UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
Disappointed
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I don't think it'd be fair, or professional, or even right of us to start picking out individuals by name for a slating other than the usual suspects who ask for it anyway.
And quite frankly, if we don't start standing up over the things we really ought to defend ourselves against, then we're the ones to blame......the buck stops with us this time I'm afraid.
Besides, if I started to listed all of the management/lazy types I held responsible for the frittering away of cash in past times, then quite frankly I'd be here for hours and hours and hours.....
It's our company, it's time we stood up and fought for it. Simple as that.
And quite frankly, if we don't start standing up over the things we really ought to defend ourselves against, then we're the ones to blame......the buck stops with us this time I'm afraid.
Besides, if I started to listed all of the management/lazy types I held responsible for the frittering away of cash in past times, then quite frankly I'd be here for hours and hours and hours.....
It's our company, it's time we stood up and fought for it. Simple as that.
Join Date: Jan 2005
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"It's our company, it's time we stood up and fought for it."
already too late for some of us, and probably for a good few more.
same old problem, though. The issue here is not simply a case of an annual pay rise. There is far more to it than that, and the money factor is only one part of the overall problem. Here we see (yet again) ATCOs arguing about how much money they should get, and the rest of us trying to argue a case for retention within the Company. Game over for us as long as the ATCOs fail to admit that there is a (safety/workload) case for having sufficient support staff, and then have the balls to stand up to retain them. ( unless of course you think there isn't a case for having support staff and you can and will do it all yourselves
) Like I said earlier, the support tasks are not going away - they are just being redistributed to yourselves in many cases. Whatever happened to the argument for providing a SAFE and EFFICIENT air traffic service?? 
yep, I accept you have to argue the case for extra pay, but you've already blown your strength and potential for aggressive strategy at the negotiating table by rolling over on the pension changes, and now you're all fannying around waiting to see what Mgmt have in mind for you next about pay, conditions, rosters, contracts, NERL/NSL - you name it.
Prospect and its members must draw a line in the sand and do it now! You must look further than just the pay issue. If you don't stop the rot now, then you are making the rod that will help to break your own backs later on.
FWIW, I am certain you will receive 100% support from PCS and its members - FFS, they sorely need to know that you really and truly value them and their input as part of the ATC service, and they definitely need your support just to remain a viable part of the operation in the future.
already too late for some of us, and probably for a good few more.
same old problem, though. The issue here is not simply a case of an annual pay rise. There is far more to it than that, and the money factor is only one part of the overall problem. Here we see (yet again) ATCOs arguing about how much money they should get, and the rest of us trying to argue a case for retention within the Company. Game over for us as long as the ATCOs fail to admit that there is a (safety/workload) case for having sufficient support staff, and then have the balls to stand up to retain them. ( unless of course you think there isn't a case for having support staff and you can and will do it all yourselves
) Like I said earlier, the support tasks are not going away - they are just being redistributed to yourselves in many cases. Whatever happened to the argument for providing a SAFE and EFFICIENT air traffic service?? yep, I accept you have to argue the case for extra pay, but you've already blown your strength and potential for aggressive strategy at the negotiating table by rolling over on the pension changes, and now you're all fannying around waiting to see what Mgmt have in mind for you next about pay, conditions, rosters, contracts, NERL/NSL - you name it.
Prospect and its members must draw a line in the sand and do it now! You must look further than just the pay issue. If you don't stop the rot now, then you are making the rod that will help to break your own backs later on.
FWIW, I am certain you will receive 100% support from PCS and its members - FFS, they sorely need to know that you really and truly value them and their input as part of the ATC service, and they definitely need your support just to remain a viable part of the operation in the future.
Join Date: Jan 2005
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only if you made it whilst you were bent over the desk in the Manager's office, happily and willingly receiving the latest instalment of why NATS' policies are good for you.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Even your dog knows how crap the pay deal is! 
I'd strongly suggest you get in touch with the union and get a new voting form, unless you're going to vote yes, in which case let Fido finish off the rest of it!
I'd strongly suggest you get in touch with the union and get a new voting form, unless you're going to vote yes, in which case let Fido finish off the rest of it!
Join Date: Jul 2003
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I am amused by White Harts "line in the sand". I would have thought that it would have been blown away by all the bluff and bluster of the unions and by all the hot air here on Pprune. If you are all going on strike for an extra 2-3% then you have my respect although I shall eat my hat together with an extra dollop of humble pie for dessert if you do. In my opinion if you did not strike against privatisation in principle and stealing your pension worth potentially hundreds of thousands of pounds to each individual then striking in the depth of a recession/depression is a non-starter and the management know that. I am sure that your previous record with regard to strike or work to rule action or more accurately non-action speaks volumes.
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DC10RealMan
you have hit the nail on the head sir. We won't strike over pay, management and our union know it.
The fact that 30% of people couldn't even be arsed to return the pension ballot form says it all.
I think the pay offer is derisory considering all other things alongside it (dividend payment, Barrons latest spiel, reshuffling of jobs in certain departments etc).
However our union, considered weak by many members, has been weakened further by our apathy. They have no clout when it comes to negotiations because management know the membership will roll over and lets it's belly be rubbed.
If only there was another Union option but I think it needs 30% of the workforce to join it to have it recognised...
you have hit the nail on the head sir. We won't strike over pay, management and our union know it.
The fact that 30% of people couldn't even be arsed to return the pension ballot form says it all.
I think the pay offer is derisory considering all other things alongside it (dividend payment, Barrons latest spiel, reshuffling of jobs in certain departments etc).
However our union, considered weak by many members, has been weakened further by our apathy. They have no clout when it comes to negotiations because management know the membership will roll over and lets it's belly be rubbed.
If only there was another Union option but I think it needs 30% of the workforce to join it to have it recognised...
Join Date: Mar 2009
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anotherthing
I'm sure if there was another union option that would put the workers first then I think you would get a lot more than 30% to join it..do you know of one.?
I don't know anyone yet who is saying yes to the payrise but what's the betting it comes out with a "YES" majority..
postal votes??? call me cynical but hey...
I'm sure if there was another union option that would put the workers first then I think you would get a lot more than 30% to join it..do you know of one.?
I don't know anyone yet who is saying yes to the payrise but what's the betting it comes out with a "YES" majority..
postal votes??? call me cynical but hey...
Disappointed
Join Date: May 2007
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As I'm a bit further left of Marx and Lenin, I was prepared to strike against privatisation, and the changes to the pension scheme. But, to be honest, I wouldn't have the cheek to strike over the pay deal.....not really anything to do with the doom and gloom being proffered at the moment.... just a personal thing.
But if it comes to compulsory redundancies, once again, I'd be prepared to put my money where my mouth is, without hesitation, and walk out to support my colleagues.
The very fact that when it comes down to it we don't stick together en masse when faced with these issues, as in the past, is the very crux of our undoing as a workforce and a company. And, the most galling thing is therefore, we're reaping what greed and a lack of unitity has sown.
But if it comes to compulsory redundancies, once again, I'd be prepared to put my money where my mouth is, without hesitation, and walk out to support my colleagues.
The very fact that when it comes down to it we don't stick together en masse when faced with these issues, as in the past, is the very crux of our undoing as a workforce and a company. And, the most galling thing is therefore, we're reaping what greed and a lack of unitity has sown.
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This could be the straw that breaks..etc
Its obvious management and the unions think we will sit and take the crap. Maybe this time the worm will turn.. Our unions should not have made such a big case for the "YES" votes in other matters, but they know who are the weak members and seem to target them. Giving one sob story after another.
Its obvious management and the unions think we will sit and take the crap. Maybe this time the worm will turn.. Our unions should not have made such a big case for the "YES" votes in other matters, but they know who are the weak members and seem to target them. Giving one sob story after another.
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I suggest you use a device called a telephone tomorrow to contact Prospect to get the address. Oh, by the way you can get the address through an even newer invention called the internet.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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anotherthing,
I just read some of your very long post...hopefully PPRuNe will quote it.
:
Where to start?
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/358...ml#post4960394
You mention that the proposed pay deal and other recent cost savings is to raise profits, but actually I don't think it's quite that straight forward. I think it's really to reduce the cost-base (ongoing cost of running the company) to please the regulator and the airlines come the CP3 agreement.
This has already been mentioned by a number of managers and also the result when assimilating the different pieces of information available, but the official line always seems to suggest it's to make a one-off cost saving. That deceit p'ss me off.
That said, I'm not yet convinced this is the appropriate way forward as the airlines will always be unhappy even if the service were free. Just look at some of the airline's comments provided to the CAA under the CP3 consultation.
The pay deal offered can't really be justified to my mind, particularly given all the concessions of recent and that most people I know, who were already working more than their salaried hours, are being forced to do so even further to given the recent redundancies. I don't know what the alternative will end up being (I suspect we'll end up being worse off), but it doesn't half seem like some people up-top are being two-faced. Considering how difficult the pension's discussions were claimed to be, this pay deal must surely be surmountable.
It would certainly be interesting working-to-rule...might reduce the stress, in the short-term at least.
I just read some of your very long post...hopefully PPRuNe will quote it.
:
Where to start?
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/358...ml#post4960394
You mention that the proposed pay deal and other recent cost savings is to raise profits, but actually I don't think it's quite that straight forward. I think it's really to reduce the cost-base (ongoing cost of running the company) to please the regulator and the airlines come the CP3 agreement.
This has already been mentioned by a number of managers and also the result when assimilating the different pieces of information available, but the official line always seems to suggest it's to make a one-off cost saving. That deceit p'ss me off.
That said, I'm not yet convinced this is the appropriate way forward as the airlines will always be unhappy even if the service were free. Just look at some of the airline's comments provided to the CAA under the CP3 consultation.
The pay deal offered can't really be justified to my mind, particularly given all the concessions of recent and that most people I know, who were already working more than their salaried hours, are being forced to do so even further to given the recent redundancies. I don't know what the alternative will end up being (I suspect we'll end up being worse off), but it doesn't half seem like some people up-top are being two-faced. Considering how difficult the pension's discussions were claimed to be, this pay deal must surely be surmountable.
It would certainly be interesting working-to-rule...might reduce the stress, in the short-term at least.
Last edited by 11K-AVML; 1st Jun 2009 at 21:45.
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Ask most pilots which piece of airspace in their opinion is the safest?
Most, if not all would say the UK.
I hope in 10 years time when I ask commercial pilots the same question, the financial guts have not been ripped out of NATS and in its place is a less safe flying experience for our friends?
I thought that NATS was attempting to reduce the symptoms of stress from the work place, but then on the other hand begins to alienate the folk that keep planes apart and the business viable?
ATCOs, ATSAs and Engineers are the core of our company, these are the folk that help to prevent death over Great Britain and they are not doing too bad a job...so far, but then again, what is the next cost cutting measure going to be?
Most, if not all would say the UK.
I hope in 10 years time when I ask commercial pilots the same question, the financial guts have not been ripped out of NATS and in its place is a less safe flying experience for our friends?
I thought that NATS was attempting to reduce the symptoms of stress from the work place, but then on the other hand begins to alienate the folk that keep planes apart and the business viable?
ATCOs, ATSAs and Engineers are the core of our company, these are the folk that help to prevent death over Great Britain and they are not doing too bad a job...so far, but then again, what is the next cost cutting measure going to be?
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Experienced ATCO's that cost too much in wages are next . 55+ and you will probably be offered VR soon. Experience obviously counts for SFA in NATS now. Its cheaper to bring the kids in from college at less than half the wage and cap their wages under a new contract 
in NATS now. Its cheaper to bring the kids in from college at less than half the wage and cap their wages under a new contract