove to be as or more negative than -3.5% in August 2009 that NATS and the NTUS will enter into early discussions to seek to address this issue.
For every 0.1% the the RPI is greater than -3.5% i.e. -3.4%, then we get a 0.1% addition to thebase 2%.
i.e. if RPI is -3.4%, our pay rise is 2.1%, RPI is -3.3% pay rise will be 2.2% etc to a maximum pay rise of 3%... backdated to Jan 09, no new pay rise until at least Jan 2011.
To find out what will happen, we have to wait for the August RPI figure.
Salary runs need to be done by mid month to be included in that months pay packet... I think cut off is the 14th of the month, certainly no later, but I think it could well be earlier.
So we have to wait for the Aug RPI figure to be published.
If it is lower than -3.5%, we start again.
If it is -3.5% or greater, we get the resultant pay, backdated to Jan 09. However, NATS are drafting in a specialist company to work out the back pay as it is seemingly complicated due to the SMART pensions. This will take a bit of time.
The earliest you can reasonably expect to get your pay increase is September pay packet - at a push.
I've been told by a couple of friends who are reps that they believe it may take as long as 2 months to sort the figures out i.e. October/November pay packet...
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What The Deal Really Says
The negotiations do not start again if the Aug 2009 RPI is more negative than -3.5.
What the deal offers is 2% backdated to Jan 2009 paid asap after the ballot finishes. If the ballot finishes on 18th June, then there is no reason why the backdated 2% cannot be in the July pay packet (I think getting it in for 30th June might be a push!). The longer the ballot is delayed, the longer before any money is paid if it is a yes vote.
There is no talk of the 2% being withdrawn, as this is the underpin. If RPI in Aug 2009 is between -1.8% and -2.7%, then there will be more money coming, up to a maximum additional 1%. Again, this will be backdated to Jan 2009 and all the monies will be fully pensionable.
If the Aug 2009 RPI is worse than -3.5%, then all the unions have agreed to do is talk with NATS. They haven't agreed to give anything away or to reduce salaries, simply to talk. That is what unions and management do. Any talks are not about unpicking the deal but about any savings that may need to be made elsewhere (bit i'm sure the rumour mill will still say otherwise).
As has been mentioned, NATS charging is based on the Aug RPI, but this isn't just the 2008 RPI, but also the 2009 RPI. If the Chancellor is forecasting it to be -3.0% in Septmenber, perhaps the union forecasts aren't too far out (again i'm sure some on here will want to spin the ability to forecast!).
At the end of the day, members will need to make a call themselves on whether this is a good deal or not. I have no idea what PB is being paid, and I don't give a flying F@#k either. What I am concerned about is what I get paid and I think that this gives me at least an RPI pay rise over the 2 years with the potential for a bit more depending on how bad the Aug 2009 RPI turns out to be.
Over and out
What the deal offers is 2% backdated to Jan 2009 paid asap after the ballot finishes. If the ballot finishes on 18th June, then there is no reason why the backdated 2% cannot be in the July pay packet (I think getting it in for 30th June might be a push!). The longer the ballot is delayed, the longer before any money is paid if it is a yes vote.
There is no talk of the 2% being withdrawn, as this is the underpin. If RPI in Aug 2009 is between -1.8% and -2.7%, then there will be more money coming, up to a maximum additional 1%. Again, this will be backdated to Jan 2009 and all the monies will be fully pensionable.
If the Aug 2009 RPI is worse than -3.5%, then all the unions have agreed to do is talk with NATS. They haven't agreed to give anything away or to reduce salaries, simply to talk. That is what unions and management do. Any talks are not about unpicking the deal but about any savings that may need to be made elsewhere (bit i'm sure the rumour mill will still say otherwise).
As has been mentioned, NATS charging is based on the Aug RPI, but this isn't just the 2008 RPI, but also the 2009 RPI. If the Chancellor is forecasting it to be -3.0% in Septmenber, perhaps the union forecasts aren't too far out (again i'm sure some on here will want to spin the ability to forecast!).
At the end of the day, members will need to make a call themselves on whether this is a good deal or not. I have no idea what PB is being paid, and I don't give a flying F@#k either. What I am concerned about is what I get paid and I think that this gives me at least an RPI pay rise over the 2 years with the potential for a bit more depending on how bad the Aug 2009 RPI turns out to be.
Over and out
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Breaking News...
LDV in trouble
Chrysler filing for bankruptcy
BAE systems to cut 500 jobs
Millions of private sector workers face pay freeze or cuts
Pay freeze looms for millions - Times Online
NATS ATCO's moan about 2% (potentially 3%) pay rise
LDV in trouble
Chrysler filing for bankruptcy
BAE systems to cut 500 jobs
Millions of private sector workers face pay freeze or cuts
Pay freeze looms for millions - Times Online
NATS ATCO's moan about 2% (potentially 3%) pay rise
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It will be voted in. I am not even going to bother to fill my ballot paper in. As far as I am concerned we have already rolled over and had our tummies tickled. We are wide open now for more attacks on our T and C's and squabbling over a few percent here and there is probably the least of our worries
Its this attitude towards the ballots that cause us problems.
If you think like that then of course its going to get voted in.
If the 30% that didn't vote over the pensions had voted then we may be in a different position now. (I know some people didn't get papers).
Even if you believe that its going to go through at least vote - its a protest vote - then at least management won't think we are totally spineless / don't give a crap. And the Union will too.
As has been said before the union is only as strong as its membership. If you aren't going to bother voting then you only weaken the union. Not management - in fact you empower those feckers.
I agree that our Ts&Cs are next on the agenda - but why not vote on this issue. Pay is a T&C too.
If you don't vote - either way - all you do is weaken the union.
If you agree - then vote yes and let the union & management know they've got it right
If you disagree then vote no and let them know that you are not prepared to be sold short.
Not voting is not an option
Rant over....