Aus Expats - would you go home (with poll)
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DP love you.......like a lost brother
DD, agree wholeheartedly with you. You have'nt sent any piccys of the ME lately. Sean will make the Foley-Lewis clan 3 for 3 soon.
Last edited by DirtyPierre; 26th Sep 2005 at 11:39.
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just thought I'd add my 2 (insert currency here)
I've been following the conversation with some interest - especially seeing I was mentioned a couple of times 
I'd add a couple of points in reply to comments:
ANSA
(I mean what sense does it make to send a guy who has just spent a couple of years vectoring his arse off into Dubai, to Brisbane Oceanic?????)
Oceanic is hog heaven - about the only place in the room where I get to do everything that an en-route controller can do. More than enough sequencing and holding (although not as many in a row usually as DXB, and with a bit more room to move
)
Pinniped
There are several guys that did recently go back, one was from UAE, you should all know him and he was given Oceanic I think.
Now he had also done radar in Oz before leaving and all the UAE redar stuff too, but he wasn\'t unrealistic enough to moan about where he was put. I mean, the company are under no obligation to reemply you.
If they have a shortage on TOPS or Ocean and you want a job, the choice is pretty clear.
Actually, you're pretty close - I was also offered Macquarie, but that was too close to Plazbot
actually, even the same aisle is too close......
Tweety
I know a controller who spent 18 years with ASA who has worked all the old sydney sectors incl the old busy Sy Arr N & S Bn arr S CG app, UAE area, one of The busuiest Toronto sectors (if not oneof the busiest in North America) incl approach and working during the 9/11 terrorist attack, and with all that experience still cant get a job back with ASA
autobiographical? Perhaps you should show them the carpet?
Having done the returning thing, perhaps I could make the following points:
for me, timing is everything - I know that won't be much comfort to Ferris or ANSA or any others looking, but that's the way it worked for me. I just kept in touch and waited for the reasons to change from "there's no jobs here" to "come and see us when you get back"
the training I did on my return was not lengthy - I did have to sit through TAAAAAAATS days 1-9 again
, but there wasn't much more to it than that
DD - say hello to the English for us
Hi to all in UAE - remember me to the dwarf......
regards
Wyvern
I'd add a couple of points in reply to comments:
ANSA
(I mean what sense does it make to send a guy who has just spent a couple of years vectoring his arse off into Dubai, to Brisbane Oceanic?????)
Oceanic is hog heaven - about the only place in the room where I get to do everything that an en-route controller can do. More than enough sequencing and holding (although not as many in a row usually as DXB, and with a bit more room to move
)Pinniped
There are several guys that did recently go back, one was from UAE, you should all know him and he was given Oceanic I think.
Now he had also done radar in Oz before leaving and all the UAE redar stuff too, but he wasn\'t unrealistic enough to moan about where he was put. I mean, the company are under no obligation to reemply you.
If they have a shortage on TOPS or Ocean and you want a job, the choice is pretty clear.
Actually, you're pretty close - I was also offered Macquarie, but that was too close to Plazbot
actually, even the same aisle is too close...... Tweety
I know a controller who spent 18 years with ASA who has worked all the old sydney sectors incl the old busy Sy Arr N & S Bn arr S CG app, UAE area, one of The busuiest Toronto sectors (if not oneof the busiest in North America) incl approach and working during the 9/11 terrorist attack, and with all that experience still cant get a job back with ASA
autobiographical? Perhaps you should show them the carpet?
Having done the returning thing, perhaps I could make the following points:
for me, timing is everything - I know that won't be much comfort to Ferris or ANSA or any others looking, but that's the way it worked for me. I just kept in touch and waited for the reasons to change from "there's no jobs here" to "come and see us when you get back"
the training I did on my return was not lengthy - I did have to sit through TAAAAAAATS days 1-9 again
, but there wasn't much more to it than thatDD - say hello to the English for us
Hi to all in UAE - remember me to the dwarf......
regards
Wyvern
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Yeah. Looking to stir up the masses on various web sites. I threw you a gang sign as you walked through my turf. The bigger question is WHAT DO YOU HAVE BETWEEN THOSE!!
Back on topic, Airservices is offering many project type gigs to ex controllers if you are keen people. I know first hand (well technically second) of a person offered 3 just this week.
Back on topic, Airservices is offering many project type gigs to ex controllers if you are keen people. I know first hand (well technically second) of a person offered 3 just this week.
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Hey Tob, would this be the same ex-controller who was home visiting just very recently and went to visit one of the Centers to catch up with a few of the ex work mates. Word has it that the Center Manager wanted to speak to this person while he was there about coming back (because they were so short) but couldn't get away from a meeting to do so!!
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Lost brother
Traffic
Good to see you are about still. Thought you had fallen off the planet.
I am your lost brother, really, ah yes I remember those days, still haven't forgotten the old times. I do miss those days my friend.
drop me a PM and touch base mate!
To Wyverns
No not autobiographical, just fact provided by the colleague concerned. Although this is the second time someone has mentioned carpets (not sure why), so I will have to ask some more enquiring questions as to why this is so!!
It would seem that I may not have the whole story, but then who can you really believe on this or any other website, controllers are known for spreading a lot of incorrect goss to further their own ends!
TTFN
Good to see you are about still. Thought you had fallen off the planet.
I am your lost brother, really, ah yes I remember those days, still haven't forgotten the old times. I do miss those days my friend.
drop me a PM and touch base mate!
To Wyverns
No not autobiographical, just fact provided by the colleague concerned. Although this is the second time someone has mentioned carpets (not sure why), so I will have to ask some more enquiring questions as to why this is so!!
It would seem that I may not have the whole story, but then who can you really believe on this or any other website, controllers are known for spreading a lot of incorrect goss to further their own ends!
TTFN
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Gee I seemed to hit the “bitter little person” pretty well didn’t I?
I haven’t rabbited on about loyalty, after all, I left probably before you joined after your 5 extraordinary jobs.
BTW I had worked in this industry in Oz in 2 jobs…in 6 different places, not that that matters one way or the other.
Ohhh I forgot, I used to have a paper round and work on a farm and was a clerk too…BFD!
But then pulling pints and working as a “bouncer” really assists in the field of ATC I guess?
Try listening to your rants yourself…you seem to play the man as soon as someone has the temerity to disagree with your point of view. Perhaps a clue to a past career, or perhaps why you have had 5 different ones?
As if anyone would actually care who you are?
My mentioning of the time I served in OZ, was purely to show that I had actually “done my time” and was not one of those that does half a dogwatch (which was the snipe anyway, it doesn’t seem that you had done a full one) starts bitching and moaning and then goes somewhere else to do the same thing.
As TT said, when we all left Oz back in the dim dark past, we were told that we would never be reemployed by AsA again…we left with that in mind, and still went.
Do you see any of us making any mention of how busy we are, how much experience we have and that IF, we ever go back to Oz, we should be able to cherry pick where we go?
Clearly not.
Actually AsA would be showing a bit of loyalty to their staff by putting returnees into the sh!t jobs in TOPS and Ocean etc, what I want to know is why do you think the training bond is a bad idea?
If you work for an airline and they pay for your training/endorsement, you are usually bonded to them until such time as they determine you have paid their investment back.
Anyway enough of this BLP. Perhaps he can go onto a 6th career and leave the rest of us alone?
TT thanks for the good wishes, had a beer with the “skippy” in the unit. Charlie says to say hi. Had a good time for a couple of days, moule Provencale and blonde German beer, under the poplars, next to the Notre Dame…ahh, then back here L
Tweety, edit your post…don’t say “I” unless you want people to know who you are!!!
DP…haven’t caught any fish worth mentioning for bl00dy ages, so no decent photos!! Now that I’m back I’ll give the tuna a bit of a tickle up. Someone nailed a 150kg black marlin here the other day….that would look good on the wall!
But I do have a new digital camera and housing for underwater work, so I’lll play with that too.
Euronator…
They won’t wear Oz as a point of hire( still we can see what we can see)…but first class train tickets through Turkey can’t be cheap!!
Fox3..you know you don’t want to be in Oz…admit it, you are only 4 hours from Cyclones Disco in MCT.
Wyverns...how the hell are you old mate?
Be nice or I'll post the photos of you halfway up a jebel for all to see how unfit you are!
I haven’t rabbited on about loyalty, after all, I left probably before you joined after your 5 extraordinary jobs.
BTW I had worked in this industry in Oz in 2 jobs…in 6 different places, not that that matters one way or the other.
Ohhh I forgot, I used to have a paper round and work on a farm and was a clerk too…BFD!
But then pulling pints and working as a “bouncer” really assists in the field of ATC I guess?
Try listening to your rants yourself…you seem to play the man as soon as someone has the temerity to disagree with your point of view. Perhaps a clue to a past career, or perhaps why you have had 5 different ones?
As if anyone would actually care who you are?
My mentioning of the time I served in OZ, was purely to show that I had actually “done my time” and was not one of those that does half a dogwatch (which was the snipe anyway, it doesn’t seem that you had done a full one) starts bitching and moaning and then goes somewhere else to do the same thing.
As TT said, when we all left Oz back in the dim dark past, we were told that we would never be reemployed by AsA again…we left with that in mind, and still went.
Do you see any of us making any mention of how busy we are, how much experience we have and that IF, we ever go back to Oz, we should be able to cherry pick where we go?
Clearly not.
Actually AsA would be showing a bit of loyalty to their staff by putting returnees into the sh!t jobs in TOPS and Ocean etc, what I want to know is why do you think the training bond is a bad idea?
If you work for an airline and they pay for your training/endorsement, you are usually bonded to them until such time as they determine you have paid their investment back.
Anyway enough of this BLP. Perhaps he can go onto a 6th career and leave the rest of us alone?
TT thanks for the good wishes, had a beer with the “skippy” in the unit. Charlie says to say hi. Had a good time for a couple of days, moule Provencale and blonde German beer, under the poplars, next to the Notre Dame…ahh, then back here L
Tweety, edit your post…don’t say “I” unless you want people to know who you are!!!
DP…haven’t caught any fish worth mentioning for bl00dy ages, so no decent photos!! Now that I’m back I’ll give the tuna a bit of a tickle up. Someone nailed a 150kg black marlin here the other day….that would look good on the wall!
But I do have a new digital camera and housing for underwater work, so I’lll play with that too.
Euronator…
They won’t wear Oz as a point of hire( still we can see what we can see)…but first class train tickets through Turkey can’t be cheap!!
Fox3..you know you don’t want to be in Oz…admit it, you are only 4 hours from Cyclones Disco in MCT.
Wyverns...how the hell are you old mate?
Be nice or I'll post the photos of you halfway up a jebel for all to see how unfit you are!
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Ok a couple of things DD. Unlike you when I left, I was told by the Centre manager at the time, and the then FIR manager (now HATCO), that if I ever want to come back, to circumvent HR, and go straight to them and I would be welcomed back. I guess I was loyal enough.
Secondly, the whole training bond idea is an absolute joke, because noone will employ you overseas with less than 5 years experience anyway.
Finally, I'll say again, I am not wanting to "cherry pick", the good jobs, and I for one am not calling TOPS or Oceanic, "**** Jobs", as I have worked the old big board full procedural, and it is a hell of a job. I was just saying that having done full on radar sequencing in a very tight, confined airspace for all this time, I would have thought the best use of those skills would be to be placed on a busy arrivals group, or (shock, horror!) maybe even TMA.
Bottom line (so I can finish this argument up and let you get back to fishing stories, cos we are all glued to the screen with fascination), and getting back to the original question, what it would take me to go back is,
1. A level of pay consistent with my level of experience as an ATC'er.
2. A posting that recognises and uses my abilities and experience as an ATC'er.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Secondly, the whole training bond idea is an absolute joke, because noone will employ you overseas with less than 5 years experience anyway.
Finally, I'll say again, I am not wanting to "cherry pick", the good jobs, and I for one am not calling TOPS or Oceanic, "**** Jobs", as I have worked the old big board full procedural, and it is a hell of a job. I was just saying that having done full on radar sequencing in a very tight, confined airspace for all this time, I would have thought the best use of those skills would be to be placed on a busy arrivals group, or (shock, horror!) maybe even TMA.
Bottom line (so I can finish this argument up and let you get back to fishing stories, cos we are all glued to the screen with fascination), and getting back to the original question, what it would take me to go back is,
1. A level of pay consistent with my level of experience as an ATC'er.
2. A posting that recognises and uses my abilities and experience as an ATC'er.
Nothing more, nothing less.
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DD
Pot to kettle, pot to kettle....
I'm yet to see where you have done anything other than make personal attacks. Not much else in your posts. You make a lot of stuff up, but don't address what's put to you.
There are people who do care very much who the various people posting are. They are big into shooting the messenger rather than hearing the message. You should know that. Or is all that FIGJAM clouding your vision?
By all means, continue with your faulty logic and mud slinging. Making yourself very popular with the "sh!t jobs" comments.
Yes, I do. Is that the royal "WE "? eg.
So yes, YOU are saying that. I , once again, have said no such thing. You keep trying to say that I have, when the only person saying it is yourself.
Read the thread thru and see who started the mud-slinging. Might be 'mirror time' for you.
If the job was attractive, the T&Cs good, workplace harmonious etc, why would you need a bond? Obviously there is something wrong if people can't wait to fly the coop. Organisations that employ bonds know they are offering something sub-standard and have to use artificial means to retain staff. Flies in the face of the 'free-market' philosophies expounded by those who made AsA a 'business'. If they really believe their own rhetoric, why would they artificially stifle the 'free-market' of labour? Those (left) in the M.E. are about to receive big payrises due to those market forces, as the shortage bites. As read in the ME forum about the EK bond, airline employers of choice (such as CX) don't bond their pilots. So yes, whilst some employers use bonds, look at who they are. Likewise, you don't see many guys bailing out of Eurocontrol at their first opportunity. AUH ACC now has a 2-year bond for new-joiners, and they aren't training you up from anywhere. Says a lot really.
Try listening to your rants yourself…you seem to play the man as soon as someone has the temerity to disagree with your point of view
I'm yet to see where you have done anything other than make personal attacks. Not much else in your posts. You make a lot of stuff up, but don't address what's put to you.
There are people who do care very much who the various people posting are. They are big into shooting the messenger rather than hearing the message. You should know that. Or is all that FIGJAM clouding your vision?
By all means, continue with your faulty logic and mud slinging. Making yourself very popular with the "sh!t jobs" comments.
Do you see any of us making any mention of how busy we are, how much experience we have and that IF, we ever go back to Oz, we should be able to cherry pick where we go?
As the seal said (piniped to you illiterates) you will be stood in great stead when you return the first TL slot that comes up. I mean, who on earth that has stayed behind is going to roll you?
Read the thread thru and see who started the mud-slinging. Might be 'mirror time' for you.
what I want to know is why do you think the training bond is a bad idea?
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Good things come to those who wait...
No-one has mentioned the TCU Consolidation Project; Adelaide, Perth and Sydney WILL be moved to Melbourne regardless of how fluid the timing of each event may be, and the Approach controllers required will have to come from somewhere...
But worth keeping in mind what a Manager whispered in my ear... Sydney do not want to train interstate controllers for the move... they want Ab-initio Approach trainees (possibly read as ex-RAAF controllers, although those are my thoughts only).
Good luck to those seeking to return to Oz... best wishes for those happy in paradise... wherever your paradise may be...
No-one has mentioned the TCU Consolidation Project; Adelaide, Perth and Sydney WILL be moved to Melbourne regardless of how fluid the timing of each event may be, and the Approach controllers required will have to come from somewhere...
But worth keeping in mind what a Manager whispered in my ear... Sydney do not want to train interstate controllers for the move... they want Ab-initio Approach trainees (possibly read as ex-RAAF controllers, although those are my thoughts only).
Good luck to those seeking to return to Oz... best wishes for those happy in paradise... wherever your paradise may be...
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ferris, your igonrance knows no bounds. Your knowledge of business is intensly poor. Firstly, the fact that you have so much 'experience' outside ATC does not bode well for you....."jack of all trades, master of none", experience is also gained by being good at what you do. The mere fact that you consider modern business principals, aka free market philosophies as being equal to both parties is ridiculous. Do you honestly mean to tell us all that companies really care that much for their employees before they consider their own profit margins, get real. Bonds are there to protect a company's interests whether they are training or relocation costs. The concept of 'free market' is that employees are free to move, any company not providing some sort of protection of this is foolish. Sure, we can all try and grasp the 'tree hugging' philosophy of THE COMPANY LOVES ME THEREFORE WILL GIVE ME A WARM FUZZY FEELING WHEN I WALK THROUGH THE DOORS feeling but in the end the company is looking after it's own interst and will use whatever method proves to be the cheaper alternative based on a cost to company formula.
One day you may actually stay with something long enough to grasp these small basics, in the mean time Good Luck.
Cat out
One day you may actually stay with something long enough to grasp these small basics, in the mean time Good Luck.
Cat out
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Sadly .. I probably agree with ASA 
Someone leaves my company (for better or worse), they go off to foreign or national pastures and spend some years earning much more than me and better benefits (potentially). Then for whatever reason they come back and expect the company which employ us both to pay us the same salary ... yeah right.
Loyalty and seniority still has a price I hope. Mercenaries who go off in search of wilder dreams and pay get no less respect for doing so, but expecting to come back on the same salary and seniority as others of their generation who stuck with it ?? **** off.
Someone leaves my company (for better or worse), they go off to foreign or national pastures and spend some years earning much more than me and better benefits (potentially). Then for whatever reason they come back and expect the company which employ us both to pay us the same salary ... yeah right.
Loyalty and seniority still has a price I hope. Mercenaries who go off in search of wilder dreams and pay get no less respect for doing so, but expecting to come back on the same salary and seniority as others of their generation who stuck with it ?? **** off.
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Ignorance?
Actually, Cat, I reckon it might be you who doesn't have much clue. It's good that you demonstrate your contempt for the idea that human capital might be important. Gives the 'prospectives' an idea of what to expect when they get there- management from the dark ages.
Do a google search for 'human capital' and see what drops out. Might drag you into the 80's!!
While you are there, try a definition of 'free market'. Is it really that wild an idea that it might apply equally to employers, as employees? Read what Scott Voight is saying about people not showing up for courses etc., and think about what you are spouting. When you have a bit of a read about what happens in well-run companies (clearly you've never worked at one), you might find out that a main driver of satisfaction is not $$, it's feeling valued and respected, being able to contribute- shocking, pinko "'tree hugging' philosophy", but there you go. Much easier for talentless fish in small ponds- like yourself- to expound the virtues of bonds, isn't it?
ps Are you in the habit of replying to posts a year after they are written?
Hempy- who is asking for "more money"? Do you really think service more important/valuable than experience?
Do a google search for 'human capital' and see what drops out. Might drag you into the 80's!!
While you are there, try a definition of 'free market'. Is it really that wild an idea that it might apply equally to employers, as employees? Read what Scott Voight is saying about people not showing up for courses etc., and think about what you are spouting. When you have a bit of a read about what happens in well-run companies (clearly you've never worked at one), you might find out that a main driver of satisfaction is not $$, it's feeling valued and respected, being able to contribute- shocking, pinko "'tree hugging' philosophy", but there you go. Much easier for talentless fish in small ponds- like yourself- to expound the virtues of bonds, isn't it?
ps Are you in the habit of replying to posts a year after they are written?
Hempy- who is asking for "more money"? Do you really think service more important/valuable than experience?
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Hempy you really think the training finishes at the end of the supposed $300,000 course they give you? The training as an Air Traffic Controller should never stop, and is an ongoing constant process. By leaving Australia and going to a much busier, intense part of the world ATC wise, the individuals are accelerating that training process. From a personal point of view, in Australia I would never be issuing NOTAMS, grounding unairworthy aircraft, filing incident reports, and sequencing a trail of 20 or 30 aircraft with no help from a FLOW or any FLOW tools(ie. deciding the sequence myself and achieving it myself) all in one shift. There are valid arguments to say we shouldn't be doing that here either, but the fact remains we are, and so as a result of that, we are more experienced than our fellow controllers of the same years experience who stayed back in Australia.
If you look at this from AirServices point of view, yes they have spent money initially training us up, and in return we have given at least 5 years service before leaving. But what they are getting back by reemploying us on a salary that recognises our experience and ability, is not only a controller that has that original training and 5 years experience, but also a lot of qualifications and training that they didn't have to pay for. They get a controller who has been on an incident investigation course, a Centre Supervisor course, a Crtical Incident Stress Management course, and someone who has backed those courses up with extensive practical experience in each of those areas. I would say from Airservices point of view, they should be rubbing there hands together at the prospect of getting a freebie such as this.
As Ferris said we are not necessarily expecting more money, but we are expecting to be paid a salary that recognises our knowledge and experience. If that is hard for the guys who stayed in Oz to swallow, well stiff.
If you look at this from AirServices point of view, yes they have spent money initially training us up, and in return we have given at least 5 years service before leaving. But what they are getting back by reemploying us on a salary that recognises our experience and ability, is not only a controller that has that original training and 5 years experience, but also a lot of qualifications and training that they didn't have to pay for. They get a controller who has been on an incident investigation course, a Centre Supervisor course, a Crtical Incident Stress Management course, and someone who has backed those courses up with extensive practical experience in each of those areas. I would say from Airservices point of view, they should be rubbing there hands together at the prospect of getting a freebie such as this.
As Ferris said we are not necessarily expecting more money, but we are expecting to be paid a salary that recognises our knowledge and experience. If that is hard for the guys who stayed in Oz to swallow, well stiff.
Last edited by AirNoServicesAustralia; 3rd Nov 2006 at 02:56.
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I missed this thread the first time round and have just spent a pleasurable 30 min absorbing the whole thing. It was worth it for the "****-off" from the moderator alone
said the ****-offer:
"I don't have any objection with people being paid the market rate, but why should they step right back in to career progression and seniority as though they had never even left ??"
You would have to admit that seniority counts for nothing here. Another angle, I have noticed a few faces reappearing from the sandpit, then dissappearing again. Maybe they were bored. Perhaps ASA is not willing to spend the extra time/money training an exexpat on TMA for them to just take the rating back to the sandpit on completion? I think it is reasonable for ASA to park exexpats in positions of convenience for a sufficient time to discover if they have really returned, or are just wanting a paid holiday, paid professional development or will be dissatisfied with their lot and, erm, ****-off.
ANSA says:
"but we are expecting to be paid a salary that recognises our knowledge and experience"
Judging by the last CA, the ATC here have no such qualms and continue the race for the bottom. Please keep up your high standards which will maximise my income. I understand those expats that do return do so at a negotiated rate. Not the bottom of the scale, not the top. Think of all the fun of waiting for increments again.
"I'm a much better controller for leaving"
Practically a "wise man from the east..."
Got a good laugh out of Cat Poo, lay off the catnip pal
said the ****-offer:
"I don't have any objection with people being paid the market rate, but why should they step right back in to career progression and seniority as though they had never even left ??"
You would have to admit that seniority counts for nothing here. Another angle, I have noticed a few faces reappearing from the sandpit, then dissappearing again. Maybe they were bored. Perhaps ASA is not willing to spend the extra time/money training an exexpat on TMA for them to just take the rating back to the sandpit on completion? I think it is reasonable for ASA to park exexpats in positions of convenience for a sufficient time to discover if they have really returned, or are just wanting a paid holiday, paid professional development or will be dissatisfied with their lot and, erm, ****-off.
ANSA says:
"but we are expecting to be paid a salary that recognises our knowledge and experience"
Judging by the last CA, the ATC here have no such qualms and continue the race for the bottom. Please keep up your high standards which will maximise my income. I understand those expats that do return do so at a negotiated rate. Not the bottom of the scale, not the top. Think of all the fun of waiting for increments again.
"I'm a much better controller for leaving"
Practically a "wise man from the east..."
Got a good laugh out of Cat Poo, lay off the catnip pal