UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
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NATS Pay Offer 2009
Just read the details on ATCOs.co.uk.
In the spirit of working together my perception is that Prospect & PCS may have been too complacent!
We want a 1 year deal - what do we get? The rest of the details just depict that at the end of the day, what is in the deal is exactly what management wanted to be in there. Sure the foreplay up to the final offer kept our guys on their toes, probably at the amusement of 'The Management'. The article makes interesting reading, reference to management 22 times, reference to members/membership 7 times. This may seem petty, but its not hard to evaluate who exactly is in the driving seat and by the looks of it, they will be there for the foreseeable future........
In the spirit of working together my perception is that Prospect & PCS may have been too complacent!
We want a 1 year deal - what do we get? The rest of the details just depict that at the end of the day, what is in the deal is exactly what management wanted to be in there. Sure the foreplay up to the final offer kept our guys on their toes, probably at the amusement of 'The Management'. The article makes interesting reading, reference to management 22 times, reference to members/membership 7 times. This may seem petty, but its not hard to evaluate who exactly is in the driving seat and by the looks of it, they will be there for the foreseeable future........
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Cointreau.
The union guys do a good job, mostly, and no one says that they do not work hard but sometimes you can't help wondering who they are working for..us, the paying members..management or for themselves. There are always the odd few that want glory no matter how it comes..in all walks of life. The pension was a prime example of the union playing ball with management.
Yes we are fortunate to be offered something in this climate, but when the airlines and management have been handed obscene amounts on a plate it doesn't seem right for us to be the poor cousin in all this and to be handed ..or thrown..just the scraps.!!
Its your vote to do with as you please. .just asking that you use it wisely because you won't get another chance once the deed is done.
The union guys do a good job, mostly, and no one says that they do not work hard but sometimes you can't help wondering who they are working for..us, the paying members..management or for themselves. There are always the odd few that want glory no matter how it comes..in all walks of life. The pension was a prime example of the union playing ball with management.
Yes we are fortunate to be offered something in this climate, but when the airlines and management have been handed obscene amounts on a plate it doesn't seem right for us to be the poor cousin in all this and to be handed ..or thrown..just the scraps.!!
Its your vote to do with as you please. .just asking that you use it wisely because you won't get another chance once the deed is done.
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I was wondering what would happen if (and maybe it is a big "if"!!!) the RPI in Aug 09 wasn't quite as bad as all the doom and gloom predictions (or indeed maybe even slightly positive-this MAY be a big if I suppose
!!)?? What happens if the Aug 09 RPI is -1.7? or -1.0? Or any other higher figure?
Even -1.0 means a blended RPI of 3.8 over the two years, and by my maths, the MAXIMUM possible payrise of 3% being offered therefore means a raise of 0.8% BELOW inflation!!!! Yet again I do fully appreciate all the work put in by the union guys, but this deal is still rubbish. Who decided on the cut off point of -1.8%?!? We'd be shooting ourselves in the foot to vote this in as we surely can't vote on something which may or may not happen!! If this deal was a one year deal then yes, i'd seriously think about voting for it, but stretched over 2 years is also too much to ask for.
I am also thoroughly
ed off by being constantly told by NATSnet that we're "in dire financial trouble" and "facing a bleak outlook", yet they see fit to pay out massive sums in dividends and management payrises (probably the ones who need a payrise the least, what with their already massive salaries, and easily achievable bonuses based on the back of OUR hard work!!!) According to the barron's recent propaganda, paying for staff terms and conditions came first on the list of things our profits went towards, and yet here we are, being offered a measly 1% pa, while watching £44m being given away, purely because the board of directors are all airline group employees!!! I wonder what the dividend will be next year if we post another profit, meanwhile we'd probably be offered a pay freeze and an attack on our pension?!?
I would encourage everyone to use their vote because to be apathetic about it is a waste of a potentially crucial vote. I, for one, am voting No, as are most of my colleagues that I spoke to about it yesterday!!!
The union may say
well in that case maybe its time we moved beyond simple negotiation and started "talking" in other ways!!!!!
FB
!!)?? What happens if the Aug 09 RPI is -1.7? or -1.0? Or any other higher figure?Even -1.0 means a blended RPI of 3.8 over the two years, and by my maths, the MAXIMUM possible payrise of 3% being offered therefore means a raise of 0.8% BELOW inflation!!!! Yet again I do fully appreciate all the work put in by the union guys, but this deal is still rubbish. Who decided on the cut off point of -1.8%?!? We'd be shooting ourselves in the foot to vote this in as we surely can't vote on something which may or may not happen!! If this deal was a one year deal then yes, i'd seriously think about voting for it, but stretched over 2 years is also too much to ask for.
I am also thoroughly
ed off by being constantly told by NATSnet that we're "in dire financial trouble" and "facing a bleak outlook", yet they see fit to pay out massive sums in dividends and management payrises (probably the ones who need a payrise the least, what with their already massive salaries, and easily achievable bonuses based on the back of OUR hard work!!!) According to the barron's recent propaganda, paying for staff terms and conditions came first on the list of things our profits went towards, and yet here we are, being offered a measly 1% pa, while watching £44m being given away, purely because the board of directors are all airline group employees!!! I wonder what the dividend will be next year if we post another profit, meanwhile we'd probably be offered a pay freeze and an attack on our pension?!?I would encourage everyone to use their vote because to be apathetic about it is a waste of a potentially crucial vote. I, for one, am voting No, as are most of my colleagues that I spoke to about it yesterday!!!
The union may say
The trade unions believe that the above settlement is the best achievable by negotiation
FB
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To tie us down for 2 years is unacceptable, bearing in mind the unknown future economic climate and the fact that most of the present NATS management will have departed on to their next victims in 11 months time with massive payouts. This is not so much about money for me, more of a principle.
Vote NO
Vote NO
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Just out of interest, as our OJTI training hours are paid as a percentage of our basic wage per hour, will the increase in salary include backdated OJTI hours? I know it's only peanuts but again, it's the principle!!
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So what if Aug 09 RPI is less negative than -1.8% ? Say for example 0% or 1% ? Now I know what the predictions are, however wearing my optimistic hat 
, with banking sectors now doing well and possible early signs of green shoots, bearing in mind no one knows what RPI will be in 4 months time, then we will be screwed to 3 % over 2 years whilst NATS reaps the benefit at our expense .
, with banking sectors now doing well and possible early signs of green shoots, bearing in mind no one knows what RPI will be in 4 months time, then we will be screwed to 3 % over 2 years whilst NATS reaps the benefit at our expense .
Last edited by Vote NO; 1st May 2009 at 10:38.
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However if the RPI is actually worse than -2.8%, which ALL forecasts are predicting (the forecast produced by BoE shown on this site was produced in Dec 08 and is already out of date .. see the Chancellors forecast from the budget of -3.0%) , then we have an underpin of 2% pay increase. I'd rather go for the underpin which guarantees me at least 2% pay increase than have it open ended and possibly get nothing. There is more chance of the underpin kicking in than the cap.
At the end of the day, the offer will either satisfy people or it won't. The most sensible comments on here recently refer to apathy. If you are ok with the offer, then vote yes, if not, then vote no, but whatever you do VOTE!
Not voting sends the signal to management that we don't actually care what they do and it weakens any negotiating power the unions have. If you don't vote then you will always get exactly what you deserve. At the end of the day, the union will act on the result of the ballot, so make your vote count!
At the end of the day, the offer will either satisfy people or it won't. The most sensible comments on here recently refer to apathy. If you are ok with the offer, then vote yes, if not, then vote no, but whatever you do VOTE!
Not voting sends the signal to management that we don't actually care what they do and it weakens any negotiating power the unions have. If you don't vote then you will always get exactly what you deserve. At the end of the day, the union will act on the result of the ballot, so make your vote count!
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I tend to agree, however the same forecasters didnt see the global credit crunch right under their noses only three months away ............... .So I won't be listening to them now
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The underpin of 2% is hogwash IMHO.
In all previous years of strong economy we have had the first year deal based on the previous Aug RPI (the known RPI) and then the subsequent 1 or 2 years (depending on the length of the agreement) based on a guesstimate of what might happen (often an underpining of RPI+0.5% or something similar).
Now we are getting an underpinned 2% (that's to last us 2 years), based on an AUG RPI of 4.8%.
The extra 1% that we might get is based on the subsequent year.
We have totally reversed the way we negotiate pay with regards to RPI.
Yes, we are in difficult times, but we have just given away a shed load of money in dividends.
Management have stated that NERL needs to make £45M in savings. When challenged about this and the rationale behind giving away our dividend management stated that we needed to make savings of £45M every year, and that the sale of the CTB was a one off so it didn't count.
That's not an answer, the fact is the sale of the CTB covered the savings requirement for the first year, meaning that if we had kept the money, the subsequent years would have been less of a burden as we would have been a year ahead. But no, let them carry on with their poor financial strategy whilst they plead poverty.
I've stated this before during the pension debate, but it I'll say it again. It is my firm belief that management will do everything in their power to cut Ts and Cs and pay and pension, even to th extent of throwing money away in dividends etc if it helps their cause later when they come back, cap in hand and claim 'We can't afford to pay the pension' etc.
Whatever you believe - make sure you vote. As Stupendous man rightly says, not voting only weakens the union, whatever way you want to vote. If management see another 30% 'no show' like they did in the pension vote, they will just assume that union memebrship don't really care.
If you're not going to vote, why even bother paying your union subs? You're just throwing away your money.
In all previous years of strong economy we have had the first year deal based on the previous Aug RPI (the known RPI) and then the subsequent 1 or 2 years (depending on the length of the agreement) based on a guesstimate of what might happen (often an underpining of RPI+0.5% or something similar).
Now we are getting an underpinned 2% (that's to last us 2 years), based on an AUG RPI of 4.8%.
The extra 1% that we might get is based on the subsequent year.
We have totally reversed the way we negotiate pay with regards to RPI.
Yes, we are in difficult times, but we have just given away a shed load of money in dividends.
Management have stated that NERL needs to make £45M in savings. When challenged about this and the rationale behind giving away our dividend management stated that we needed to make savings of £45M every year, and that the sale of the CTB was a one off so it didn't count.
That's not an answer, the fact is the sale of the CTB covered the savings requirement for the first year, meaning that if we had kept the money, the subsequent years would have been less of a burden as we would have been a year ahead. But no, let them carry on with their poor financial strategy whilst they plead poverty.
I've stated this before during the pension debate, but it I'll say it again. It is my firm belief that management will do everything in their power to cut Ts and Cs and pay and pension, even to th extent of throwing money away in dividends etc if it helps their cause later when they come back, cap in hand and claim 'We can't afford to pay the pension' etc.
Whatever you believe - make sure you vote. As Stupendous man rightly says, not voting only weakens the union, whatever way you want to vote. If management see another 30% 'no show' like they did in the pension vote, they will just assume that union memebrship don't really care.
If you're not going to vote, why even bother paying your union subs? You're just throwing away your money.
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then we will be screwed to 3 % over 2 years whilst NATS reaps the benefit at our expense
And maybe its my mis-reading of the proposal, but if the RPI is less than -3.5% then the whole thing will be re-negotiated anyway, so surely that means there is NO underpinning at 2%?!? And if this DOES happen, that would also suggest to me that any pay rise isn't going to be seen until after the Aug 09 RPI is announced, otherwise they'd have to take all that "lovely" back pay, back from us until any new deal is agreed? Or am I missing something?!?
FB
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Fly bhoy
I was under the same impression - the article released by the Union is not very clearly written.
However Jonny B Good who is involved with the Union has stated on the previous page of this thread that the 2% will be paid upon receipt of a 'yes' vote (though it won't hit pay packets until July as the ballot is on 18th June - why so long I don't know, pension vote was pushed through quicker).
Then any other increment will be backdated once the Aug 09 RPI is known. If the Aug RPI is less than -3.5% than there will be talks about how to make savings elsewhere - which sounds ominous.
As far as I am concerned, this is a pay cut however it is dressed up, with fuel prices recently going up and to do so again in September (after the AUGRPI figure is published). The AUG RPI figure that counts is AUG08.
This is how management have always wanted us to work before.
I was under the same impression - the article released by the Union is not very clearly written.
However Jonny B Good who is involved with the Union has stated on the previous page of this thread that the 2% will be paid upon receipt of a 'yes' vote (though it won't hit pay packets until July as the ballot is on 18th June - why so long I don't know, pension vote was pushed through quicker).
Then any other increment will be backdated once the Aug 09 RPI is known. If the Aug RPI is less than -3.5% than there will be talks about how to make savings elsewhere - which sounds ominous.
As far as I am concerned, this is a pay cut however it is dressed up, with fuel prices recently going up and to do so again in September (after the AUGRPI figure is published). The AUG RPI figure that counts is AUG08.
This is how management have always wanted us to work before.
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Genuine question: What if (hypothetically) we got a one-year deal for 2009 of 4.8%, based on the Aug 08 RPI. If the Aug 09 RPI is, as forecast, -3% or worse, what happens then?
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My reading of it is that the TU want the 2% paid right away... probably because they feel NATS wont want to go as far as to actually take it back as part of any 're-negotiation'.
My assumption is that this will pass a vote with ease and the 2% will be in June pay. A supplementary will be planned in time for September pay (in the event we end up getting more than 2%) or it will be back to the negotiating table if it's required.
My assumption is that this will pass a vote with ease and the 2% will be in June pay. A supplementary will be planned in time for September pay (in the event we end up getting more than 2%) or it will be back to the negotiating table if it's required.
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Me Me Me Me
According to Jonny B Good - a Union bod - the ballot finishes 18th Jun. Will not hit pay packet until July in that case as 18th is past the cut off date for the June pay run
According to Jonny B Good - a Union bod - the ballot finishes 18th Jun. Will not hit pay packet until July in that case as 18th is past the cut off date for the June pay run
When does the ballot open and close? when do NATS publish the annual results?
I reckon most if not all votes will be cast before we hear about the latest (record) profits.
I reckon most if not all votes will be cast before we hear about the latest (record) profits.
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The union say "The ballot process will commence from the 21 May concluding on the 18th June."
NATS financial report.........around 26th June as per last year ! Very convenient for management. That is why we should delay the vote till after the financial report is published.
Which makes me even more suspicious
This really is playing into managements hands Why didn't the unions change the date to finish after the huge profits are published? Let me guess........so you can get your pay "rise" quicker 
NATS financial report.........around 26th June as per last year ! Very convenient for management
. That is why we should delay the vote till after the financial report is published."The regulatory accounts were approved by the Board on 26 June 2008 and
signed on its behalf by
Finance Director ______________________ Nigel Fotherby"signed on its behalf by
Which makes me even more suspicious
This really is playing into managements hands Why didn't the unions change the date to finish after the huge profits are published? Let me guess........so you can get your pay "rise" quicker Last edited by Vote NO; 1st May 2009 at 16:28.
